One is only religious because one fears hell

[pnewton]

NOW do you understand why some atheists dislike/critisize religion?

I will never understand why atheists criticize religion. As to you question, I would disagree that I am only religious for fear of Hell. That thought rarely crosses my mind. I do not thing it right to roll the elimination of Heaven into any speculation, because Heaven is part an parcel of the nature of God. The elimination of Heaven changes the nature of both Man and God, so the question is beyond answer for me.

 

[pnewton]

Really? “All the real sources”?

The real source of happiness is love, not Hollywood pop culture B.S. love, but real love of God and neighbor. Not sex, not food or drink, not material accumulations.
…

Modern civilization has traded the gold of blessedness for gold-plating of pleasure. It saddens me to think of those for whom happiness lies in such transient pleasures. All the things mentioned above are addictive precisely because they never fulfill anyone. Socrates said that no harm can come to a good man. All it would take to harm most people today is a removal of some of their goodies. Mankind is lesser than it once was.

 

[kch86]

I will never understand why atheists criticize religion.

The motives are different from person to person. As an atheist, I saw religion as, at worst, something harmful, and at best, a benevolent lie. And because I placed a high value of truth, no matter how inconvenient, I couldn’t support religion even in its most benevolent forms, and I would criticise it, unlike some other atheists, not on the basis of the crimes committed in its name, but on the simple fact that I believed it to be contrary to truth.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Proverbs 9:10 “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,” Key here is the word *“beginning.” * We also know that God is Love. As we grow in understanding, we move from doing things out of fear to doing them out of a pure, loving grace from God. This is a move towards joy, and away from fear of punishment.

Just as a child may be taught what will harm him, the same child will later learn why his parents worry for his safety. Later, the child will grow and learn how vast and deep is his parent’s love for him. He will grow to be a parent himself, creating a new being, literally, out of that love. Our Heavenly Father wants so much more for us than for us to merely fear Him! He desires our full Communion with him. :heaven:

No greater price was ever paid than that of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, no greater love shown than His inviting us to partake of His Resurrection power.

We may begin with a respectful reverence for God’s commandments, but know that Christ taught us that “the greatest commandment is love.”
“Love faileth not!” Fear not, God is calling us to joy! :angel1:

 

[pnewton]

The motives are different from person to person. As an atheist, I saw religion as, at worst, something harmful, and at best, a benevolent lie. And because I placed a high value of truth, no matter how inconvenient, I couldn’t support religion even in its most benevolent forms, and I would criticise it, unlike some other atheists, not on the basis of the crimes committed in its name, but on the simple fact that I believed it to be contrary to truth.

Let me clarify. I will never in my gut understand or be able to empathize with an atheist that is critical of theism in general, or of Christianity in particular.

 

[Carlan]

When I think of death, yes, I fear hell. When I make choices day to day hell rarely enters my mind. When I was a child I indeed feared getting in trouble with my parents. However as I grew up I didn’t so much fear getting into trouble as I feared letting my parents down.

I think that’s much like our relationship to God. In the early stages perhaps we fear the angry and just God. As we mature in spirituality and understand the pure love that God is, we fear not his punishment but losing our connection and relationship to that love and source of life, joy, and peace.

On a day to day basis of moral choices I make my choices based on wanting a strong relationship to God and the fullness of life walking in His path brings. I do not contemplate my immediate choice possibly sending me to hell.

For example, I forgive not because I fear not doing so will send me to hell but rather I forgive because I truly believe its the path of happiness, joy and peace both in this life and the next. Does someone not cheat on their spouse because of fear of being caught? Or do they refrain from cheating out of love and wanting to hold onto that special relationship? Obviously both motivations lead to the same result but one is much richer and more fulfilling than the other…

What you say about the fears you decribe reminds me of the Truth that " fear is the beginning of wisdom". We pray!
Peace, Carlan

 

[bcprincess]

I return to my thesis - this is what religion does to people. It convinces them to trade in all the real sources of pleasure and happiness and contentment in the only life we know we’ve got, for a Door #2 that Monty Hall promises to open for you, assuming you’re fortunate enough to die in the right circumstances.

I did not become a Christian until 2 days before my 38th birthday.

For as long as I could remember I had been pretty miserable, suffering from both fits of rage and deep depression. I am sure I partook of all the “real sources” of pleasure and happiness that you are referring to, being quite a hedonistic person, but was I happy NO.

Was I plagued by guilt because I was rebelling from a religous upbringing NO I had no religous upbringing to rebel against.

So here we are over 11 years later, have my circumstance been joy inspiring, in many ways no because in that time I have lost 2 brothers, 1 sister, 1 nephew, my mother had a severe health scare, my daughter had a double mastectomy, my other daughter had a traumatic birth and had to have an emergency C section after a very long labour because the baby was stuck, I was diagnosed with lupus, my husband had an accident which damaged his spine and I had to look after him for a long time, while he brought a whole new meaning to the word grumpy, my grandson who was supposed to be being brought up by us as a “permanent” thing from when he was 5 weeks old was taken back by his mum without a minutes notice after 5 and a half years of living with us, one of my daughters decided she wanted gender reasignment (or a sex change as it is also known). As I speak my son who already had several health problems became very ill well over a year ago and has been in pain every day, on top of the other symptoms he has chronic fatigue and sleeps about 19 hours on an average day and maybe 23 on a bad day, he does have a few good days but they are very few and far between. One of my children has had several suicide attempts and of course we have the usual financial and other strains as any family.

Have I had joy every day, even in the pain, yes I can honestly say that I have, no depression and no fits of rage, although obviously sadness over different circumstances.

Funny, when I first became a Christian I thought I was lucky because I had already had the opportuntiy to do plenty of sinning! But as time passed I realised what I had been missing by not living in Gods will.

If I could get a free pass to sin, with no repurcusions I would give it a miss.

Nothing beats the joy I feel now

 

[kch86]

Let me clarify. I will never in my gut understand or be able to empathize with an atheist that is critical of theism in general, or of Christianity in particular.

Well, I guess it turned out that on closer inspection Christianity, and Catholicism in particular, wasn’t contrary to truth after all.

Funny, when I first became a Christian I thought I was lucky because I had already had the opportuntiy to do plenty of sinning! But as time passed I realised what I had been missing by not living in Gods will.

If I could get a free pass to sin, with no repurcusions I would give it a miss.

Nothing beats the joy I feel now

Thank you for sharing. I’m so sorry about your circumstances, past and present, but I am very happy for you that you are able to find such strength.

And I have no doubt that Christianity is the foundation for that strength. I know that from my own subjective perspective, I have been able to face unfortunate circumstances of my own with greater strength and even a smile. And even as an atheist, I could see that certain aspects of my behaviour which I didn’t understand to be immoral could in some way result in my long-term unhappiness.

 

[Cristiano]

I honestly doubt I can make my point with any more clarity than you have for me just now. “What has happiness got to do with anything?” “So what is the point in all our pleasant diversions in life?”

I return to my thesis - this is what religion does to people. It convinces them to trade in all the real sources of pleasure and happiness and contentment in the only life we know we’ve got, for a Door #2 that Monty Hall promises to open for you, assuming you’re fortunate enough to die in the right circumstances.

You have a thesis but you do not do anything to prove it. I do not see any assumptions and I do not see any argument from the assumptions that prove your thesis, thus until this point the thesis is only a specif belief.

 

[PeterGStanley]

I read someone claiming religion is evil - I completely disagree - The real reason they do their evil deeds is that they’re human. Humans are very smart, very capable; and when we want something, we generally find some way to get it, even if that means killing someone or committing genocide or any other evil. Some evil people hide behind the banner of religion and do their evil - others do it right out in the open but most people religious or not don’t do these things.Religion does not cause you to do evil but it certainly doesn’t prevent you from doing evil. Let’s stop pretending and put the blame where it belongs - on our own human nature.

As for Church teaching they apply to the followers - if your not part of the Church they don’t apply to you because you don’t believe - unless you come to believe and come in to the church - so why would it bother you - your not bound by any of the doctrine and we as Catholic are not complaining about it.

 

[StevenFrancis]

Let’s all be honest with ourselves. Would you really go to church every Sunday, go to confession, not commit adultery, etc. If there were no heaven or hell? No reward or punishment?

Keep everything about Catholicism the same just take out heaven and hell. Even though you know God exists and he has laid down rules for mankind to follow, would you really follow them? We have to admit that religious people, their main motivation is to enter heaven, but most importantly, to avoid hell. I’m not saying its bad that thats how religious people are. I’m just saying that one should recognize that deep down its all about self interest. If God tells me to not drink alcohol, he only tells me not to do it, he doesnt mention any punishments that will occur if i do drink. Would i really abstain from alcohol?We only do things that benefir us. Even if it is helping poor children. We either do it because of religious purposes or because it makes us feel good. If thats how God created us that so be it. But doesnt it sound a little disturbing that thats how we are.

Hmmm. While there were times in my life where this may have been true, I don’t think it is anymore. I pray that I am being honest with myself that I am walking with the Lord because I PREFER His ways, and I am with his Church because it is where I am most fulfilled and happiest as a human being. No…I am not here out of fear of hell. In fact, I’m not certain that this idea has played a roll in my faith journey much at all. As I submit more and more of my self to the Father through our Lord Jesus Christ, I am further and further removed from impure motivation. I don’t know if I’m an oddity, and I really don’t care, but I’m where I want to be, because I want to be here in a real, positive, and motivated sense. I am beginning to despise what is evil. Having said all that, I must stress that this is not a boast. I am not bragging. Everything I have, right down to the ability to love the Church and goodness is a grace of God inspired in me by the Holy Spirit. I claim no special knowledge, or higher consciousness, or any virtue, not granted me by God alone. I am dust. By grace, I am privileged to love the Lord and his ways, and have come to despise satan and his ways, and it is real to me. More real than anything else I have ever felt in my over 1/2 century of life. Praise be to Jesus Christ, and thanks be to God.

Blessings,

Steven

 

[empther]

I

did not become a Christian until 2 days before my 38th birthday.

For as long as I could remember I had been pretty miserable, suffering from both fits of rage and deep depression.

Bishop Sheen wrote a short article about melancholy.

Depression has a physical basis. It is an imbalance of neurotransmitters and requires medication.

Melancholy is different. “it is a horrifying sense of barren activity, romantic nothingness, and the futility of life itself.”

The person tries to escape with physical pleasures. This makes it even worse. Nero was one of history’s great sensualists and also one the great melancholics.

Having a good time actually accentuates the soul’s realization that ‘something is wrong with this picture’. The Book of Ecclesiates is famous for its expression, “Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.”

Happiness only comes from hope of good things to come. But the soul is not made to be happy with winning the lottery. The soul wants the infinite, and that can only be God.

---

Aside: the “depression” of children and young adults is often this lack of seeing the infinite goodness of God ahead of us. *** Unless they also have*** physical depression, it will pass when they find God.
Somebody should tell that to psychologists.

 

[StevenFrancis]

Without heaven and hell do you still abstain from doing mortal and venial sins. Theres no prize at the end, why not just fall into temptation when the next man/woman tempts you? I mean why not? There’s no one your going to respond to right? You got nothing to lose?

Are these questions symbolic of an actual thought process that you believe people go through? I know they’re intended as rhetorical questions for establishment of argument, but the fact is that there is heaven and hell, and there is good and evil. I would argue this even with someone who is not religious. There ARE good people who avoid sin, who are not Christian, and don’t fear hell, or anticipate heaven.

I myself was almost convinced of Atheism once because of this very fact. That I could conceivably be a good person and not be involved with God. But then you have to start looking at the philosophy involved. If it is possible for one to be “good”, then this implies that there IS a good. A universal good. Some natural and inborn standard against which to judge our own actions. Conscience. We also know inherently that there is a value to life. To our lives, and the lives of others, and when we violate these principles, the vast majority of us know we have violated a universal principle without ever having to be told. We hide what we do “wrong” from the time we’re children not wishing to provoke the ire of our parents. It just makes sense that the universe operates in the same set of principles. By the grace of God, I was quickly able to dispense of Atheism in my life in spite of the best efforts of Ayn Rand and my “intellectual” peer group at the time. Now…I wasn’t Christian either. In fact I ended up Buddhist for quite some time before finding myself in this life with Christ and his Church, and that’s a long story. But if there are people who possess the attitudes you’re describing in your rhetorical questions here, it is my deeply held belief that they have not fully employed their own God given faculty of reason, with a properly formed conscience. Why they haven’t done so may vary from person to person, but I can just about guarantee that it is not because they don’t know it’s wrong. They know their ideas are wrong at some level. They just have such an aversion to the implications of the truth, that they find it to be worth their effort to develop psychological constructs which they can bear, in order to not develop a hatred of themselves and others, and to avoid the suicide fostering nihilism preached by the poisoned philosophers such as Friedrich Nietzsche, whose axioms were off, and so then, his conclusions. A case of building one’s house on sand instead of bedrock.

I see in your title that you are truth seeker. I know that if that is true, and you are indeed seeking truth, and you keep your mind and heart open to truth, no matter where it leads, that you will be lead eventually to Christ, because Christ IS the truth. The people who have discovered this are not simpletons. They are people who are unafraid of the truth, and therefore, have been set free by it’s discovery. They have not lost anything. They have gained a whole eternity of wonder and joy. They haven’t given up any freedom by not wishing to murder, and commit suicide, and poison their bodies, and remain chaste. They have discovered the real freedom of being allowed to do what one should, instead of what one supposedly wants. And the real kicker is, that once this happens, then good, it turns out IS what they want. It is truly their goal and ambition. To make themselves a beautiful painting to God. One that makes sense and stays within it’s frame, rather than being pointless splashes of paint meaninglessly splashed at random on the the wall.

Blessings,

Steven

 

[kch86]

His son (R.J. Stove), by the way, wised up to the utter irrationality of atheism and became a Roman Catholic some time later, a story he recounts here.

Thanks for sharing that link. It certainly made good reading.

Wherever two atheists have a dispute and in their arguments, one concedes defeat and admits his error, he comes closer to the truth. And should he with such humility continue to search for goodness and truth, I’ve come to believe that what he will eventually find is Goodness and Truth Himself, or at the very worst, he will come very close.

And of those who come close, many will, despite the deficiencies and contradictions in their minds, come to see that virtue as an end in itself leads to happiness in this life and strive to live accordingly, even though they may not yet know their Creator or of the happiness in the next life. And so, back to the original question, I do not think that a fear of hell is strictly necessary as a precondition to motivate one to do good.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

It was either, faith in God, a mental institution, or suicide. I chose to have faith.

 

[edwest2]

Let’s all be honest with ourselves. Would you really go to church every Sunday, go to confession, not commit adultery, etc. If there were no heaven or hell? No reward or punishment?

Keep everything about Catholicism the same just take out heaven and hell. Even though you know God exists and he has laid down rules for mankind to follow, would you really follow them? We have to admit that religious people, their main motivation is to enter heaven, but most importantly, to avoid hell. I’m not saying its bad that thats how religious people are. I’m just saying that one should recognize that deep down its all about self interest. If God tells me to not drink alcohol, he only tells me not to do it, he doesnt mention any punishments that will occur if i do drink. Would i really abstain from alcohol?We only do things that benefir us. Even if it is helping poor children. We either do it because of religious purposes or because it makes us feel good. If thats how God created us that so be it. But doesnt it sound a little disturbing that thats how we are.

The Church’s mission is to preach the Gospel to all nations. Jesus Christ was true man and true God. He made us. He told us what is good and what is bad. It is the truth.

Peace,
Ed

 

[0thetrooth0]

You guys are right, my apoligies. The question i posed has been sufficiently answered to my satisfaction. It is indeed better to walk on the path of love than to walk on the path of fear. I had a misconception that most religious people were mainly motivated by a fear of hell.

 

[kmaaj]

Love and worship of God is the reason for mass. Love of fellow man is the natural outcome of a faithful prayer discipline and communion with the Holy Spirit. When this happens, a healthy and reverent fear of God comes into our very being. Fear of hell is rendered irrelevant.

 

[netineti]

Let’s all be honest with ourselves. Would you really go to church every Sunday, go to confession, not commit adultery, etc. If there were no heaven or hell? No reward or punishment?

This seems to be a very narrow way of understanding “reward” or “punishment.” It also implies that the actual consequence of an act is delayed until your arrive at your post mortem state. many of the folks I know are atheists, as offensive as that might be to some. But guess what? They are functionally more moral in their actions than many of my “religious” friends. Why? because they understand that there is a law of reciprocity which we consider as Catholics to be the reason behind the Great Commandments. So we can say that they are more streamlined in their morality than many religious folks are, because life is more simple in terms of ethical decisions. "Would I want someone to do this to me? Yes? No? Done. Thereby all the commandments are fulfilled.

If you wish to argue about sacraments and grace, fine. But again, while there might be a wonderful interior merit to those who partake in those in sincerity, again, I see my atheist friends leading a greatly contemplative life. They are, without ascribing it to an individual, in awe of the Universe and all of Nature. Insofar as they are honest, sincere, and thorough in their understanding, I can have no quarrel with their ways.

 

[0thetrooth0]

This seems to be a very narrow way of understanding “reward” or “punishment.” It also implies that the actual consequence of an act is delayed until your arrive at your post mortem state. many of the folks I know are atheists, as offensive as that might be to some. But guess what? They are functionally more moral in their actions than many of my “religious” friends. Why? because they understand that there is a law of reciprocity which we consider as Catholics to be the reason behind the Great Commandments. So we can say that they are more streamlined in their morality than many religious folks are, because life is more simple in terms of ethical decisions. "Would I want someone to do this to me? Yes? No? Done. Thereby all the commandments are fulfilled.

If you wish to argue about sacraments and grace, fine. But again, while there might be a wonderful interior merit to those who partake in those in sincerity, again, I see my atheist friends leading a greatly contemplative life. They are, without ascribing it to an individual, in awe of the Universe and all of Nature. Insofar as they are honest, sincere, and thorough in their understanding, I can have no quarrel with their ways.

Do you try to convert them to your faith?

Isn’t a bad idea to have atheist friends as they might lead you away from your faith?