One Man's Musings

[23eagle23]

“But GhostMan is demanding we show some respect for men. So GhostMan, lecture your brothers out there about their immaturity.”

Ya, GhostMan,

Teach every man out there, and make them grow up…

This is silly, and an exactly his point…

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Judging all men by the one man in your past, is unfair…

Its been derailed, in my opinion, by your self confessions.

Forgiviness, isnt that in the Bible somewhere…

I have repeatedly said this isn’t about all men, and I know many admirable ones. But some of the bad behavior we’re discussing that GhostMan brought up was exemplified by my xh. What did you want me to do? Hunt through the forum and find other women’s quotes about their men? Sorry if you don’t like my “self confessions.” Just writing to let GhostMan know that the people he origionally pilloried for their easy get out of jail cards are living in a reality he has no concept of.

Forgiveness… you have no idea what you are talking about there. You obviously haven’t lived with someone who uses your Christian duty to forgive to perpetuate your own abuse.

Maybe we’ve had this man thing all wrong. Maybe they should be held to a lower standard than women and that will do away with our need to comment on their failure to live up to God’s design for creation. In which case I’m sorry for saying anything more should be expected of them. The poor brutes really can’t help themselves. (Here follows a condescending pat on the head.)

Our poor misguided former Pope, though, published many writings where he stated that men are the head of their own domestic churches and owed a responsibility to their families. I’m sorry I was misled by that and felt men were called to a level of leadership Ghostman doesn’t agree with. GhostMan is right, Pope John Paul II is wrong. Right?

 

[23eagle23]

"Our poor misguided former Pope,

though, published many writings where he stated that men are the head of their own domestic churches and owed a responsibility to their families. I’m sorry I was misled by that and felt men were called to a level of leadership Ghostman doesn’t agree with. GhostMan is right, Pope John Paul II is wrong. Right?"

Your bitterness and angry I can no longer take…

Good Day…

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Judging by Eagle’s last comment, there is no further reason for me to post on this thread. GM chose his initial post to make disparaging comments about people who leave bad marriages and seek the healing annulment process offered by the Church. He also braced his whole argument with a man vs. woman slant and a blame the victim attitude, implying that people chose their spouses carelessly.

I attempted to elevate his comments to a discussion about the role our society plays in encouraging the kind of sin and immaturity that makes women disrespect men. Eagle mocks that. He’s sarcastic. Calls it silly.

It’s more fun to gripe about women reading novels and having low sex drives than to exert peer pressure on your friends and improve the societal situation.

A man viewing porn isn’t the worst thing he can do. (But it ignores that such behavior is a companion to a lot of dishonesty, sneakiness, impure behavior and spiritual hardness of heart that can destroy a family and a wife’s trust.)

Eagle is right. It’s silly to try to make silly men see the seriousness of life.

Have fun with your silliness. But don’t complain when women view you as silly.

Ciao. I tried.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

though, published many writings where he stated that men are the head of their own domestic churches and owed a responsibility to their families. I’m sorry I was misled by that and felt men were called to a level of leadership Ghostman doesn’t agree with. GhostMan is right, Pope John Paul II is wrong. Right?"

That’s sarcasm. You showed it to me.

But you don’t like it in return.

You called a request that men exert peer pressure to elevate each other and improve their behavior silliness.

I don’t think this sainted pope would have agreed.

He spent his life doing just that.

I’m out of here too. Good day.

 

[GhostMan]

Oh, my head. I chose this post to point out the difference in tone and charity between sins of men and sins of women. In that respect, it has been a perfect example.

I also said I decry the ease with which some people decide that an annulment is owed them so they can get a free do-over. People have decided that I am beating them up, which - frankly - makes me sick. I decry the eassy annulment; I mourn the death of people’s dreams. Call me evil - I’m used to it.

The original point was the not-so-hidden adgendas of some people and the ease with which men are bashed. That’s all.

To everyone out there who got an annulment: I’m certain yours was correctly granted. It’s other people I’m talking about.

I’m so sick of people daying that if you don’t want to cast the first stone at a man who watched porn you are defending it. Political correctness brought to a religious forum!

If you don’t want men to speak, then just say so.

 

[GraceDK]

Women patient on this forum? are you kidding? that was Ghostmans point…Man does wrong, leave him, women does wrong, take care of her, be a loving spouse…

Isn’t this a Cathilic forum and not a womens forum?

And by this comment you make my point so very clear. I think my line was “women are patient on this thread”. I did not say they were patient on all threads. Neither will I say so about men.

Your agreement and added generalization: “Ghostmans point…Man does wrong, leave him, women does wrong, take care of her, be a loving spouse…” shows exactly ghostmans point… but in the reverse. Here is full-blown generelisation and sarcasm on account of women…

I have also seen men on these fora tell other men to not give their girl friends, fiancees or wifes a chance when I thought more understanding was asked for. Why dont you go after these fellow brothers of yours instead of only seeing the faults of women?

When it comes to telling a woman to consider leaving I have done that once to a married woman here … Her husband chose again and again to cheat on her with porn (which is adultery and betrayal) and I did not tell her to seek an annulment or divorce but because of her total devastatedness I adviced her so consider seperating from her husband for a time… I would say the same to a man whose wife comitted adultery more than once.

I have said before… I see a man-against-woman mentality and accusations and frustrations flying both ways in American Catholicism as presented on these boards unlike anything I have seen in the secular culture… Sad to see.

Liberanosamalo
… I appreciate your testimony and agree with the majority of what you write… but its also clearly marked by the attrociousness of what you have been through… There is bitternes which is a human response and that is okay. I think the bitterness that GM has experienced in his own life as a married man also is the root of his venting here in some not always objective lines.
However… I understand your pain when the crimes comitted against women seem belittled even by the men that call themselves our Christian brothers and fathers.

 

[jwashu]

Reading this thread there are a number of things that come to mind. First I agree 100% with what Ghostman is saying about how some women on this board jump to the man bashing and seem all to perfect in regards to their own lives.

What I find more fascinating is some of the information Liberano has shared.

I have to admit, I know a few guys who completely changed once they got married for the worse… but maybe 2. Most of the wander over time because of statements like the one about someone’s wife gaining weight and him not being attracted to her. My statement to those guys is to get over it and get over themselves. If she has stretch marks those are from her act of sacrifice for your mutual love and that of your child. You should rejoice at those not complain. Also ask yourself why does someone gain weight? How could you help? Again, Marriage is not 50/50 it’s 100/100. Figure out what she needs to get to where she wants to be, and help her. In turn I bet she helps you with your needs as well. She is your wife, not an object, it’s the objectavacation (sp) that truly causes the problem.

That IS due not to porn but the society that promotes sex from every angle and that it is somehow completely separate from the emotion.

While a Protestant I condoned or actually encouraged masturbation for the physical release… endorphins are a good thing right? Yet always with the caveat that it’s not a substitute. It’s a physical release, Fr. Serpa called it a completely selfish act and truly he is correct in that because it’s just you.

I believe over time that some men, for whatever reason, begin to associate the Renewing of the Marriage Covenant (ie making love to their wife) with a physical act. Maybe not totally but at least a little. If it’s only a physical act and not an act of love and union then eventually it matters less and less who you share that act with to them. (this is hypothetical but may fit as it would logically fit with the whole "mid-life crisis).

Anyway, I do believe that there are women out there, probably not those posting on this board, who were brought up in such away that they suffered what I call “the Knight in Shining Armor” syndrome. They truly believed that there was the perfect person out there for them who would make everything better. That’s a cool thing for those of us with a Savior complex because that is what we are looking for, yet most men are not those guys. Over time it becomes obvious that guys aren’t Knights but rather surfs who care little for their wife’s emotional needs. The wife pulls back, man gets upset, they don’t talk and a little brick is put between them. As this repeats over and over there becomes a wall the for many is unbreakable and they divorce. A few are able to break it down and start over, especially if they have assistance.

Yet I believe what everyone has to understand is that even in the best marriages there are times when a brick gets laid. That is why I stress talking so much. A brick here or there seems like nothing but over time… it can build up. The more time you are together, really together the more you have an extra set of eye to see that brick and throw it away.

Joe

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Thanks Grace.

And before I leave this thread I just want to say that none of this is man vs. woman. I just happen to have been the female on the receiving end of evil.

It works in reverse.

But instead of evil vs. good, some people insist on seeing life as man vs. woman.

And they seem to excuse evil or diminish the seriousness of it.

What you see as bitterness on my part is more my trying to sound an alarm that nobody warned me about. When you’ve lived with the full force of someone’s evil attacks directed against you, you can’t put a smiley face on it.

There are many ways evil manifests itself.

The Chief Exorcist of Rome, Fr. Gabriel Amorth, spoke of pornography as a great evil and a conduit into the home of malignant spirits.

What responsible man even wants to turn on that tap a little bit and bring that among his wife and children?

Our society embraces evil and calls it good or recreation. And the men who should be primary defenders of their families against that have made themselves part of the problem.

Call it silliness now.

 

[GraceDK]

Oh, my head. I chose this post to point out the difference in tone and charity between sins of men and sins of women. In that respect, it has been a perfect example.
(…)
The original point was the not-so-hidden adgendas of some people and the ease with which men are bashed. That’s all.

I disagree… or not … rather… I simply cant see what you see. I see the opposite… even in your own posts: a bashing of women, a pointing out of their sins and flaws while giving men a lot of understanding in their struggles… a lot of sarcasm.

Forgive me… but that is really what I see. Its not that I dont try to see your posts objectively… but it jumbs into my eyes that they are not written objectively, I simply feel slammed as a woman when I read your posts, … and I wont make a claim to be objective…
I am a person with feelings and a natural way of understanding and feeling with my sisters more than with men, whom I, even through the posts on these fora, feel more and more estranged to sometimes which is why I know I need to get away from these boards because I have always seen the best in men as well as women and I want to get back into that peace… even if its naive.

I have, since I started reading here, sometimes been thinking the stupid thought: I understand why some women become lesbian. I used to think men and women were working together towards the same goals of freedom, love and joy… What I see here really dissapoints me …

Let me illustrate. One day at work I spoke to a young gentleman… I was cleaning his office. then he left the room. The next moment I stared right into a computer screen with the wholepage image of the butt of a woman… a big butt… hardly covered… like the end of a beast ready to be raped by a male beast. I got sooo dissapointed and soo frustrated and sad. I FELT HUMILIATED. I hurried up my business and ran out of that office. I could not look any man in the eyes the rest of that hour because I thought: “yeah… you probably have stuff like that on your computer…” Then I went on thinking that the men on CF probably would belittle my instinctive feeling of disgust and anger.

I dont expect you to know how all this feels GM… but if you call for understanding, then try to understand us women too.

 

[GhostMan]

I disagree… or not … rather… I simply cant see what you see. I see the opposite… even in your own posts: a bashing of women, a pointing out of their sins and flaws while giving men a lot of understanding in their struggles… a lot of sarcasm.

Before I wonder if an adhominem attack has been thrust upon me, please show me some of these evil writings?

I posted about threads where I disliked the attitudes of the female posters and contrasted it with others. No person was called out, no woman was questioned. Even when my general direction was hijacked to be about particular issues of individuals, I tried to bring it back to the general topic and not respond to individuals.

If this makes you feel disrescted or you see me attacking women in some way, I’m simply going to shake my head in sorrow and fail to respond.

I respectfully disagree with you and reject your labels that you wish to attach to me.

 

[Pro-Life_Teen]

Wait, wait, wait, wait… what?

This thread has been derailed, and the hijackers are now leaving. Who helps the train?

The initial post was about forgiveness and the man-bashing on this forum that has annoyed me personally for years.

And then this became that annulments are a good thing- along with that the posts almost seemed to imply that men who act nice aren’t, no one knows anything about them and so… all men are potentially abusers and porn-pigs.

Now I had a point, and to an extent I believe it was similar to GhostMan’s. It wasn’t that legitimate annulments are bad, or that abusers should be stayed with. It’s that all men as assumed abusers almost immediately and that’s wrong. A woman writes about her fiance that went to a strip club [or similar, based on a real thread but I can’t remember it entirely]. Replies upon replies that she should move the wedding, cancel it, he isn’t ready to be married, women saying THEY would never allow their husband to do this and that their husband is a true Catholic man.

Well, wonderful that your husband is a good as you say he is. That’s wonderful. But some guys have stupid friends, or get stupid after a few drinks. Some guys mess up and are basically damned for one fall. One woman writes three paragraphs about her boyfriend/fiance/husband and we’re ready to tell her exactly how he’s probably addicted to the porn, won’t love her, will start to abuse her and she should leave him, divorce him- try for an annulment. It’s just like mine, he’s bad.

Men are not all the same. The same mistake in one man will not hurt the same way in another. Some men are actually truly sorry for their mistakes. They have gone to Confession, they have asked forgiveness. But they are treated as lesser, they are treated as if they cannot be the head of the family. The wife has to play mother, block his internet for him. Or just leave, take the children, don’t let him be near them.

I suppose all of these women have legetimate concerns and their significant others are all abusers. It’s possible that they only post when it’s too late, so they’re all correct.

But I’ve made a habit of forgiving people. Of giving them the benefit of the doubt, or not assuming when a woman posts about her significant other that he is in fact a porn-hog with a mistress.

 

[GraceDK]

The initial post was about forgiveness and the man-bashing on this forum that has annoyed me personally for years.

.

I have seen no generel man-bashing in the 3 years I have been on these boards… I have seen examples of individuals, of both genders, that went over the edge and made huge generalizations.

As a woman I have been much more aware of the many times where it was women who were treated unfairly. I was frutrated at the little tolerance and understanding that was shown when a woman sinned, suffered under the sins of others or in the endless treads about how women should be and dress in order to be “good enough” for the standards of pious Catholic men or in some instances how men are told to dismiss a girl or woman because she is not “good enough”, “pure enough”, “modest enough”, how its demanded from a male perspective that a wife is simply always evil if she “denies” marital relations etc… a lot of things written quite out in the open by men and sometimes even women too where I just .
You may think women demand far too much from men… but I can assure you the tendency goes both ways.

I dont think this thread is going anywhere…
GM is acting like a victim because he says his thread has been derailed… I saw it on the other hand turning very interesting through real life testimonies- maybe because testimonies always make generalizations crumble…

 

[GhostMan]

I have seen no generel man-bashing in the 3 years I have been on these boards… I have seen examples of individuals, of both genders, that went over the edge and made huge generalizations.

As a woman I have been much more aware of the many times where it was women who were treated unfairly. I was frutrated at the little tolerance and understanding that was shown when a woman sinned, suffered under the sins of others or in the endless treads about how women should be and dress in order to be “good enough” for the standards of pious Catholic men or in some instances how men are told to dismiss a girl or woman because she is not “good enough”, “pure enough”, “modest enough”, how its demanded from a male perspective that a wife is simply always evil if she “denies” marital relations etc… a lot of things written quite out in the open by men and sometimes even women too where I just .
You may think women demand far too much from men… but I can assure you the tendency goes both ways.

I dont think this thread is going anywhere…
GM is acting like a victim because he says his thread has been derailed… I saw it on the other hand turning very interesting through real life testimonies- maybe because testimonies always make generalizations crumble…

Grace,

You made a pretty serious accusation against me several posts ago. I asked for specific issues, can you please provide them? Otherwise, it looks like an attempt to derail a derail with a personal attack.

Thank you

 

[23eagle23]

Interesting…

Please look back over this thread…

Every male who has posted agrees with Ghostman…

Why?

 

[Nordar]

GhostMan, I 100% agree, and have nothing to add…

Liberanosamalo,

I will pray for you,

your angry and hurt are so strong in your writing…

I pray that your pain softens…

Peace

Why are you saying this?
Liberanosamalo is quite simply sharing HER experience with what happend in her life.
I do not see her as being angry at all men not in any way.
I think your post was quite condescending.

 

[23eagle23]

Why are you saying this?
Liberanosamalo is quite simply sharing HER experience with what happend in her life.

I do not see her as being angry at all men not in any way.
I think your post was quite condescending.

But you have no issue with her condescending patting of my head ?(check futher in the thread)

When I wrote that post, I meant it, and I still do… I have prayed for her pain to go way…

Atfer this post I found disagreement with her posting and derailing the thread…It wasnt meant to be a personal attack.

I left when her anger with men, turned toward the mocking the Pope…

 

[GhostMan]

Why are you saying this?
Liberanosamalo is quite simply sharing HER experience with what happend in her life.
I do not see her as being angry at all men not in any way.
I think your post was quite condescending.

Nordar,

Read post #44. It pretty much sums up the attitude Eagle is referencing.

 

[Nordar]

You talk like this… and yet you call your self and other men victims here because of women bashing men on these fora.

I see there is very little tolerance when it comes to women and womens weaknesses and sins… much more impatience with women than I see the other way around…

But as I also suggested in another thread… you and I might both see clearly… we just see it with different perspectives… me being female and you male.

There is this hint of irony to many of your posts… the grugde somehow against women in generel… and belittling of their emotions and the betrayal they actually live through when their husbands commit adultery through porn.

I think all the women posters here have been extremely patient with the generelizations made on this thread about women …

Thank you! I am reading all these posts and my jaw is on the floor, the judgements and belittling of women’s feelings is amazing.

 

[Pro-Life_Teen]

So the man-bashing is now being ignored in favor of the woman-bashing?

Can’t we just conclude that a great deal of people aren’t charitable on these forums and are quick to judge, sentence and execute regardless of gender?

We’re all human. We all mess up. But that doesn’t mean we’re to condemn immediately. And that seems the case.