One more thread about submission

[Dulcie]

I’d be really interested to hear about any more examples of ways in which this dynamic has played itself out, and made marriages stronger, from couples who are in both healthy and traditional marriages. Or indeed about times when it’s proved difficult, and how you worked that out.

 

[Xantippe]

I have been married to the same guy for 17 years.

When we got married, I was a fresh convert from Evangelicalism. I’d also come out of a home where my mom was sometimes rather childish and on occasion did the “Don’t tell your father about this” thing (she wasn’t good at hiding stuff, either). I really idolized my dad when I was a kid and wondered why my mom didn’t just do what dad said (but now that I’m older, I realize that my dad did a lot of stuff he shouldn’t and that some of his expectations were unreasonable–it’s just I didn’t realize that at the time because my mom was scrupulous about not criticizing my dad). So, when my husband and I got married when I was 22 and he was 25, I was very keen on submission (and in fact I believe we used Ephesians 5 for one of our wedding readings) in theory, although I hadn’t really thought very hard about the practicalities.

However, there were some problems that I did not see at the time:

–Submission is way easier when you’re crazy in love and your husband is crazy in love and both are eager to please the other. C.S. Lewis has some interesting thoughts on related problems in The Screwtape Letters and The Four Loves–he talks about how the enchantment of love does the work of charity, but that eventually you’re eventually left peddling uphill on your own power. (My image, not his, but I think he would agree with it.)
–Once you’ve been married for a while, you have a pretty good idea of all the ways that your spouse can be selfish, lazy and stupid, and your spouse has a pretty good idea of the ways in which you, too, can be selfish, lazy and stupid.
–Life is also way simpler before you have kids
–As fellow CAFers may already realize, my natural personality is fairly assertive. Hence, a really heavy duty version of submission would be harder on me than it would be on a sweeter, more easy-going woman.
–I didn’t think about “hard cases” at all, let alone just the problem of failures in judgment. Probably the only time I ever saw a major failure in judgment before we got married was when we were engaged and we were thinking about wedding details, and my fiance said that we weren’t going to have any flowers for decoration (for the wedding my parents would be paying for…). He thought flowers were unnecessary, so we weren’t going to have them. As it happened, things went very differently than expected (we didn’t have the home town wedding that I had expected and we just did a very inexpensive Catholic elopement thing that we paid for ourselves with just a little bouquet and it was totally OK), but that was fairly typical of my future husband’s decision-making style when he had a big moral objection to something (and he has had moral objections to a lot of stuff). A lot of times, I have been able to budge him, but the problem is that initially, there’s no attempt to persuade me, just putting his foot down hard. He is making progress on that lately, because I finally realized the pattern (huge moral objections to stuff that isn’t a big deal but that would make me happy).

At some point in the past year, we realized that we’d never really thought through our views on submission in practice. It turned out that we had the two following wildly incompatible views.

1. I believed that I ought to submit unless it was a big deal, and then I shouldn’t. (In practice, I didn’t always do that, but that was the theory.) Then I got ticked off when he asked me to do stuff for him that was inconvenient or inconsiderate, but not morally objectionable. (For instance, on a number of occasions, I said I was going up to bed. He told me not to. So I stayed downstairs, even though I was dead with exhaustion. It turned out, he didn’t realize I wanted to go up to bed because I was tired. ??? Sad but true. Meanwhile, I thought he was being a selfish ogre forcing me to stay downstairs even though he knew I was exhausted, just for his convenience. A contributing factor to that situation is that I am ethnically a WASP and the 11th commandment in our culture is Thou Shalt Not Complain. I’m working on that, too.)
2. He believed that I had the right not to fulfill his requests, so he made a lot of requests that he thought I was free to turn down. (See sad, stupid story in #1.) But he believed that when he really put his foot down about some thing that was really important to him, I ought to submit.

So, we had a sort of Gift of the Magi situation going on–I was “submitting” when he didn’t really want me to submit. Meanwhile, when he actually wanted me to submit (when it was a big deal to him), I wasn’t, because it was (not coincidentally) a big deal to me, too, and I was fed up from fulfilling all sorts of petty requests. He honestly thought that I was never submitting, because it never occurred to him that when I was submitting, I wasn’t going to point out to him each time, “I’m submitting to you.”

It unfortunately took 16 years to figure that misunderstanding out, as ridiculous as it sounds.

So, I have good reason to believe that this is an area full of peril and opportunities for hurtful and unnecessary misunderstandings.

 

[hesso12]

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Well – full access to the Catechism – is not reflected in your posts – since you continue to ignore the Catechism and depend on erroneous fundamentalist protestant interpretations and your “spins/twists”

You keep on going on about me spinning or twisting things butIt is not me who is twisting it,it is you,you ignore the bible and the true meaning of the catechism on submission.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

Well – full access to the Catechism – is not reflected in your posts – since you continue to ignore the Catechism and depend on erroneous fundamentalist protestant interpretations and your “spins/twists”

You keep on going on about me spinning or twisting things butIt is not me who is twisting it,it is you,you ignore the bible and the true meaning of the catechism on submission.

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That’s your spin.

 

[hesso12]

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That’s your spin.

Got no time to argue need to go.

 

[Della]

You keep on going on about me spinning or twisting things butIt is not me who is twisting it,it is you,you ignore the bible and the true meaning of the catechism on submission.

We are NOT “people of the book” because the book alone cannot interpret itself. We are people of the Church because the Church has the right and duty to decide all matters of faith and morals. So, we are not moved by you listing all the things you think we ought to be doing from the way you interpret Scripture. The Church has stated her position in the CCC. That’s what we go by, not by your or my or anyone’s interpretation of the Bible, except the Magisterium of the Church. So, you are going to get us to bow down to your opinions which have no authority at all.

 

[hesso12]

We are NOT “people of the book” because the book alone cannot interpret itself. We are people of the Church because the Church has the right and duty to decide all matters of faith and morals. So, we are not moved by you listing all the things you think we ought to be doing from the way you interpret Scripture. The Church has stated her position in the CCC. That’s what we go by, not by your or my or anyone’s interpretation of the Bible, except the Magisterium of the Church. So, you are going to get us to bow down to your opinions which have no authority at all.

In relation to the “old” this is evidently something “new”: It is an innovation of the Gospel …However, the awareness that in marriage there is mutual “subjection of the spouses out of reverence for Christ,” and not just that of the wife to the husband, must gradually establish itself in hearts, consciences, behaviour, and customs. This is a call which from that time onwards, does not cease to challenge succeeding generations; it is a call which people have to accept ever anew. . . . The challenge presented by the “ethos” of the Redemption is clear and definitive. All the reasons in favor of the “subjection” of woman to man in marriage must be understood in the sense of a “mutual subjection” of both “out of reverence for Christ.” The measure of true spousal love finds its deepest source in Christ, who is the Bridegroom of the Church, his Bride. (no. 24)

John Paul II also gave the Church his Letter to Women and his apostolic exhortation Familiaris Consortio. These build upon Pope Pius XI’s encyclical Casti Connubii (1930) and Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical Arcanum (1880; “obey him; not, indeed, as a servant, but as a companion”).

In summary, it should be recognized that there is some distinctive headship of the husband. The Church, on her part, teaches that there is a complementarity between the spouses that maintains an equal dignity. In her wisdom, she teaches that the submission of the wife is part of a mutual subjection. This is another example of how the Gospel of Christ is a radical departure from the ways of the world.

 

[Della]

In relation to the “old” this is evidently something “new”: It is an innovation of the Gospel …However, the awareness that in marriage there is mutual “subjection of the spouses out of reverence for Christ,” and not just that of the wife to the husband, must gradually establish itself in hearts, consciences, behaviour, and customs. This is a call which from that time onwards, does not cease to challenge succeeding generations; it is a call which people have to accept ever anew. . . . The challenge presented by the “ethos” of the Redemption is clear and definitive. All the reasons in favor of the “subjection” of woman to man in marriage must be understood in the sense of a “mutual subjection” of both “out of reverence for Christ.” The measure of true spousal love finds its deepest source in Christ, who is the Bridegroom of the Church, his Bride. (no. 24)

Fine, but according to your other posts you don’t actually believe in this model of behavior. Those of us who have shared our real life experiences have modeled it quite nicely. We don’t need your interpretation, thank you just the same–we’re living it.

 

[Xantippe]

Here’s what I picture: You are 35ish, dressed to the 9’s, high heels and perfect makeup daily. You love red wine, ethnic food, and skim lattes. No time for the gym but you do trendy Pilate’s workouts in your spacious and perfectly decorated living room. You probably taught yourself to sew to save money on consumes and formal wear, and it slowly became a hobby and creative outlet. You used to work outside the home at a high powered corporate job, but you figured things would run more smoothly if you stayed home with the kids. And now you manage your home with the same diligence and energy that you brought to your company. And because you’re so go, go, go, you’ve managed to make your SAHM life at least as intellectually stimulating and stressful as your super corporate career was.. And if you’re traditional, it’s only because you’ve done the math and concluded that it is simply the most efficient way to get you and your family to heaven.

Funny! I’m actually quite a bit more hippie than that description.

–39 (almost 40)
–Northwesterner
–plump
–basic wardrobe (but I’d like nicer stuff)
–own Birks–multiple pairs!
–yes, love the ethnic food
–Returned Peace Corps Volunteer (Russia)
–love travel–don’t get to much
–MA in Russian
–former ESL teacher
–professor’s wife
–personal finance nerd
–adequate home (thank you twice a month housecleaners!)
–semi-retired Tiger Mom (we have 3 kids–Tiger Moms have at most 2–I believe soccer moms are allowed up to 4)
–addicted to skinny mochas (iced in the summer, hot in the winter) and clearance sale racks at kids’ clothing places
–somewhat tightly wound

Wish we could do coffee!

 

[Dulcie]

At some point in the past year, we realized that we’d never really thought through our views on submission in practice. It turned out that we had the two following wildly incompatible views.

1. I believed that I ought to submit unless it was a big deal, and then I shouldn’t. (In practice, I didn’t always do that, but that was the theory.) Then I got ticked off when he asked me to do stuff for him that was inconvenient or inconsiderate, but not morally objectionable. (For instance, on a number of occasions, I said I was going up to bed. He told me not to. So I stayed downstairs, even though I was dead with exhaustion. It turned out, he didn’t realize I wanted to go up to bed because I was tired. ??? Sad but true. Meanwhile, I thought he was being a selfish ogre forcing me to stay downstairs even though he knew I was exhausted, just for his convenience. A contributing factor to that situation is that I am ethnically a WASP and the 11th commandment in our culture is Thou Shalt Not Complain. I’m working on that, too.)
2. He believed that I had the right not to fulfill his requests, so he made a lot of requests that he thought I was free to turn down. (See sad, stupid story in #1.) But he believed that when he really put his foot down about some thing that was really important to him, I ought to submit.

So, we had a sort of Gift of the Magi situation going on–I was “submitting” when he didn’t really want me to submit. Meanwhile, when he actually wanted me to submit (when it was a big deal to him), I wasn’t, because it was (not coincidentally) a big deal to me, too, and I was fed up from fulfilling all sorts of petty requests. He honestly thought that I was never submitting, because it never occurred to him that when I was submitting, I wasn’t going to point out to him each time, “I’m submitting to you.”

It unfortunately took 16 years to figure that misunderstanding out, as ridiculous as it sounds.

So, I have good reason to believe that this is an area full of peril and opportunities for hurtful and unnecessary misunderstandings.

That’s interesting. I guess I had always thought of the mutual submission of the spouses as the dynamic that gets you through the general day-to-day stuff like one person being tired and the other wanting to stay up or similar, rather than the specific submission of wife to husband. (Obviously it goes without saying that this ideal of mutual love and submission is often unfulfilled what with us all being fallen beings, and also goes without saying that mutual submission doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t communicate with your spouse and explain why you feel a certain way.)