One more thread about submission

[hesso12]

**Proper Clothing for Catholic Women
**
“Men should not act like women and women should not act like men.”

[Deuteronomy]
{22:5} A woman shall not be clothed with manly apparel, nor shall a man make use of feminine apparel. For whoever does these things is abominable with God.
**
[Matthew]**
**{5:17} **Do not think that I have come to loosen the law or the prophets. I have not come to loosen, but to fulfill.
**{5:18} **Amen I say to you, certainly, until heaven and earth pass away, not one iota, not one dot shall pass away from the law, until all is done.
{5:19} Therefore, whoever will have loosened one of the least of these commandments, and have taught men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever will have done and taught these, such a one shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Saint Padre Pio use to refuse to hear the confession of women who were wearing pants or an immodest dress.

 

[hesso12]

Proper Clothing for Catholic Men

Clothing is an expression of one’s behavior, attitude, and role. Men and women should dress and groom themselves differently, as an expression of the different roles given to them by God. Men should not dress or act like women, for this is an abomination in God’s eyes. God created the human race with two genders, intending each to have his and her proper place in Creation. Men and women are not meant to behave or dress the same manner. Part of the beauty of the human race is found in the differences between men and women.

God’s plan is for men to be moral, competent, and to take roles of firm and fair leadership over men, women and children. God intends men to have roles of teaching, leadership, and authority over other men, women, and children. Women are not intended by God to have roles of teaching, leadership, or authority over men. Women may have, to some extent, roles of teaching, leadership, and authority over other women and over children. However, there must always be a man or some men who have roles of teaching, leadership, and authority over those women who exercise authority over other women and over children. Within the family, the wife has authority over her children, but her husband has authority over her and over their children.

God wants men and women to act and dress according to their gender and according to the place that God has given each one in Creation. Clothing and hairstyles are expressions of one’s thoughts, behavior, and attitude. Women are not mean to behave like men, nor to have the same roles as men, therefore they should not dress or groom themselves like men. And vise versa.

 

[hesso12]

Right.

Hesso12, you say you’re an Eastern Catholic, but your postings on marriage so far reek of fundamentalist Protestantism.

People have asked you to think about what the limitations of wifely submission are and you ran away from those questions.

Think about it–what are the limits? At what point is a wife justified in saying, nope, I’m not doing that?

You can’t just keep posting the exact same verses on submission without grappling with what the day-to-day application needs to look like.

Also, if you’re unmarried, not a priest and not a therapist, it is pretty cheeky of you to keep arguing about this with married people with actual experience of successfully and productively living with another adult under the same roof and having a family together.

Again,I am not a Protestant,but eastern catholic,In my diocese these are taught.

 

[Walking_Home]

Before protestant churches existed,the submission of the wife was followed in catholic church and still is,for catholic’s from many parts of the world.

---

More likely due – to the Catechism of the Catholic Church – not being widely known in those parts of the world.

And take note – of Pope Benedict XVI – his message on those parts of the world (cultures) – where women are subordinated.

MESSAGE OF HIS HOLINESS
POPE BENEDICT XVI
FOR THE CELEBRATION OF THE
WORLD DAY OF PEACE

1 JANUARY 2007

1. Similarly, inadequate consideration for the condition of women helps to create instability in the fabric of society. I think of the exploitation of women who are treated as objects, and of the many ways that a lack of respect is shown for their dignity;** I also think —in a different context—of the mindset persisting in some cultures, where women are still firmly subordinated to the arbitrary decisions of men, with grave consequences for their personal dignity and for the exercise of their fundamental freedoms. There can be no illusion of a secure peace until these forms of discrimination are also overcome, since they injure the personal dignity impressed by the Creator upon every human being**(5)

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/messages/peace/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20061208_xl-world-day-peace.html

 

[Xantippe]

Before protestant churches existed,the submission of the wife was followed in catholic church and still is,for catholic’s from many parts of the world.

Again, what does submission actually mean?

Does it mean unquestioning total obedience, or does it mean something different? Again, does the wife obey her husband in signing fraudulent documents? Does she get an abortion because her husband say so? Does she give her husband with dementia car keys when he insists? Does she give her gambler husband the money from her retirement? Does she buy alcohol for her alcoholic husband? Does she allow her husband to harshly punish their children?

Think about what you want women to do and formulate it clearly.

Page down a bit into this post and there are some interesting ideas that I posted on a previous thread, namely that submission and obedience are different: “Maybe submission is about something else. Maybe submission means that we consider other’s welfare before our own. If that’s the case, then we DO always submit–even in cases of alcoholism or adultery or abuse.”

tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2015/05/on-submission-wedding-showers-and-choosing-a-mate/

I’ve also thought that love and respect is the key. We can always love more and respect more even when it isn’t moral or prudent to obey.

Whatever rule we come up with regard to submission has to work even in the hard cases, and I would argue, ESPECIALLY in the hard cases. It needs to work even when the husband is a drunk, a crook, a drug addict, a gambler, mentally ill, a child molester, habitually unemployed and underemployed, senile, under the influence of mind-altering medications, or what have you. There are many, many ways in which a husband’s judgment could be impaired, and we need to have a teaching on submission that works under every circumstance.

 

[hesso12]

Pope St Peter infallibly said wife’s are to submit,to there husbands.

In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,1 Peter 3:1

 

[Sarcelle]

**Proper Clothing for Catholic Women
**
“Men should not act like women and women should not act like men.”

[Deuteronomy]
{22:5} A woman shall not be clothed with manly apparel, nor shall a man make use of feminine apparel. For whoever does these things is abominable with God.
**
[Matthew]**
**{5:17} **Do not think that I have come to loosen the law or the prophets. I have not come to loosen, but to fulfill.
**{5:18} **Amen I say to you, certainly, until heaven and earth pass away, not one iota, not one dot shall pass away from the law, until all is done.
{5:19} Therefore, whoever will have loosened one of the least of these commandments, and have taught men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever will have done and taught these, such a one shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Saint Padre Pio use to refuse to hear the confession of women who were wearing pants or an immodest dress.

I guess you and Padre Pio will disapprove of me then. At least my local parish priest does not refuse to hear my confession even when I am wearing pants.

I work around locomotives so I have to wear pants for safety reasons. The Catholic church is not sola skirtura. Padre Pio, though a saint, does not the Magisterium make.

 

[PhiloMed]

**Deuteronomy 22:5. The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

I Corinthians 6:9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,**

The Greek words there are malachoi for effeminate and arsenokoitae for “abusers of themselves with mankind”. A better translation of arsenokoitae would be sodomite; a moral literal one would be “man bedder”.

At the end of mass this weekend my priest said “Go forth and spread the Good News.”

So, Good News! We’re Catholic! We aren’t bound by the laws of Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc., etc. New Covenant! Jesus is Risen!

Personally, I’m so relieved because I have a hard enough time with the Metric System. Cubits would surely lose me.

 

[hesso12]

Again, what does submission actually mean?

Does it mean unquestioning total obedience, or does it mean something different? Again, does the wife obey her husband in signing fraudulent documents? Does she get an abortion because her husband say so? Does she give her husband with dementia car keys when he insists? Does she give her gambler husband the money from her retirement? Does she buy alcohol for her alcoholic husband? Does she allow her husband to harshly punish their children?

Think about what you want women to do and formulate it clearly.

Page down a bit into this post and there are some interesting ideas that I posted on a previous thread, namely that submission and obedience are different: “Maybe submission is about something else. Maybe submission means that we consider other’s welfare before our own. If that’s the case, then we DO always submit–even in cases of alcoholism or adultery or abuse.”

tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2015/05/on-submission-wedding-showers-and-choosing-a-mate/

I’ve also thought that love and respect is the key. We can always love more and respect more even when it isn’t moral or prudent to obey.

Whatever rule we come up with regard to submission has to work even in the hard cases, and I would argue, ESPECIALLY in the hard cases. It needs to work even when the husband is a drunk, a crook, a drug addict, a gambler, mentally ill, a child molester, habitually unemployed and underemployed, senile, under the influence of mind-altering medications, or what have you. There are many, many ways in which a husband’s judgment could be impaired, and we need to have a teaching on submission that works under every circumstance.

submission means being like the Holy Family.

http://www.testimoniesofheavenandhe...h-Mary-And-Baby-Jesus-In-A-Manger-Picture.jpg

 

[Sarcelle]

---

More likely due – to the Catechism of the Catholic Church – not being widely known in those parts of the world.

And take note – of Pope Benedict XVI – his message on those parts of the world (cultures) – where women are subordinated.

I like Pope Benedict XVI.

He is my favorite Pope.

 

[Sarcelle]

submission means being like the Holy Family.

http://www.testimoniesofheavenandhe...h-Mary-And-Baby-Jesus-In-A-Manger-Picture.jpg

Yes

Joseph had his work cut out for him.

Being responsible for the well being of both God Incarnate and the Immaculate Conception.

 

[Xantippe]

submission means being like the Holy Family.

Only one child? Move to Egypt? Speak Aramaic? Open a carpentry shop? Wear sandals?

Please be more explicit.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Unfortunately this topic seems to be going the way of the last one… But as I’d rather not have this locked down anytime soon, let me try to open the discussion to the posters who actually follow a “traditional” model of wifely submission in real life. As I noted, I doubt most posters who follow this model are actually into Christian Patriarchy, where wives (indeed women in general) are treated more like quasi-children, except for the sex of course. Most Catholics would not find it acceptable for the wife to commit obvious sins such as having an abortion, a threesome, etc, just because the husband wanted her to.

But in day to day life, how much autonomy does the wife have? What decisions does she make independently of her husband? Also, as many wives in such marriages are the primary caregivers for children, Does she make disciplinary decisions herself, or is it a case of “wait until your father gets home”?

If there are major decisions at stake such as, say, a work change or cross-country move, how much (name removed by moderator)ut does the wife have? Is it a question of trying to reach a consensus and the husband only making the final call if consensus cannot be made? Or should the wife behave as a supplicant who tries to gently persuade the husband? If so, how much leeway does she have to do this?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Also, if you’re unmarried, not a priest and not a therapist, it is pretty cheeky of you to keep arguing about this with married people with actual experience of successfully and productively liother adult under the same roof and having a family together.

Talking about submission in terms of “Women are only there to cook, clean, and have sex” isn’t really true submission. That’s where a lot of this gets muddled. People who take the most rigid position on submission also tend to believe that women should stay at home, not go to college, not wear pants, etc. And like I said before, if that’s what you want, great! Marry someone with the same vision. I have a few fundamentalist Protestant cousins who did that, and near as I can tell they’re doing ok.

But believe it or not, a lot of men want an educated woman. A lot of men would prefer to have their wives in the workforce. There are even men like my husband who find a nice pair of form fitting jeans more appealing than a skirt. I prefer skirts and dresses, but when we’re spending a day together, I throw on a pair to make him happy. My facial piercings were even his idea.

This puts the idea in a bind. I actually do agree with the idea that marriage and family life would drastically improve if men took a strong headship role in their families and we encouraged women to support them in this and follow their lead. But presenting that lifestyle and dynamic as inherently in conflict with modern life or treating women as adults won’t help anyone.

 

[Della]

Unfortunately this topic seems to be going the way of the last one… But as I’d rather not have this locked down anytime soon, let me try to open the discussion to the posters who actually follow a “traditional” model of wifely submission in real life. As I noted, I doubt most posters who follow this model are actually into Christian Patriarchy, where wives (indeed women in general) are treated more like quasi-children, except for the sex of course. Most Catholics would not find it acceptable for the wife to commit obvious sins such as having an abortion, a threesome, etc, just because the husband wanted her to.

But in day to day life, how much autonomy does the wife have? What decisions does she make independently of her husband? Also, as many wives in such marriages are the primary caregivers for children, Does she make disciplinary decisions herself, or is it a case of “wait until your father gets home”?

If there are major decisions at stake such as, say, a work change or cross-country move, how much (name removed by moderator)ut does the wife have? Is it a question of trying to reach a consensus and the husband only making the final call if consensus cannot be made? Or should the wife behave as a supplicant who tries to gently persuade the husband? If so, how much leeway does she have to do this?

A lot of the dynamic between husbands and wives is a matter of prudential judgment not of law. Everyone has his/her own personality, for instance. What might convince/move one person doesn’t work on another, so there is no hard and fast “rule” about a wife’s position or a husband’s position, just a general outline based on authority. It’s part of the human condition to have to struggle a bit in human relationships no matter what they are. I can only speak from my own experience. My dh is a sensible, level-headed person most of the time, but not always. I’m pretty much the same, so we generally agree on most things. That’s why it’s best to marry someone who is compatable, not just someone who gets you all excited. The Church has instituted marriage prep courses–called Cana classes in the US–to help couples prepare for the realities of marriage and to deal with such issues. Before you marry in a Catholic parish in the US you and your intended would be expected to go through a Cana course, except under extreme circumstances such as imminent death. So, don’t worry about it. Find a sensible, faithful Catholic woman, get married and work out your issues together in Christ’s love. No one can do any better than that.

 

[Loly_Maria]

My husband and I have a very balanced relationship and that works great for us. We discuss things together and make decisions together. When one of us is more suited to make a decision or it affects one of us more, then that person gets to have the final say. I can’t really imagine a situation where one of us would have the right to ‘put our foot down’ with the other.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Talking about submission in terms of “Women are only there to cook, clean, and have sex” isn’t really true submission. That’s where a lot of this gets muddled. People who take the most rigid position on submission also tend to believe that women should stay at home, not go to college, not wear pants, etc. And like I said before, if that’s what you want, great! Marry someone with the same vision. I have a few fundamentalist Protestant cousins who did that, and near as I can tell they’re doing ok.

Well this is interesting. Thank you for validating that many women choose to live a very traditionalist life. Recent events surrounding a particular Reality TV family have generated comments of “they are in a cult, the women are just brainwashed”, and although this may indeed be true in that particular subculture, it seems many socially liberal people assume that no women in their right minds would actually want to be a “home-maker”, which I think often betrays a contempt for traditionally feminine roles that actually strikes me as a kind of sexism.

But believe it or not, a lot of men want an educated woman. A lot of men would prefer to have their wives in the workforce. There are even men like my husband who find a nice pair of form fitting jeans more appealing than a skirt. I prefer skirts and dresses, but when we’re spending a day together, I throw on a pair to make him happy. My facial piercings were even his idea.

I’m not sure what this has to do with submission, however. Most women would prefer to have their husbands in the workforce, and many husbands do things to make their wives happy that they wouldn’t do on their own. Grow (or shave) facial hair, for example. Only very extreme versions of traditional marriage are built on an idea that “women are made for men” and have an obligation to please men that is NOT reciprocal.

This puts the idea in a bind. I actually do agree with the idea that marriage and family life would drastically improve if men took a strong headship role in their families and we encouraged women to support them in this and follow their lead. But presenting that lifestyle and dynamic as inherently in conflict with modern life or treating women as adults won’t help anyone.

Certainly, when the concept goes to the extent where the husband essentially acts like an absolute monarch of the family, accountable to no one except his concept of God, or perhaps some church elders, this goes too far.

 

[Xantippe]

Unfortunately this topic seems to be going the way of the last one… But as I’d rather not have this locked down anytime soon, let me try to open the discussion to the posters who actually follow a “traditional” model of wifely submission in real life. As I noted, I doubt most posters who follow this model are actually into Christian Patriarchy, where wives (indeed women in general) are treated more like quasi-children, except for the sex of course. Most Catholics would not find it acceptable for the wife to commit obvious sins such as having an abortion, a threesome, etc, just because the husband wanted her to.

But in day to day life, how much autonomy does the wife have? What decisions does she make independently of her husband? Also, as many wives in such marriages are the primary caregivers for children, Does she make disciplinary decisions herself, or is it a case of “wait until your father gets home”?

If there are major decisions at stake such as, say, a work change or cross-country move, how much (name removed by moderator)ut does the wife have? Is it a question of trying to reach a consensus and the husband only making the final call if consensus cannot be made? Or should the wife behave as a supplicant who tries to gently persuade the husband? If so, how much leeway does she have to do this?

I’m obviously not keen on the hyper-submission model, but I think that my husband ought to have a lot of say in where he works. But, I’d say that with the work and move issues, I think that’s probably more a bread-winner thing than a gender thing. If the family is not coping well in there current location, if they cannot afford to live where they live on the household income that they have, there really is no choice but to move. (But I’d think very hard before moving older school age children.)

For our last move (nearly 8 years ago), my husband went from a coastal metro salary of X to a Texas salary of X + $20k (roughly). My husband didn’t want to do the move without my buy-in, and the department actually flew me out for a short visit–making sure that the spouse is going to be happy is really important to them. So, we were both interested, we moved our family there, and it’s been very successful for all of us, financially, educationally, and interpersonally.

I can’t even imagine how the move would look if my husband didn’t want to do it.

And, likewise, I would certainly hope that my husband wouldn’t insist that I stay at a job that I hate or take one that I hated. And, in fact, before we had kids, he was very understanding when I was miserable with work a couple times.

I know there can be a lot more issues when one or more member of the couple has strong local ties (do we live near his parents or her parents?), but we’ve had to (thanks to the realities of the academic job market) be very mobile and have always lived thousands of miles from our families. When we got married, we used the verses from Ruth about, where you go, I will go and where you stay I will stay, and we have done that.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Well this is interesting. Thank you for validating that many women choose to live a very traditionalist life. Recent events surrounding a particular Reality TV family have generated comments of “they are in a cult, the women are just brainwashed”, and although this may indeed be true in that particular subculture, it seems many socially liberal people assume that no women in their right minds would actually want to be a “home-maker”, which I think often betrays a contempt for traditionally feminine roles that actually strikes me as a kind of sexism.

I do know women who have chosen it, but I know many more who were essentially married off at 18 and didn’t really have a choice. I also don’t define “very traditional” as “homemaker”. After all, Xantippe is a homemaker, but I wouldn’t call her a traditionalist. I will probably never be a SAHM, but my family has very traditional elements that the conservative catholic SAHM Xantippe wouldn’t want. It isn’t a linear spectrum with godless orgies on one side and the Duggars on the other. There are many different dynamics and systems that a family can have.

I’m not sure what this has to do with submission, however. Most women would prefer to have their husbands in the workforce, and many husbands do things to make their wives happy that they wouldn’t do on their own. Grow (or shave) facial hair, for example. Only very extreme versions of traditional marriage are built on an idea that “women are made for men” and have an obligation to please men that is NOT reciprocal.

Of course! You misunderstood, I’m not saying there’s no reciprocity. I’m saying that when Pastor Bob or whoever starts saying that submissive women must do XYZ and XYZ is in direct conflict with what their husbands want, then Pastor Bob isn’t really asking wives to submit to their husbands-he’s just telling women to do what he personally finds attractive.

 

[PolarGuy]

Hesso, you can post all you like…

…but you’re still refusing to answer the simple questions I put to you.

And that says all we need to know.