One more question on wives submitting to their husbands

[rwillenborg]

Okay, I lied, it’s actually three more
I have read the other threads on this, but I still have not found the specific answers I am looking for. Thanks in advance for your replies!

Question 1:
Wives are to submit to their husbands, but what if their husband has a really really awful idea? What if their husband says ‘I would like to mortgage the house, liquidate our savings and the kids’ college funds to pursue my career as a rock star’
What should the wife do? Now, so as to be clear here, the husband is in NO WAY unloving to his wife and children. He would lay down his life for them as Jesus did on the cross. As a matter of fact, he’s incredibly confident in his musical talent and really and truly believes that if he were to go down this path that he would be able to be a better provider for the family. He is truly doing this out of unselfish love for his family.But the wife knows he can’t play two chords and even the cats run at his singing. What should she do? (And let’s assume all of the gentle cajoling and explanations and bargaining and compromises have failed. Should she go along with it?)

Question 2:
What if the wife does not submit to her husband out of love for him? Husband says to wife ‘Here are our costumes for the office Halloween party’. Wife says 'Oh, honey, I threw the invitation away and it’s too late to call anyone I know, but I am CERTAIN the invitation read ‘No costumes’
Husband is certain that it said to wear costumes.
Wife says ‘Okay, we’ll wear the costumes, but bring regular clothes in case we’re wrong’ and husband says ‘No, no, I read the invitation. It’s a costume party. Let’s go’
Wife knows that her husband showing up at the office party dressed as Fred Flinstone would look very bad in front of his bosses.
Should she sneak regular clothes into the trunk of the car, (showing a complete lack of trust in her husband) or just go along with it and put on her Wilma Flinstone costume? I wonder, too, what kind of a wife would knowingly allow her husband, whom she loves dearly, make a complete fool of himself? I know if I were the husband here, and my wife WAS clever enough to bring regular clothes I would be so grateful that she thought of it and saved me certain embarrassment!

Question 3:
Let’s say the wife has planned a relaxing weekend with her sister going wine tasting. She has already paid her money for the plane ticket, the car rental and the hotel. Not only that, her sister is very excited to take this trip with her and has been looking forward to it all year. Her sister would not go on this trip alone. The husband has no problem with the wife going on the trip…until the morning of, when he says ‘I’m sick with the flu. I would much rather you stay here and care for me. Please cancel the trip with your sister.’ Should the wife cancel and care for her flu-stricken husband? Again, she offers compromises - she’ll come back early, she’ll have friends and family come in and check on him, but really, he wants her to stay home.
Should she, and most certainly cause a rift with her sister?

I’m really just trying to wrap my head around this passage and bring it into real life actual day to day situations. Thanks again for your replies!

 

[whatevergirl]

*Doesn’t sound like the husband in these hypothetical scenarios really is acting as Christ would… The passage isn’t about turning the wife into a husband’s puppet. Whenever he changes his mind, she has to take note. That only what he wants, goes. There are men and women who misintepret the passage this way, but that is just it…it’s a misinterpretation. I might cancel my plans though to stay home with my hubby if he were sick, but knowing him…he’d tell me to go. A wife should respect, sacrifice and submit to her husband, but that doesn’t mean she becomes his puppet, and he is the puppeteer. Does that help? *

 

[rwillenborg]

*Doesn’t sound like the husband in these hypothetical scenarios really is acting as Christ would… The passage isn’t about turning the wife into a husband’s puppet. Whenever he changes his mind, she has to take note. That only what he wants, goes. There are men and women who misintepret the passage this way, but that is just it…it’s a misinterpretation. I might cancel my plans though to stay home with my hubby if he were sick, but knowing him…he’d tell me to go. A wife should respect, sacrifice and submit to her husband, but that doesn’t mean she becomes his puppet, and he is the puppeteer. Does that help? *

Well, I guess what I’m looking for is a line in the sand so to speak.
How is he not acting as Christ would? In the first instance, he is really very certain that he’s got the golden ticket for his family. What husband, thinking he had the golden ticket, WOULDN’T cash it in to benefit his family? And in the second scenario, the husband is just very, very certain he did not misread the invitation. He’s not being disrespectful to his wife. He’s just really very certain of what he read and doesn’t want to waste the time getting yet another outfit together before leaving for the evening. I’m trying to convey the idea here that the the husband in these situations loves his family very, very much. The man in my scenarios is just a man who makes mistakes like everybody else, even though his heart is full of love.
And then I wonder, does it MATTER if he’s not acting like christ? The passage doesn’t say ‘Wives submit to your husband IF he is acting like Christ’ - there is no dependency clause in there.
And see, I love and sacrifice for my husband, but if I had such an elaborate trip planned and I had a loved one depending on me being there, I don’t think I could in good conscience back out of it, even if I was sick, I don’t think I could back out. I would think in my head ‘Who needs me more here? My husband, who’s perfectly capable of making his own soup, or my sister, who without my going on this trip will lose not only all of the money she spent, but also lose her faith in my ability to come through for her?’ I guess I would probably still go on the trip and trust that a 32 year old man is probably fully capable of caring for himself.
I completely respect and admire that you would stay with your husband, but what if you thought your husband didn’t REALLY need you that badly, but that your sister did?

 

[whatevergirl]

*Ok, I see what you’re asking…sorry. lol

I used to be a very selfish wife in my beginning days. My husband was somewhat a selfish husband…we really fit well together! lol That said, while we were Catholics, we had lots to learn about how to be good to each other, Christ-style. Over the years, we grew in holiness, but it really took work…and prayer…and believing in each other. The examples that you listed…while they can occur in marriage, are kind of trite. I mean, I wouldn’t balk at my husband wishing me to stay with him if he was sick, or the halloween scenario…but liquidating the accounts, etc…to become a rock star shows a lack of prudence and respect. I think that while I have always been supportive of any dream my husband has had…when it comes to liquidating assets, a husband really should consult his wife and not just go ahead and do that…that is what I meant by not acting like Christ would. Remember, Christ didn’t force Himself upon the Church…He doesn’t force His teachings on us to this day. So, in that scenario, it’s like the husband doesn’t really care what the wife thinks…she is just supposed to come along for the ride like a ‘dutiful wife.’ Marriage really isn’t like that at all…well, good marriages. So, when we think of ‘what would Christ do,’ He would not force Himself upon us, or try ‘get His own way.’ He wants us to exercise our free will…He wants our cooperation with His plan. Why should a woman be given less respect from her husband? That’s the beauty of Him…and that is why following Him will lead to happy marriages. *

 

[JRKH]

Okay, I lied, it’s actually three more
I have read the other threads on this, but I still have not found the specific answers I am looking for. Thanks in advance for your replies!

Question 1:
Wives are to submit to their husbands, but what if their husband has a really really awful idea? What if their husband says ‘I would like to mortgage the house, liquidate our savings and the kids’ college funds to pursue my career as a rock star’
What should the wife do? Now, so as to be clear here, the husband is in NO WAY unloving to his wife and children. He would lay down his life for them as Jesus did on the cross. As a matter of fact, he’s incredibly confident in his musical talent and really and truly believes that if he were to go down this path that he would be able to be a better provider for the family. He is truly doing this out of unselfish love for his family.**But the wife knows he can’t play two chords and even the cats run at his singing. **What should she do? (And let’s assume all of the gentle cajoling and explanations and bargaining and compromises have failed. Should she go along with it?)

Based on the Bolded part, she should let him do it. With what I’ve heard on the radio the last 15 years it sounds just about like that.

Seriously. The scenerio you lay out is really not a practical one. The Wife should support her husbands dream but there is no need to throw everything away when it is entirely possible and even necessary to start small. That is - putting together a band, cutting a demo, playing local dates etc.
If, as you say these compromises fail, she should get him to a doctor cause he is crazy.

Question 2:
What if the wife does not submit to her husband out of love for him? Husband says to wife ‘Here are our costumes for the office Halloween party’. Wife says 'Oh, honey, I threw the invitation away and it’s too late to call anyone I know, but I am CERTAIN the invitation read ‘No costumes’
Husband is certain that it said to wear costumes.
Wife says ‘Okay, we’ll wear the costumes, but bring regular clothes in case we’re wrong’ and husband says ‘No, no, I read the invitation. It’s a costume party. Let’s go’
Wife knows that her husband showing up at the office party dressed as Fred Flinstone would look very bad in front of his bosses.
Should she sneak regular clothes into the trunk of the car, (showing a complete lack of trust in her husband) or just go along with it and put on her Wilma Flinstone costume? I wonder, too, what kind of a wife would knowingly allow her husband, whom she loves dearly, make a complete fool of himself? I know if I were the husband here, and my wife WAS clever enough to bring regular clothes I would be so grateful that she thought of it and saved me certain embarrassment!

Why is sneaking clothes into the car showing a “complete lack of Trust” in her husband? It is simply “hedging a bet”. Of course if she has concern she should put extra clothes in the car.

Question 3:
Let’s say the wife has planned a relaxing weekend with her sister going wine tasting. She has already paid her money for the plane ticket, the car rental and the hotel. Not only that, her sister is very excited to take this trip with her and has been looking forward to it all year. Her sister would not go on this trip alone. The husband has no problem with the wife going on the trip…until the morning of, when he says ‘I’m sick with the flu. I would much rather you stay here and care for me. Please cancel the trip with your sister.’ Should the wife cancel and care for her flu-stricken husband? Again, she offers compromises - she’ll come back early, she’ll have friends and family come in and check on him, but really, he wants her to stay home.
Should she, and most certainly cause a rift with her sister?

Keeping it as simple as possible I would say that the husband is being unreasonable, but yes she should choose her husband over her sister. But I feel sorry for the woman who is married to such a wussy husband who can’t cope with a flu alone for the sake of his wife’s happiness.

I’m really just trying to wrap my head around this passage and bring it into real life actual day to day situations. Thanks again for your replies!

Your welcome

Peace
James

 

[whatevergirl]

*lol, those are good points James. *

 

[Cat]

I think that the husband in all three of those scenaria would benefit greatly by having a male accountability group or partner.

I realize that Promise Keepers is not Catholic, but that’s the kind of thing I’m talking about. There is a Catholic equivalent of Promise Keepers, but I apologize, I don’t remember the name of it. Even having a good male friend or two would be useful, as they would knock some common sense into his head.

Men tend to travel through life in packs, and these packs keep the man from doing something too stupid, like trying to become a rock star.

At any rate, other men who are older and wiser would quickly lay the facts on this rather immature man, and tell him straight out that he’s being a complete idiot and if he keeps it up, he will lose the respect of his wife and children and possibly end up divorced and lonely. Men can tell each other these things.

One other suggestion is that the man in the three scenaria posted should stop watching television, or at least not watch the old sitcoms. I believe I’ve seen every one of those stories on a sitcom at some point. They sound like the older sitcoms, e.g., The Honeymooners.

I know for a fact that the rock star plot was a Simpson’s episode a few years back, and Marge’s solution was to send Homer to “Rock Camp.” Rock Camps are real (we have one in our city) and usually they’re for kids. But I’m guessing that a Rock Camp might welcome a grown man and it would be a good way for him to learn the difficult realities of becoming a rock star.

The other thing he could do is start or join a local rock band and play gigs in and around your town/city. I know a lot of men and women who do this. It’s a good way to make a little money and to gain performance experience. If he is really talented, he’ll get more and more gigs, and eventually find a way to get a break into the bigtime and big money. More than likely, he’ll play local gigs all his life and eventually be part of a geezer band. Nothing wrong with that at all! It’s fun and fulfilling. It’s a much better way to become a rock star then trying to immediately break into the big time. One of the biggest complaints from the entertainment world about American Idol is that these “stars” don’t work their way up and “pay their dues” like other “real” stars. It’s really best to start at the bottom and work your way up in the music business.

 

[ac_claire]

Well, I guess what I’m looking for is a line in the sand so to speak.
How is he not acting as Christ would? In the first instance, he is really very certain that he’s got the golden ticket for his family. What husband, thinking he had the golden ticket, WOULDN’T cash it in to benefit his family? And in the second scenario, the husband is just very, very certain he did not misread the invitation. He’s not being disrespectful to his wife. He’s just really very certain of what he read and doesn’t want to waste the time getting yet another outfit together before leaving for the evening. I’m trying to convey the idea here that the the husband in these situations loves his family very, very much. The man in my scenarios is just a man who makes mistakes like everybody else, even though his heart is full of love.
And then I wonder, does it MATTER if he’s not acting like christ? The passage doesn’t say ‘Wives submit to your husband IF he is acting like Christ’ - there is no dependency clause in there.

What I have been taught about this is that there is no clause on either side. You husband isnt commanded to love you and give his life for you only if you’re lovable and nice to him. Same with the wife’s responsibility to submit to her husband, even if he’s not he shining example of perfect manhood that his wife thinks he should be. There are no loopholes basically.

But, the cool thing is that if your husband isn’t as wise or conscientious or prudent as you’d like him to be, the surest way for him grow closer to being the husband God intended is if you build him up instead of tearing him down. Respect him and he’ll (either consciously or subconsciously) strive to be worthy of your respect.

As far as the examples you gave, I’ve had similar questions myself so I’ll let the more experienced wives answer. But seriously, those scenarios don’t sounds very realistic to me at all. A man who is an ideal, unselfish and loving husband otherwise but in this once instance wants to gamble away everything he owns on a whim?

 

[pseudosig]

What I have been taught about this is that there is no clause on either side. You husband isnt commanded to love you and give his life for you only if you’re lovable and nice to him. Same with the wife’s responsibility to submit to her husband, even if he’s not he shining example of perfect manhood that his wife thinks he should be. There are no loopholes basically.

But, the cool thing is that if your husband isn’t as wise or conscientious or prudent as you’d like him to be, the surest way for him grow closer to being the husband God intended is if you build him up instead of tearing him down. Respect him and he’ll (either consciously or subconsciously) strive to be worthy of your respect.

As far as the examples you gave, I’ve had similar questions myself so I’ll let the more experienced wives answer. But seriously, those scenarios don’t sounds very realistic to me at all. A man who is an ideal, unselfish and loving husband otherwise but in this once instance wants to gamble away everything he owns on a whim?

I agree. Even if the wife doesn’t respect him and tears him down, he’s still called to love her as Christ unconditionally loves the Church. In the same way, even if the husband has not the best idea, the wife is still called to strive for obedience. There’s something to be learned by each cross. I could be wrong, but the way I’ve always understood it is that if the morality/spirituality of a decision of a husband is less than the wive’s, she doesn’t have to listen. But if the morality/spirituality is irrelevant and/or equal to that of the husband’s, she should strive to be obedient. This is how the roll of head and heart are fulfilled. For the dignity of the husband (since he’s not the heart of the household, which is equally as important), the wife should try to follow his direction… that’s what head means, to lead and be protector. To tear down his seemingly lesser ideas destroys his dignity of what God intended for man. But in either case the husband should ALWAYS make decisions that are in the best interest of the wife. The cross to bear for the wife is patiently going along and trying to build him up. The cross for the husband is to not think of his wants and needs first, and not to trample his wife’s ideas. He should always listen to what the heart has to say, but in the end, as head, his leadership should be taken seriously.

 

[pseudosig]

I agree. Even if the wife doesn’t respect him and tears him down, he’s still called to love her as Christ unconditionally loves the Church. In the same way, even if the husband has not the best idea, the wife is still called to strive for obedience. There’s something to be learned by each cross. I could be wrong, but the way I’ve always understood it is that if the morality/spirituality of a decision of a husband is less than the wive’s, she doesn’t have to listen. But if the morality/spirituality is irrelevant and/or equal to that of the husband’s, she should strive to be obedient. This is how the roll of head and heart are fulfilled. For the dignity of the husband (since he’s not the heart of the household, which is equally as important), the wife should try to follow his direction… that’s what head means, to lead and be protector. To tear down his seemingly lesser ideas destroys his dignity of what God intended for man. But in either case the husband should ALWAYS make decisions that are in the best interest of the wife. The cross to bear for the wife is patiently going along and trying to build him up. The cross for the husband is to not think of his wants and needs first, and not to trample his wife’s ideas. He should always listen to what the heart has to say, but in the end, as head, his leadership should be taken seriously.

Haha, I’m quoting myself… but I have another thought.

A perfect example I always think of is in the case of Padre Pio. He went through many trials and seemingly unfairnesses when he was alive. But he was obedient in everything! When the leaders of the Church stripped away his ability to say public Mass or hear public confessions, he obediently listened. HE WAS A SAINT!!! Would he have been viewed as saintly for having done the opposite? He knew he was right and blameless in many of the accusations during his lifetime, but that “I know I’m right” attitude did not cloud his obedience. It’s a God given authority to the leaders in the Church and he knew to respect that. His obedience was sanctifying and in the end, he said it was sanctifying and NECESSARY!

 

[KCT]

*Doesn’t sound like the husband in these hypothetical scenarios really is acting as Christ would… *

I think that’s what people struggle with. Who decides if a spouse is behaving in a Christ like manner?

There is no list of situations.

 

[Rascalking]

Could we as people be really missing the point on this, the submit to husbands question? As a guy, I would not want anyone to really, “submit” to me. How? When? Does it ever stop?

While I would try to love my wife as Christ loved the church, I really don’t like the submit part.

 

[ac_claire]

I I could be wrong, but the way I’ve always understood it is that if the morality/spirituality of a decision of a husband is less than the wive’s, she doesn’t have to listen. But if the morality/spirituality is irrelevant and/or equal to that of the husband’s, she should strive to be obedient. This is how the roll of head and heart are fulfilled. For the dignity of the husband (since he’s not the heart of the household, which is equally as important), the wife should try to follow his direction… that’s what head means, to lead and be protector. To tear down his seemingly lesser ideas destroys his dignity of what God intended for man. But in either case the husband should ALWAYS make decisions that are in the best interest of the wife. The cross to bear for the wife is patiently going along and trying to build him up. The cross for the husband is to not think of his wants and needs first, and not to trample his wife’s ideas. He should always listen to what the heart has to say, but in the end, as head, his leadership should be taken seriously.

Good post. Re: your first line, what I have been taught is similar but expressed as the wife is to be submissive (obedient) in all things except for sin. So the morality being “less than” as you put it above seems to fit that criteria.

I do think people make way too much of this. Not that I should talk, because the whole concept freaked me out when I first learned of it. I had just gotten engaged…then as I started to understand it more I became obsessed with learning how to be the perfect submissive wife! Now things have pretty much levelled off and it’s just normal life lol.

I also love your head and heart analogy. It’s so fitting. The husband and wife are one body. Every body has a head and heart, both of which are indispensable to the health and life of the body.

 

[severus68]

Could we as people be really missing the point on this, the submit to husbands question? As a guy, I would not want anyone to really, “submit” to me. How? When? Does it ever stop?

While I would try to love my wife as Christ loved the church, I really don’t like the submit part.

Good for you!

 

[ac_claire]

Could we as people be really missing the point on this, the submit to husbands question? As a guy, I would not want anyone to really, “submit” to me. How? When? Does it ever stop?

While I would try to love my wife as Christ loved the church, I really don’t like the submit part.

Might I suggest that if you don’t like the “submit part” then maybe your understanding of it isn’t right on? The how? when? questions are hopefully what these threads are about, to help us understand more. Does it ever stop? I imagine it only stops when the marriage ends, or when you stop loving your wife as Christ loves the Church.

Are there any other more experienced wives/husbands who want to share how this works out on a practical level in your marriage/daily lives?

 

[whatevergirl]

*I wake up everyday, and try to love my husband the way Christ wants and asks me to…and my husband does the same for me. I think that the actual dynamics might work out differently for each couple, as no two marriages are the same. But, I think if we are prayerful everyday, asking God to help us to be the kind of spouses He asks us to be…and take up our crosses daily to follow Him in all we do…we should have successful marriages. More days than not, my husband and I just go with the flow…and try to love one another as God wants us to. I think that in these threads, some of you are overthinking things way too much. God’s word isn’t meant to be so complicated…I think some of the men and women on this board make it waaaay more complex than what it was intended to ever be. Be careful to not become too legalistic in your marriages and in reading God’s Word…marriage is meant to be lived out, and there are days when you have to accept the bad with the good. Marriage is unpredictable on many days…but if you cling to the Father in prayer, He will help you to navigate through some of the more challenging moments. The Bible gives us a blueprint or guide as to how we should treat one another as husbands and wives, but it doesn’t give us every single scenario that we’ll ever encounter…suffice to say, that if you love your spouse with all of your heart, and he/she does the same for you…you will have a wonderful marriage.

Just my two cents.*

 

[ac_claire]

*I wake up everyday, and try to love my husband the way Christ wants and asks me to…and my husband does the same for me. I think that the actual dynamics might work out differently for each couple, as no two marriages are the same. But, I think if we are prayerful everyday, asking God to help us to be the kind of spouses He asks us to be…and take up our crosses daily to follow Him in all we do…we should have successful marriages. More days than not, my husband and I just go with the flow…and try to love one another as God wants us to. I think that in these threads, some of you are overthinking things way too much. God’s word isn’t meant to be so complicated…I think some of the men and women on this board make it waaaay more complex than what it was intended to ever be. Be careful to not become too legalistic in your marriages and in reading God’s Word…marriage is meant to be lived out, and there are days when you have to accept the bad with the good. Marriage is unpredictable on many days…but if you cling to the Father in prayer, He will help you to navigate through some of the more challenging moments. The Bible gives us a blueprint or guide as to how we should treat one another as husbands and wives, but it doesn’t give us every single scenario that we’ll ever encounter…suffice to say, that if you love your spouse with all of your heart, and he/she does the same for you…you will have a wonderful marriage.
*

I don’t think God’s word is complicated at all. It just can be difficult (hence: “a cross”) to live out. Trying to explain or defend certain concepts can make them seem more complicated than they are, since we’re singling individual aspects out for examination in these conversations…The big picture is the completed puzzle, I imagine. If you just stare at the individual puzzle pieces (like, the word “submit” for instance) they’re going to looked odd-shaped and weird lol.

Anyhow, you make some good points.

 

[whatevergirl]

I don’t think God’s word is complicated at all. It just can be difficult (hence: “a cross”) to live out. Trying to explain or defend certain concepts can make them seem more complicated than they are, since we’re singling individual aspects out for examination in these conversations…The big picture is the completed puzzle, I imagine. If you just stare at the individual puzzle pieces (like, the word “submit” for instance) they’re going to looked odd-shaped and weird lol.

Anyhow, you make some good points.

*That’s an excellent analogy! How true that is…I think that it all comes together, when you just go through the day to day, praying and persevering as God would have you. (you being in general, not you as in claire lol) *