One Man Changed History...What If He Hadn't?

[1stChristian]

Hello,

Martin Luther obviously changed the course of history, even though he was a Catholic monk because all that existed before him were Catholic Christians. My question being, if he had not changed history, wouldn’t all of you Protestants still be Catholics? I mean, because he came in and decided which bibles were to be taken out of the Protestant bible, and inserted his own words (which Jesus said to do this would be a sin), these religions are obviously man-made. The Catholic religion is not man-made unless you call Jesus the man.
If you know this about Luther, why don’t you Protestants remain how Jesus wanted it? In his Catholic church right from the beginning…is your church “easier” to join? “Easier” to understand? Many people can’t or won’t be Catholic because they feel it is to hard…even though Jesus said it wouldn’t be easy to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Just wondering why all the Protestants here realize the Catholicism that was around before any Protestant was, if I were Protestant, I’d want to investigate this. And when you do, you’d find the Catholic church has existed from day one, that every other religion is an off-shoot from it. Don’t you get it? Peace.

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

Yes, Protestants abrogated their catholicity when they abandoned the dogmas of the Church. Protestants made a clear departure and are outside of the Catholic Church. If Martin Luther had never come around, Christian would always mean Catholic.

 

[BrianH]

Hello,

Martin Luther obviously changed the course of history, even though he was a Catholic monk because all that existed before him were Catholic Christians. My question being, if he had not changed history, wouldn’t all of you Protestants still be Catholics? I mean, because he came in and decided which bibles were to be taken out of the Protestant bible, and inserted his own words (which Jesus said to do this would be a sin), these religions are obviously man-made. The Catholic religion is not man-made unless you call Jesus the man.
If you know this about Luther, why don’t you Protestants remain how Jesus wanted it? In his Catholic church right from the beginning…is your church “easier” to join? “Easier” to understand? Many people can’t or won’t be Catholic because they feel it is to hard…even though Jesus said it wouldn’t be easy to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Just wondering why all the Protestants here realize the Catholicism that was around before any Protestant was, if I were Protestant, I’d want to investigate this. And when you do, you’d find the Catholic church has existed from day one, that every other religion is an off-shoot from it. Don’t you get it? Peace.

You would still have the Orthodox Church and its manifestations.
The German reformation would have looked different but you would still have had the English reformation and all of the Anglicans.
Zwingli and the anabaptists as well.
It was not a one man show; I find that view simplistic and not historically defensible.
BH

 

[CGDouglas]

Hello,
And when you do, you’d find the Catholic church has existed from day one, that every other religion is an off-shoot from it. Don’t you get it? Peace.

If I understand your wording correctly, Buddhism, Hinduism, and other religions prior to the establishment of the Holy Catholic Church, are off-shoots from it?

Or do you mean the actual denominations and non-denominations of Christianity?

Can I also ask, why are you making (what seems to me) an aggressive move towards protestants, shouldn’t you be questioning the schism also?

1stChristian:

If you know this about Luther, why don’t you Protestants remain how Jesus wanted it? In his Catholic church right from the beginning…is your church “easier” to join? “Easier” to understand? Many people can’t or won’t be Catholic because they feel it is to hard…even though Jesus said it wouldn’t be easy to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I would assume that they followed Luther because he taught the concept of only needing Christ alone (any Lutherans or Protestants out there, please correct me if I’m wrong on on your teachings, thanks. ).

God Bless.
Chris.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

You would still have the Orthodox Church and its manifestations.
The German reformation would have looked different but you would still have had the English reformation and all of the Anglicans.
Zwingli and the anabaptists as well.
It was not a one man show; I find that view simplistic and not historically defensible.
BH

For the Orthodox, if Western Christendom had not fallen in Schism, we would be much closer to reunion or already there.

Without Luther there would have been NO anglican Church–and no Calvinists either–they were directly inspired by Luther.

Concerning Zwingli and the annabaptists–assuming they were not inspired by Luther, without Lutherans and Calvinists splitting the Church and State’s resources it is unlikely the annabaptists could have continued as a cohesive movement.

 

[BrianH]

For the Orthodox, if Western Christendom had not fallen in Schism, we would be much closer to reunion or already there.

Without Luther there would have been NO anglican Church–and no Calvinists either–they were directly inspired by Luther.

Concerning Zwingli and the annabaptists–assuming they were not inspired by Luther, without Lutherans and Calvinists splitting the Church and State’s resources it is unlikely the annabaptists could have continued as a cohesive movement.

That is not true. How can you say that about the Anglican Church? Henry the VIII was not primarily a theological dispute. The conflict was brewing for years. Directly inspired? What are you talking about?
Zwingli was preachings in 1519 in Switzerland were not inspired by Luther.
What about the Hussites?
BH

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

That is not true. How can you say that about the Anglican Church? Henry the VIII was not primarily a theological dispute. The conflict was brewing for years. Directly inspired? What are you talking about?
Zwingli was preachings in 1519 in Switzerland were not inspired by Luther.
What about the Hussites?
BH

Perhaps and just perhaps the “Church of Henry’s Hormones” might have still started as a purely schismatic national faction–because Henry couldnt get an annulment from the wife he was legaly and sacramentaly married to. But without the heresies of continental Protestantism to further corrupt the schism, there would have been little barrier to reunion once Henry kicked the bucket. But WITH Protestantism of all sorts being allowed into the CoE, the break became theological as well as political.

Zwingli almost certainly felt enboldened by Luther–but even granting independence of action from that, if there had been no Lutherans and Calvinists to divide the attention and resources of the Church and the Catholic Princes, Zwingli would have been a sad footnote in history.

As regards to the Hussites–primarily they were Catholic in theology–until Protestant “missionaries” started working among them.

 

[inchrist101]

Hello,

Martin Luther obviously changed the course of history, even though he was a Catholic monk because all that existed before him were Catholic Christians. My question being, if he had not changed history, wouldn’t all of you Protestants still be Catholics? I mean, because he came in and decided which bibles were to be taken out of the Protestant bible, and inserted his own words (which Jesus said to do this would be a sin), these religions are obviously man-made. The Catholic religion is not man-made unless you call Jesus the man.
If you know this about Luther, why don’t you Protestants remain how Jesus wanted it? In his Catholic church right from the beginning…is your church “easier” to join? “Easier” to understand? Many people can’t or won’t be Catholic because they feel it is to hard…even though Jesus said it wouldn’t be easy to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Just wondering why all the Protestants here realize the Catholicism that was around before any Protestant was, if I were Protestant, I’d want to investigate this. And when you do, you’d find the Catholic church has existed from day one, that every other religion is an off-shoot from it. Don’t you get it? Peace.

Extremely narrow minded and uninformed. Everyone prior to the reformation was not Catholic. They were and still are Christians. Catholic simply means universal and was a word used to describe the church of Christ. As far as Luther deciding which Bibles should be in the Bible?? Um huh???

As far as getting it. Don’t you get it yet or are you too stupid to understand where Protestants are coming from. Get a life and as you say Peace.

 

[Jennifer_G]

I love watching what-if’s sometimes. People always want to over complicate things! (I’ve had people do that to me when I wanted to keep something simple)

Maybe a better question would be “What if there was no reformation?” (maybe they worked out their problems). There probably would be 700-800 million more Catholics, but, the world could be a vastly different place, too, I think. I kind of get the feeling that protestantism has taught more of a ‘theology’ of “self-thought”, a precursor to individualism (a cause of many revolts - now, there may still be revolts when colonies get too big and need to split from the mother country…). America (a country founded on people fleeing religous persecution from both sides) may not have even formed. Who knows what the 20th century would have been like, or even 21st century now.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hello,

Martin Luther obviously changed the course of history, even though he was a Catholic monk because all that existed before him were Catholic Christians. My question being, if he had not changed history, wouldn’t all of you Protestants still be Catholics?

**The Catholic church from its inception from Jesus Christ, has always contended with different views that come against her, and come to be accepted by her. For example; the early church, had to accept Gentiles into christianity, and this left some christians early became Jewish inorder to become Christian, Some Jews left their Jewish laws inorder to become full Christian, and then we had Christians who were never Jewish, and never followed any Jewish customs or Jewish Laws.

The Catholic church went through much sacrifice and hardships inorder to stay loyal to the teachings and Traditions of Jesus and the apostles. Many bishops got excommunicated for teaching error, many went into apostacy by death threat, others started their own Christian belief’s but faded out into history.

What we see today is a repeat of history in Protestantism. But the Catholic church will never change, she has already proved this by her martyred Popes, and saints, not even death can deter the Catholic faith from believing in Jesus, in fact most Catholics welcome death, for death no longer has its sting for the Children of God.

Besides Protestants and non catholics bring about the prophecies of Jesus, and the apostles to fulfillment from new testament times. The beautiful thing is, when ever one repents and comes home, all of heaven rejoices with the church.

Peace**

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Extremely narrow minded and uninformed. Everyone prior to the reformation was not Catholic. They were and still are Christians. Catholic simply means universal and was a word used to describe the church of Christ. As far as Luther deciding which Bibles should be in the Bible?? Um huh???

As far as getting it. Don’t you get it yet or are you too stupid to understand where Protestants are coming from. Get a life and as you say Peace.

**And your name is inchrist101??

Your right! Maybe clarification should be inorder, how about this?. Every Christian prior to the reformation was practicing Catholicism, because they believed in the successors of Peter the Pope, the Catholic priesthood, the consecrated life, practiced the sacraments, believed in the true presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the blessed Virgin Mary etc, for over 1600 years. After the reformation, the protestants took what they wanted from the Catholic church including the holy bible, and disected Christianity to their own demise today. Good news although, the Rock is still here unchanged with her arms open, to recieve you, or to be crucified for you. She has never stopped loving those who are of the body of Jesus Christ, and those who persecute the body of Jesus Christ.
Peace **

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Yes, Protestants abrogated their catholicity when they abandoned the dogmas of the Church. Protestants made a clear departure and are outside of the Catholic Church. If Martin Luther had never come around, Christian would always mean Catholic.

You don’t think a reformation would’ve happened eventually under someone else?

 

[1stChristian]

Extremely narrow minded and uninformed. Everyone prior to the reformation was not Catholic. They were and still are Christians. Catholic simply means universal and was a word used to describe the church of Christ. As far as Luther deciding which Bibles should be in the Bible?? Um huh???

As far as getting it. Don’t you get it yet or are you too stupid to understand where Protestants are coming from. Get a life and as you say Peace.

Yes EVERYONE prior to the Reformation WAS a Catholic Christian, there were only priests and monks around back then, there were NO Protestants whatsoever before Luther. Do you know your history?
Furthermore, Luther decided which books would go into YOUR Protestant bible because he felt the initiative to do so. Remember, he called the Epistle of St. James “an Epistle of straw”, and threw it out. Whenever any book, such as the book of Maccabees, taught a doctrine he didn’t like, he would simply say “throw it overboard” and overboard it went. What surprises us Catholics is the audacity of this man to do such a thing to God’s Holy Word. I guess you are bound to carve and cut out a bible and a religion for yourself if you want.
We have seen a corruption of God’s Holy Word. This is what I don’t understand about the Protestant people. Do they even know the damage that Luther had done not only to the one church Jesus started, but to the Word of Christ also?

 

[CGDouglas]

Extremely narrow minded and uninformed. Everyone prior to the reformation was not Catholic. They were and still are Christians. Catholic simply means universal and was a word used to describe the church of Christ. As far as Luther deciding which Bibles should be in the Bible?? Um huh???

As far as getting it. Don’t you get it yet or are you too stupid to understand where Protestants are coming from. Get a life and as you say Peace.

For a person whos name is ‘inchrist’ you are rather insulting…

God Bless.

Chris.

 

[CGDouglas]

there were NO Protestants whatsoever before Luther. Do you know your history?
Furthermore, Luther decided which books would go into YOUR Protestant bible because he felt the initiative to do so.

Don’t forget the addition to Romans with allein…

To back up your claim ‘1stChristian’:
Wikipedia:

The word Protestant is derived from the Latin protestari[2][3] meaning publicly declare which refers to the letter of protestation by Lutheran princes against the decision of the Diet of Speyer in 1529, which reaffirmed the edict, at the Diet of Worms, on Luther’s documents.[4] Since that time, the term Protestantism has been used in many different senses, often as a general term to refer to Western Christianity that is not subject to Papal authority.[4]

Source here.

God Bless.

Chris.

 

[1stChristian]