"One Issue Voter"

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So in the hypothetical if we had a pro-choice Republican and a pro-choice Democrat running for President (and all the other third party candidates were pro-choice), we would be forbidden to vote for President?

That’s what you’re saying, isn’t it?

No, not one single document you’ve quoted says Abortion is the sole #1 issue that American voters are bound to use in deciding to vote.

I would not have voted for Obama in a million years, but facts are facts. The Church gives us guidelines, but no mandates that abortion be the overriding factor in choosing a candidate.

Methinks there is some difficulty in understanding the distinction between “most important” issue and “overriding issue”.
But the more articles that are pointed out to me, the more I am comfortable with my voting preferences, that’s for sure.

That last article from the USCCB usccb.org/bishops/FCBullInsert.pdf was a great article. Like the last article earlier in the thread, it gives a LIST of important issues to consider. They’re very important, some more than others, but none are the single most important and definitive factor when voting. The Church does NOT tell us for whom to vote and for whom not to vote. They give us guidelines to consider when voting. There is a difference.
 
But the more articles that are pointed out to me, the more I am comfortable with my voting preferences, that’s for sure.

That last article from the USCCB usccb.org/bishops/FCBullInsert.pdf was a great article. Like the last article earlier in the thread, it gives a LIST of important issues to consider. They’re very important, some more than others, but none are the single most important and definitive factor when voting. The Church does NOT tell us for whom to vote and for whom not to vote. They give us guidelines to consider when voting. There is a difference.
Throughout history people have always found a way to rationalize supportng evil. These debates are like debating with someone who insists on sola scriptura-you require us to ignore what the Church clearly says and accept your personal interpetation -which , surprise, surprise just happens to support your politcal views.
 
Throughout history people have always found a way to rationalize supportng evil. These debates are like debating with someone who insists on sola scriptura-you require us to ignore what the Church clearly says and accept your personal interpetation -which , surprise, surprise just happens to support your politcal views.
I’m sorry you’re upset about this estesbob, but the documents provided are pretty easy to read and basically all say the same thing. If we were forbidden to vote for a pro-choice candidate that we felt is the best candidate for the job, the Vatican, who is not timid about saying “no”, would say so with no uncertain terms. It has not been shy about doing so about other issues, and it wouldn’t be shy for this issue. The fact is, we are not forbidden to vote for our pick, despite the fact that he/she may be pro-choice.
 
Throughout history people have always found a way to rationalize supportng evil. These debates are like debating with someone who insists on sola scriptura-you require us to ignore what the Church clearly says and accept your personal interpetation -which , surprise, surprise just happens to support your politcal views.
I agree in principle with Rence, but apparently have the opposite political POV. 🤷 There goes the political view theory.

Sorry, EB, but the Church simply does not say that Abortion is the sole **overriding **issue on which we should vote.

I agree with you, though, I have a very difficult time seeing how one could have voted for Obama and stay in line with Church guidelines. But there are not mandates to exclude a pro-abortion candidate solely on that one criterion.
 
I’m sorry you’re upset about this estesbob, but the documents provided are pretty easy to read and basically all say the same thing. If we were forbidden to vote for a pro-choice candidate that we felt is the best candidate for the job, the Vatican, who is not timid about saying “no”, would say so with no uncertain terms. It has not been shy about doing so about other issues, and it wouldn’t be shy for this issue. The fact is, we are not forbidden to vote for our pick, despite the fact that he/she may be pro-choice.
You are free to ignore the Church and vote for anyone you want-at your own risk of course.
 
Can you please provide an official Vatican document that says that Catholics are required to vote based on abortion as the sole important reason to vote for a candidate? Or from the Bishops? This is the point at which a well formed conscience comes into play. Abortion was the most serious and Intrinsic evil, along with euthanasia, cloning, homosexual marriage, embryonic stem cell research issue that were included in the Dem. platform in the last POTUS election. Discard the hyperbole and wake up to the fact that although the Magisterium could not directly identify candidates who should or should not be voted for, at least one third of those Bishops with backbone stated directly that the above issues were the most disasterous.
Who of the magisterium said there were no proportionate reasons that would allow a Catholic to vote for any candidate (not just BO) that is pro-choice?

We were to use a Catholic consience, not one bound by relativism and secularism. Is there a Chuch document from the Vatican or from our Bishops saying that Catholics were not allowed to vote for (ie BO) a specific candidate who was or is pro-choice?

So far, the documents you have provided have done no such thing. Though they do specifically say that the Church does not tell voters for whom to vote, or for whom not to vote. They also listed a number of issues to consider when voting.
They listed the evils in degrees or evil and urgency. Which did they mention first? Was it not to give dignity and protection to the unborn still in the womb?
 
They listed the evils in degrees or evil and urgency. Which did they mention first? Was it not to give dignity and protection to the unborn still in the womb?
The list is to be considered together, and then the voter has to decide which way to vote. Mentioning an issue first does not indicate it is the most important and a deal breaker.

That last article from the USCCB usccb.org/bishops/FCBullInsert.pdf was a great article, and I’m glad it was referenced and linked here. Like the last article earlier in the thread, it gives a LIST of important issues to consider. They’re very important, some more than others, but none are the single most important and definitive factor when voting. The Church does NOT tell us for whom to vote and for whom not to vote. They give us guidelines to consider when voting. There is a difference. They did not list issues in order of importance, and even if they did, it still does not indicate that abortion is the single most important and definitive factor when voting.
 
Can you please provide an official Vatican document that says that Catholics are required to vote based on abortion as the sole important reason to vote for a candidate? Or from the Bishops?

Who of the magisterium said there were no proportionate reasons that would allow a Catholic to vote for any candidate (not just BO) that is pro-choice? Is there a Chuch document from the Vatican or from our Bishops saying that Catholics were not allowed to vote for (ie BO) a specific candidate who was or is pro-choice?

So far, the documents you have provided have done no such thing. Though they do specifically say that the Church does not tell voters for whom to vote, or for whom not to vote. They also listed a number of issues to consider when voting.
Rence perhaps the following will give you something mull over.Bishop is a member of the Magisterium? Partial doc. for the full statement go to:

zenit.org/article-19058?l=english

ZE07030301 - 2007-03-03
Bishop Fisher on Conscience and Authority
“Struggling to Recover a Catholic Sense”
VATICAN CITY, MARCH 3, 2007 (Zenit.org).- Here is the text Auxiliary Bishop Anthony Fisher of Sydney, Australia, delivered at the conference sponsored by the Pontifical Academy for Life and held in the Vatican last Friday and Saturday. The theme of the conference was “The Christian Conscience in Support of the Right to Life.”* * *

Conscience is only right conscience when it accurately mediates and applies that natural law which participates in the divine law; it is erroneous when it does not. Thus, as I suggested earlier, it may be more helpful to think of conscience as a verb (a doing word), describing the human mind thinking practically towards good or godly choices, rather than reifying it as a noun, a faculty or voice with divine qualities

Such reverence for persons and their consciences is perfectly consistent with denying that conscience is infallible or has “primacy” over truth or faith or the teachings of Christ and his Church. As we will see, the magisterium seeks to enable conscience to achieve a more reliable mediation and application of moral truth: It is always objective moral truth that has primacy and only this which can be infallibly true.

, it might suffice to recall the three moral “dogmas” to be found in John Paul II’s encyclical on bioethics, “Evangelium vitæ.” Here he was careful to cite the texts from Vatican II regarding the papal and episcopal magisterium in moral matters, and to use the language of Petrine authority. The clearest exercise of the highest level of papal magisterium was with respect to direct killing of the innocent. John Paul then applied this teaching to abortion and euthanasia, both of which he confirmed were grave moral disorders. Though there are some differences, in each case he claimed the authority of the natural law, the Scriptures and the Tradition, the ordinary and universal magisterium, the disciplinary tradition of the Church, the unanimous agreement of the bishops – and, now, “the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his successors”./COLOR]Around the time of Vatican II, Karl Rahner wrote that conscience is the proximate source of moral obligation, and so must be followed even if mistaken; COLOR=“red”]but that we must form our conscience rightly and avoid confusing it with subjective inclination or personal preference. A Catholic must be prepared to accept moral instruction from the Church and never appeal to conscience to make an exception for himself If we realized that we may very well have to sacrifice everything or lose our soul, then we would not look for exceptions to be made for us from God’s law and our confessors would not use evasions like “follow your conscience” when some hard if sensitive teaching were needed. If in our sinful world God’s law seems unrealistic, the trouble is not with God’s law but with the world!The “crisis of '68” was a crisis at least in part over the meaning of conscience, its implications for decision-making and its relationship to the magisterium. In the 1970s a number of theologians proceeded to deny that the Scriptures, the Tradition and the hierarchy have any “strong” magisterium in moral matters. The “situationists” echoed the contemporary exaltation of human freedom and rejection of appeals to nature, reason, authority or any static, universal or objectivist standards; what mattered, in the end, was whether the person’s “heart was in the right place.” The “proportionalists” asserted that the role of conscience was to identify and balance upsides and downsides of options and that the Church could propose some “rules of thumb” for this balancing act, but no moral absolutes. Some argued that it was impossible for the Church to teach infallibly in morals; others said that while it could in principle, it never had done so; and both agreed that the ordinary teaching of the Church is “susceptible to error and therefore fallible.”

We are all well aware of how thoroughly the 1970s-'80s style of moral thinking filtered down through many of our societies, even if it was rarely dressed up in the highfalutin language of “ontic evils” and “authenticity.” In a slightly more sophisticated form it was taught to a generation of priests and lay theology students. It will take some time to recover a more Catholic sense of the role and content of conscience and the magisterium.
 
I can only follow my conscience. The way I vote is to consider each candidate and the what those candidates promise to bring to their term. If I believe a candidate is bad for the country, or even for my way of life, I can’t vote for that candidate. My conscience won’t let me. And the Church asks us to take into consideration their list of issues when examining each candidate, as clearly directed in the Bishops’ article, in which they say,
As Catholics we are not single-issue voters. A candidate’s position on a single issue is not
sufficient to guarantee a voter’s support. Yet a candidate’s position on a single issue that
involves an intrinsic evil, such as support for legal abortion or the promotion of racism, may
legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support
The basic right to life implies and is linked to other
human rights to the goods that every person needs to live and thrive—including food, shelter, health care, education, and meaningful work. The use of the death penalty, hunger, lack of health
care or housing, human trafficking, the human and moral costs of war, and unjust immigration
policies are some of the serious moral issues that challenge our consciences and require us to act.
and
“Prudential judgment is also needed to determine the best way to promote the common good in areas such as housing, health care, and immigration”
Sorry, but the Bishops specifically say that Catholics are not single issue voters, and that one issue is not a guarantee of a vote, and that one issue may disqualify a vote. The Bishops call on Catholics to look at all the issues, all important, some more than others – but still all issues are important — when casting a vote.
 
Rence perhaps the following will give you something mull over.Bishop is a member of the Magisterium? Partial doc. for the full statement go to:

zenit.org/article-19058?l=english

A Catholic must be prepared to accept moral instruction from the Church and never appeal to conscience to make an exception for himself If we realized that we may very well have to sacrifice everything or lose our soul, then we would not look for exceptions to be made for us from God’s law and our confessors would not use evasions like “follow your conscience” when some hard if sensitive teaching were needed. If in our sinful world God’s law seems unrealistic, the trouble is not with God’s law but with the world!
See, the thing is…the Bishops did not tell us what to do other than to weigh all the issues and vote accordingly. If there was a “one issue” they would not have specified that Catholics are not one issue voters. If there was a “one issue” they would have specified instead that there is a “one issue”. If there was a “most important” they would have said that. If we were only allowed to vote a certain way, they would specify it like they do everything else that is either fobidden or required.

Look through the catechism, the canon documents: see how many “forbidden” and “required” there are. See how many times we’re told we can do this, and can’t do that. Surely, if we could only vote with abortion as the sole most important factor, they would say that. But they haven’t. Instead, they list issues, tell us to consider all of them carefully and vote with our conscience. That does NOT mean that abortion is the deal breaker. It just means it’s a very important issue among many.
 
See, the thing is…the Bishops did not tell us what to do other than to weigh all the issues and vote accordingly. If there was a “one issue” they would not have specified that Catholics are not one issue voters. If there was a “one issue” they would have specified instead that there is a “one issue”. If there was a “most important” they would have said that. If we were only allowed to vote a certain way, they would specify it like they do everything else that is either fobidden or required.

Look through the catechism, the canon documents: see how many “forbidden” and “required” there are. See how many times we’re told we can do this, and can’t do that. Surely, if we could only vote with abortion as the sole most important factor, they would say that. But they haven’t. Instead, they list issues, tell us to consider all of them carefully and vote with our conscience. That does NOT mean that abortion is the deal breaker. It just means it’s a very important issue among many.
Excuse me.but did you read the above, what the Bishops AND the Pope agreed to? Do you need someone standing directly behind you telling you to keep your hand out of the cookie jar in order for you to know what TRUTH is? I had assumed you are more mature than that?
 
see, the thing is…the bishops did not tell us what to do other than to weigh all the issues and vote accordingly. If there was a “one issue” they would not have specified that catholics are not one issue voters. If there was a “one issue” they would have specified instead that there is a “one issue”. If there was a “most important” they would have said that. If we were only allowed to vote a certain way, they would specify it like they do everything else that is either fobidden or required.

Look through the catechism, the canon documents: See how many “forbidden” and “required” there are. See how many times we’re told we can do this, and can’t do that. Surely, if we could only vote with abortion as the sole most important factor, they would say that. But they haven’t. Instead, they list issues, tell us to consider all of them carefully and vote with our conscience. They list issues according to evil and urgency, i said that before, apparently you don’t read my posts. that does not mean that abortion is the deal breaker. It just means it’s a very important issue among many.WRONG SO VERY WRONG
 
Excuse me.but did you read the above, what the Bishops AND the Pope agreed to? Do you need someone standing directly behind you telling you to keep your hand out of the cookie jar in order for you to know what TRUTH is? I had assumed you are more mature than that?
Yes I read it. I am mature enough to know that all things together are important, not just abortion. And that no where are we forbidden from voting for a pro-choice candidate. Not even in the bit you quoted.

Again, if it was forbidden, like so many other things that are forbidden, they would say it.
 
They list issues according to evil and urgency, i said that before, apparently you don’t read my posts.
I did read your post. I’m sorry to say that I don’t agree with you. And I said, even if it was listed in order, it still didn’t imply or command that it was ‘the determining factor’, ‘the deciding factor’, or ‘the one issue’.
 
See, the thing is…the Bishops did not tell us what to do other than to weigh all the issues and vote accordingly. If there was a “one issue” they would not have specified that Catholics are not one issue voters. If there was a “one issue” they would have specified instead that there is a “one issue”. If there was a “most important” they would have said that. If we were only allowed to vote a certain way, they would specify it like they do everything else that is either fobidden or required.

Look through the catechism, the canon documents: see how many “forbidden” and “required” there are. See how many times we’re told we can do this, and can’t do that. Surely, if we could only vote with abortion as the sole most important factor, they would say that. But they haven’t. Instead, they list issues, tell us to consider all of them carefully and vote with our conscience. That does NOT mean that abortion is the deal breaker. It just means it’s a very important issue among many.
Yes I read it. I am mature enough to know that all things together are important, not just abortion. And that no where are we forbidden from voting for a pro-choice candidate. Not even in the bit you quoted.

Again, if it was forbidden, like so many other things that are forbidden, they would say it.
LET THOSE WHO HAVE EYES TO READ AND UNDERSTAND, LET THEM READ:banghead: Still need someone to tell you to take that hand out of the cookie jar. Sad. BYE.🙂 Just shaking my sandals.🤷
 
Yes I read it. I am mature enough to know that all things together are important, not just abortion. And that no where are we forbidden from voting for a pro-choice candidate. Not even in the bit you quoted.

Again, if it was forbidden, like so many other things that are forbidden, they would say it.
I’d have to agree.

And once again, nobody’s answered the question, if we had to choose between two pro-choice candidates, are we then forbidden to vote for President? That would seem to be the case, no?
 
I’d have to agree.

And once again, nobody’s answered the question, if we had to choose between two pro-choice candidates, are we then forbidden to vote for President? That would seem to be the case, no?
It is has been answered many times-most recently in post number 59
 
The only reason I can see the Catholic could rationalize voting for pro-abortion candidate is that they deny the full humanity of the unborn. If, for instance, candidate called for the killing of 1.2 million 7-year-olds a year, the majority of whom were women and minorities ,they would shake their heads in disgust and would not even consider voting for them. However they appear to have no problem with candidates who support the above with the unborn.
 
No, the question has been deflected.

Suppose they’re ***equally ***pro-life, as far as one can tell. What then?
Then abortion is not an issue and you can vote for either. And I ffail to see how the question is not answered in post 59. I suspect the truth is you just don’t like the answer
 
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