"One Issue Voter"

[pnewton]

The already born are important too.

Yes they are. And if we have a candidate that is pro-murder (that is, direct killing of the innocent) of adults and children already born, it should bear the same weight as abortion.

 

[Rence]

Looked to me like he was pretty specific. And the teachings on this are pretty specific Can you tell us what proportionate reasons would’ve allowed a Catholic to vote for Obama.? And if you can can you show is for any single member of the magestrium supported this view?

To me, it did not look specific. Sorry. No where did it say, “you can’t vote this way” or “you have to vote that way”.

Proportionate reasons allowing a Catholic to vote for Obama depends on the voter and what is important to them.

I’m sure every Catholic is not going to ask the Magesterium for whom they should vote. I know I don’t.

 

[Christopher68]

To me, it did not look specific. Sorry. No where did it say, “you can’t vote this way” or “you have to vote that way”.

Proportionate reasons allowing a Catholic to vote for Obama depends on the voter and what is important to them.

I’m sure every Catholic is not going to ask the Magesterium for whom they should vote. I know I don’t.

Priests step over the line when they suggest specific candidates to vote for. When our local pastor sends broadcast e-mails to all parishioners on political topics, I always send a reply with my suggestions as well.

 

[Spirithound]

But can a Catholic support Obama and say,“I despise his stance on Abortion, but I feel as though he is the best candidate”? I have no idea, I’m just curious.

By the way, I am a very, very conservative guy. I did NOT support Obama. I have many friends, some good Catholics, who did.

You would have to believe that his opponent(s) were equally or more pro-abortion.

Proportionate reasons allowing a Catholic to vote for Obama depends on the voter and what is important to them.

No, they don’t. Abortion is a NON-NEGOTIABLE item.

 

[Rence]

Abortion is a NON-NEGOTIABLE item.

Of course abortion is a serious issue, but no where does it say that all the other items on the list are not to be considered after abortion has been considered. The statement from the Bishops gave a list of issues important to consider in that article, and it didn’t by any means stop with abortion. The Bishops want us to look at all of the issues and vote accordingly.

For example, if the only pro-life candidate is promising to wage war on N. Korea during his/her term, I certainly would vote to make sure he/she didn’t win the election. For example, If the only pro-life candidate is promising to outlaw firearms, I’d certainly vote to make sure he didn’t win that election. For example, if the only pro-life candidate is promising to double the taxes on farms, I’d most certainly make sure I vote against him/her. Just because the there is a “pro-life” candidate doesn’t mean that candidate is going to save the world. In fact, he might make it much worse. Vote the way your conscience dictates, and so will I.

 

[estesbob]

Of course abortion is a serious issue, but no where does it say that all the other items on the list are not to be considered after abortion has been considered. The statement from the Bishops gave a list of issues important to consider in that article, and it didn’t by any means stop with abortion. The Bishops want us to look at all of the issues and vote accordingly.

For example, if the only pro-life candidate is promising to wage war on N. Korea during his/her term, I certainly would vote to make sure he/she didn’t win the election. For example, If the only pro-life candidate is promising to outlaw firearms, I’d certainly vote to make sure he didn’t win that election. For example, if the only pro-life candidate is promising to double the taxes on farms, I’d most certainly make sure I vote against him/her. Just because the there is a “pro-life” candidate doesn’t mean that candidate is going to save the world. In fact, he might make it much worse. Vote the way your conscience dictates, and so will I.

Yes abortion is a serious issue 50 miollion dead children and counting. It is so serious that no issues with combination of issues can overcome a candidate support of unrestricted taxpayer- unfortunately we still to see Catholics coming up with ridiculous scenarios, as you have done above, as to why it’s okay to support a person that promotes such abject evil .

Let me repeat again- not one single member of the magisterium said they were proportionate reasons that would allow a Catholic to vote for Barack Obama. 62 United States bishops said they were not. If your conscience told you that it was okay to gvote for Obama you need to go talk to your priest, beg God for forgiveness, and find out how your conscience got so contrary to the teachings of the church

 

[Spirithound]

Of course abortion is a serious issue, but no where does it say that all the other items on the list are not to be considered after abortion has been considered. The statement from the Bishops gave a list of issues important to consider in that article, and it didn’t by any means stop with abortion. The Bishops want us to look at all of the issues and vote accordingly.

For example, if the only pro-life candidate is promising to wage war on N. Korea during his/her term, I certainly would vote to make sure he/she didn’t win the election. For example, If the only pro-life candidate is promising to outlaw firearms, I’d certainly vote to make sure he didn’t win that election. For example, if the only pro-life candidate is promising to double the taxes on farms, I’d most certainly make sure I vote against him/her. Just because the there is a “pro-life” candidate doesn’t mean that candidate is going to save the world. In fact, he might make it much worse. Vote the way your conscience dictates, and so will I.

ewtn.com/vote/brief_catechism.htm

Start at #3.

 

[Rence]

Yes abortion is a serious issue 50 miollion dead children and counting. It is so serious that no issues with combination of issues can overcome a candidate support of unrestricted taxpayer- unfortunately we still to see Catholics coming up with ridiculous scenarios, as you have done above, as to why it’s okay to support a person that promotes such abject evil .

Let me repeat again- not one single member of the magisterium said they were proportionate reasons that would allow a Catholic to vote for Barack Obama. 62 United States bishops said they were not. If your conscience told you that it was okay to gvote for Obama you need to go talk to your priest, beg God for forgiveness, and find out how your conscience got so contrary to the teachings of the church

Can you please provide an official Vatican document that says that Catholics are required to vote based on abortion as the sole important reason to vote for a candidate? Or from the Bishops?

Who of the magisterium said there were no proportionate reasons that would allow a Catholic to vote for any candidate (not just BO) that is pro-choice? Is there a Chuch document from the Vatican or from our Bishops saying that Catholics were not allowed to vote for (ie BO) a specific candidate who was or is pro-choice?

So far, the documents you have provided have done no such thing. Though they do specifically say that the Church does not tell voters for whom to vote, or for whom not to vote. They also listed a number of issues to consider when voting.

 

[Rence]

ewtn.com/vote/brief_catechism.htm

Start at #3.

Thanks for the link Spirithound, but that’s a priest’s opinion.

Can you please provide an official Vatican document that says that Catholics are required to vote based on abortion as the sole important reason to vote for a candidate? Or from the Bishops?

So far, the documents provided specifically say that the Church does not tell voters for whom to vote, or for whom not to vote. They also listed a number of issues to consider when voting. They did not indicate abortion was the sole and most important factor that negated all others.

 

[estesbob]

Can you please provide an official Vatican document that says that Catholics are required to vote based on abortion as the sole important reason to vote for a candidate? Or from the Bishops?

Who of the magisterium said there were no proportionate reasons that would allow a Catholic to vote for any candidate (not just BO) that is pro-choice? Is there a Chuch document from the Vatican or from our Bishops saying that Catholics were not allowed to vote for (ie BO) a specific candidate who was or is pro-choice?

So far, the documents you have provided have done no such thing. Though they do specifically say that the Church does not tell voters for whom to vote, or for whom not to vote. They also listed a number of issues to consider when voting.

We have provided you with documents and ad nauseum When the documents contradict your political views you tell us they are not binding as they are just somebody’s “opinion.” And what you offer buttress your position-your conscience!

There is no way a Catholic and research this issue and not know you cannot vote for a candidate who supports unrestricted taxpayer abortion on demand. We have way too many Catholics who think a properly formed conscience comes from reading the Democratic Party platform rather than the Catechism.

 

[estesbob]

Thanks for the link Spirithound, but that’s a priest’s opinion.

Can you please provide an official Vatican document that says that Catholics are required to vote based on abortion as the sole important reason to vote for a candidate? Or from the Bishops?

So far, the documents provided specifically say that the Church does not tell voters for whom to vote, or for whom not to vote. They also listed a number of issues to consider when voting. They did not indicate abortion was the sole and most important factor that negated all others.

Once again you make our point. When you are provided with documents you tell us they are not official or just someone’s opinion I am sure if we produced a document from the Pope stateing a Catholic cannot vote for Obama you would tell us either that was just his opinion or he was not referring to the Obama who ran for president

This is nothing new

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.”

 

[Rence]

Once again you make our point. When you are provided with documents you tell us they are not official or just someone’s opinion I am sure if we produced a document from the Pope stateing a Catholic cannot vote for Obama you would tell us either that was just his opinion or he was not referring to the Obama who ran for president

This is nothing new

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.”

Once again, you make my point. You cannot come up with a document from the Pope (or the Vatican or the Bishops) that directs Catholics to vote for someone, or not vote for someone. The article you provided earlier in this thread from the Bishops DOESN’T have those restrictions. The article you provided specifically said that the Church doesn’t direct voters to vote for or against a particular party or individual.

I understand that you feel strongly about this issue. You’re a GREAT advocate for trying to get pro-life legislators in office and I respect that. Unfortunately, the pro-life ones are not strong candidates (i.e. Palin). Maybe instead of the angle you are taking in your dedication, you may lobby for a great pro-life candidate? Maybe instead of trying to get people to not vote for someone you don’t want in office, maybe you should consider concentrating on who would be good in office and talk about that instead. There are things about all candidates that people like and don’t like. They take the good and the bad and weight them together. I understand that you think abortion is the single most important and only deciding factor, but the truth of it is, it is NOT the single most important and only deciding factor. The whole picture has to be taken into account.

I can tell you that no one on this forum is going to sway me to vote for a particular party on the grounds that I am “not allowed by the Church” to vote for the other candidate, especially when I know that is false.

 

[Spirithound]

usccb.org/bishops/FCBullInsert.pdf

Page 4, first 2 paragraphs.

 

[Rence]

usccb.org/bishops/FCBullInsert.pdf

Page 4, first 2 paragraphs.

Ok, from your article:

There are some things we must never do, as individuals or as a society, because they are
always incompatible with love of God and neighbor. These intrinsically evil acts must always be
rejected and never supported. A preeminent example is the intentional taking of human life
through abortion. It is always morally wrong to destroy innocent human beings. A legal system
that allows the right to life to be violated on the grounds of choice is fundamentally flawed.
Similarly, direct threats to the dignity of human life such as euthanasia, human cloning,
and destructive research on human embryos are also intrinsically evil and must be opposed.
Other assaults on human life and dignity, such as genocide, torture, racism, and the targeting of
noncombatants in acts of terror or war, can never be justified. Disrespect for any human life
diminishes respect for all human life.

As Catholics we are not single-issue votersA candidate’s position on a single issue is not
sufficient to guarantee a voter’s support. Yet a candidate’s position on a single issue that
involves an intrinsic evil, such as support for legal abortion or the promotion of racism, may
legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support.1.

The above does NOT mean we are forbidden to vote for a pro-choice candidate. There is no “forbiddence” in this statement. “may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support” is not a command not to vote for someone. The Church is NOT shy about forbidden an activity or requiring another. If we were forbidden, we’d be told we were foribidden.

Also, from page 5:

Prudential judgment is also needed to determine the best way to promote the common
good in areas such as housing, health care, and immigration. When Church leaders make
judgments about how to apply Catholic teaching to specific policies, this may not carry the same
binding authority as universal moral principles but cannot be dismissed as one political opinion
among others. These moral applications should inform the consciences and guide the actions of
Catholics.

This does not indicate that abortion is the single most important and only factor to consider.

Important, yes, absolutely. But not the single most important and only factor to consider.

 

[Ignatias20]

This is my very first post in this Forum. May the Holy Spirit put words in my mouth/brain.

Abortion is muder of a helpless human. It requires participants to make the decision to
kill a living human being and then to act on that decision. Some say that there must also be the ignorance that abortion is a sin - that is for an apologist to answer, not me.

Back about 50 years ago I knew abortion was a sin. The Catholic Catachism agrees with me. Therefore the support of an individual who allows or promotes abortion is absolutely wrong!

 

[estesbob]

Ok, from your article:

The above does NOT mean we are forbidden to vote for a pro-choice candidate. There is no “forbiddence” in this statement. “may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support” is not a command not to vote for someone. The Church is NOT shy about forbidden an activity or requiring another. If we were forbidden, we’d be told we were foribidden.

Also, from page 5:

This does not indicate that abortion is the single most important and only factor to consider.

Important, yes, absolutely. But not the single most important and only factor to consider.

They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear,

Ez 12:2

 

[Newbie2]

This is my very first post in this Forum. May the Holy Spirit put words in my mouth/brain.

Abortion is muder of a helpless human. It requires participants to make the decision to
kill a living human being and then to act on that decision. Some say that there must also be the ignorance that abortion is a sin - that is for an apologist to answer, not me.

Back about 50 years ago I knew abortion was a sin. The Catholic Catachism agrees with me. Therefore the support of an individual who allows or promotes abortion is absolutely wrong!

OK, say you’ve got two pro-choice candidates to choose from. What then?

 

[Newbie2]

Can you please provide an official Vatican document that says that Catholics are required to vote based on abortion as the sole important reason to vote for a candidate? Or from the Bishops?

So far, the documents you have provided have done no such thing. Though they do specifically say that the Church does not tell voters for whom to vote, or for whom not to vote. They also listed a number of issues to consider when voting.

We have provided you with documents and ad nauseum When the documents contradict your political views you tell us they are not binding as they are just somebody’s “opinion.” And what you offer buttress your position-your conscience!

There is no way a Catholic and research this issue and not know you cannot vote for a candidate who supports unrestricted taxpayer abortion on demand. We have way too many Catholics who think a properly formed conscience comes from reading the Democratic Party platform rather than the Catechism.

So in the hypothetical if we had a pro-choice Republican and a pro-choice Democrat running for President (and all the other third party candidates were pro-choice), we would be forbidden to vote for President?

That’s what you’re saying, isn’t it?

Once again you make our point. When you are provided with documents you tell us they are not official or just someone’s opinion

No, not one single document you’ve quoted says Abortion is the sole #1 issue that American voters are bound to use in deciding to vote.

Once again, you make my point. You cannot come up with a document from the Pope (or the Vatican or the Bishops) that directs Catholics to vote for someone, or not vote for someone. The article you provided earlier in this thread from the Bishops DOESN’T have those restrictions. The article you provided specifically said that the Church doesn’t direct voters to vote for or against a particular party or individual.

I understand that you feel strongly about this issue. You’re a GREAT advocate for trying to get pro-life legislators in office and I respect that. Unfortunately, the pro-life ones are not strong candidates (i.e. Palin). Maybe instead of the angle you are taking in your dedication, you may lobby for a great pro-life candidate? Maybe instead of trying to get people to not vote for someone you don’t want in office, maybe you should consider concentrating on who would be good in office and talk about that instead. There are things about all candidates that people like and don’t like. They take the good and the bad and weight them together. I understand that you think abortion is the single most important and only deciding factor, but the truth of it is, it is NOT the single most important and only deciding factor. The whole picture has to be taken into account.

I can tell you that no one on this forum is going to sway me to vote for a particular party on the grounds that I am “not allowed by the Church” to vote for the other candidate, especially when I know that is false.

Ok, from your article:

The above does NOT mean we are forbidden to vote for a pro-choice candidate. There is no “forbiddence” in this statement. “may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support” is not a command not to vote for someone. The Church is NOT shy about forbidden an activity or requiring another. If we were forbidden, we’d be told we were foribidden.

Also, from page 5:

This does not indicate that abortion is the single most important and only factor to consider.

Important, yes, absolutely. But not the single most important and only factor to consider.

Exactly.

I would not have voted for Obama in a million years, but facts are facts. The Church gives us guidelines, but no mandates that abortion be the overriding factor in choosing a candidate.

Methinks there is some difficulty in understanding the distinction between “most important” issue and “overriding issue”.

 

[estesbob]

OK, say you’ve got two pro-choice candidates to choose from. What then?

The Church says you would go with the one who was less pro-abortion than the other. For instance Canidate A supports unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand. Canidate B supports 1st Trimester abortions only -a Catholic could not vote for Canidate A but could vote for Canidate B

 

[estesbob]

So in the hypothetical if we had a pro-choice Republican and a pro-choice Democrat running for President (and all the other third party candidates were pro-choice), we would be forbidden to vote for President?

That’s what you’re saying, isn’t it?

No-you could vote for the one who was less pro-abortion than the other. If they re equally pro-abortion you are free to look at other issues.

No, not one single document you’ve quoted says Abortion is the sole #1 issue that American voters are bound to use in deciding to vote.

We quoted Pope Benidcit hmslef stateing that not a moral issues are equal a none as important as abortion and Euthanasia

Can you quote a single document that said there would be proportionate reasons for Catholic to vote for a candidate who supported unrestricted taxpayer fuded abortions on demand if their opponent was pro-life , or more pro-life than they were?

Exactly.

I would not have voted for Obama in a million years, but facts are facts. The Church gives us guidelines, but no mandates that abortion be the overriding factor in choosing a candidate.

Methinks there is some difficulty in understanding the distinction between “most important” issue and “overriding issue”.

And the facts are their were no proportionate reasons that would’ve allowed for Catholic to vote for Barack Obama.