One more thread about submission

[Markus2007]

Hello everybody,

I haven’t been to the forums in quite while, but today I felt like visiting the site again and have a look at some of the discussion that are taking place. I noticed there was a thread about submissive wifes, or more particularly the men that primarily seek those. The thread got closed (maybe because it got somewhat out of hand).

However, I really would be interested in reading your take on this issue, just to see how you people interpret these verses in the bible that we all know of.

Personally the idea of my wife (I’m not married yet, so I’m speaking hypothetically) being in a submissive role towards me is not very comfortable to me. I don’t desire anybody submitting to me, especially not my wife. But I am a devout catholic and I recognize that there are certain verses in the bible that seem to imply this.

How do you interpret these? What does submission of the wife mean (and what does it not mean)?

Maybe this isn’t even for me to fully understand. Afterall, the bible does not say “men, make sure your wifes are submissive” - instead it states “men, love your wifes as christ loved the church” and “wifes, submit to your husbands”.

Quite a long time ago (I believe it was when I made my very first thread here) someone recommended the theology of the body to me, and Christopher West in particular. I have to say his interpretation of those verses helped me quite a lot. Nonetheless, I am curious about how you people interpret them (and live them).

On a sidenote, I remember reading my bible as a teenager just out of curiosity (I was only catholic on paper back then, but not really devout), and came across a passage that said “wifes, submit to your husbands”. When I read that I tossed the book away and was convinced that his cannot be God’s word. These verses have always giving me more problems than anything else in the bible. If I could change anything about the bible, it would be this.

But I don’t. I recognize that I am not God, and God is far wiser than me and therefore has his reasons for this. So I accept that it’s there, even though I don’t like it very much.

Thanks for reading, I’m really looking forward to your replies. I’m thankful for everybody sharing their opinion.

 

[Della]

I see I’ve written more than I intended, so read at your own risk.

In that passage St. Paul is discussing authority, not equality. He is not saying that women are less equal than men. Indeed, the Son of God is “submissive” to his Father, but he is also equal to the Father, so it has nothing whatsoever to do with equality.

Within a family there is a hiearchy of authority–one of fatherhood, motherhood, and of children. Children are to submit to the authority of their parents, but it does not mean they have less dignity as human beings. Indeed, kill a child and you will be up on murder charges because they are equal to their parents in human dignity.

The husband has to give his life to his family–in a priestly role of being both priest and victim, as was Christ. He needs to advocate for this family as well as lay down his life for his family. Wives too have this responsibility but under the authority of the husband/father. His is the greater responsibility before God–it in no way gives him the right to lord it over his family. Jesus is the examplar of the father/husband role in that he came to serve not to be served.

St. Paul was addressing a largely pagan convert community in which the proper order of husband/wife authority/responsibility was not correctly understood. The Jewish Christian communities had less problem conforming to this concept because their priestly order had this kind of hiearchal authority. Still, in Christ women had more freedoms and greater opportunities for serving God than they had in Judaism. St. Paul had to curb the mistaken concepts some pagan converts still had. Conversion is a process for most of us. It takes time to conform oneself to God’s way of seeing things for them and for us.

As a wife of 32 years, I believe my dh and I have a pretty good handle on who has what authority over whom and why. He is humble enough to be corrected if he leaves his socks lying around and I follow his lead on most issues because he’s a sensible person I can trust. But, I put in my opinions with no hesitation, but then, like the captain of a ship, he makes the final decision and we, as a couple live with whatever the outcome might be. Together we learn from our mistakes, being equals in dignity allows us to treat each other with proper respect even when we are mad at each other. Two becoming one doesn’t mean a constant battle for supremacy–that’s war, not marriage. Each of us gives 100% of ourselves to the other, and with that understanding we iron out most issues with fairly little hassles.

 

[EasterJoy]

Think about a good pastor running his parish. He has real authority, but he is not someone who “makes his authority felt.” Think about the lesson Our Lord meant to teach by His washing of his disciples’ feet at the Last Supper, and what Our Lord habitually taught about trying to be the most important or seeking out positions of honor. Think of what St. Paul taught in his great canticle passage in Phillipians:

*If there is any encouragement in Christ, any solace in love, any participation in the Spirit, any compassion and mercy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing. Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves, each looking out not for his own interests, but (also) everyone for those of others.

Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus,
Who, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
something to be grasped.
Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave,
coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance,
he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.
Because of this, God greatly exalted him
and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,
of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.*
Phil. 2:1-13

The New Testament is very clear about the Christian model of authority. It is not oppressive. It is not self-indulgent. It is a position of duty towards the truth.

You were right to rebel against a different model, one that is modelled on how the world handles authority. The next time you believe the Faith is off, though, do not just walk off. That is a temptation. Get clarification.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

The loonies have really hijacked the subject, haven’t they? I’m going to try to get my 2 cents in now, before a flood of people show up to insist that any man who leads or even aspires to lead a family is an abuser whose wife is barefoot, pregnant, and completely out of the loop in family matters. Of course, these people are often met with “traditionalists” who essentially claim the divine right of kings applies to husbands and women are to do whatever they’re told regardless of how sinful, harmful, or dangerous it is.

The ideal solution for most couples probably lies somewhere between the impersonal, contractual egalitarianism of the corporate world and the outright slavery that a few nutjobs in strange corners of the internet advocate for. The good news is that western society does not marry people off against their will. And, the catholic church requires that couples discern marriage and enter into it freely. This means that from both a civil and religious standpoint, you get to find someone who is compatible with you and who shares your vision for marriage, and then work to live out that vision together.

As far as my marriage goes, my husband is definitely the leader and this gets more true every day. But, we’re happy, we communicate well, and we don’t need outside approval. In the small, rural community that I’m from, men were always seen as the bigger, stronger authorities in their homes and they were respected for that. But, they also worked very hard, made sacrifices, and tried to spoil their wives. We kind of carried this dynamic into our own young, urban, DINK lifestyle and so far it’s worked really well.

Marital dynamics, authority, submission, and gender relations in general are fascinating topics to discuss. I’m not sure CAF is the best environment for it though.

 

[technatrix]

From everything I’ve read about leadership, it seems to be that in order to lead you have to serve the people you’re leading, to “love” them in the sense that you understand their needs and will put their needs above your own while getting the larger job done. In the words of Tywin Lannister, for any Song of Ice and Fire fans, a man who has to say “I am the King!” is not really a king. So, a husband who has to wield authority by saying “I am the man, we’ll all do as I say” isn’t a real leader.

So, my take on those verses is that a husband needs to strive to be the kind of leader that a wife would want to follow. Not dragging her along behind him, but giving her the foundation to trust his leadership. If he’s supposed to love her like Christ does the Church, I don’t recall Jesus running roughshod over the disciples and dragging them around. It seems like he just said “Hey, I want you to follow me. Come on, let’s go.” They could have balked at any time, but they didn’t, because he led well and gave them reason to trust him and they knew that he would sacrifice in turn for their own well-being. That’s what I figure is meant by the exhortation for a husband to love his wife as Christ loved the Church.

As far as the submission angle goes, in the context of what I just said, I suppose it would be an exhortation to be open to the leadership of the husband. Not that a wife should follow him off a cliff just because he’s the man, but that a wife should be willing to listen and follow good leadership and not be obstinate about being in charge of things all the time herself.

Just my two cents.

 

[Xantippe]

Hello everybody,

I haven’t been to the forums in quite while, but today I felt like visiting the site again and have a look at some of the discussion that are taking place. I noticed there was a thread about submissive wifes, or more particularly the men that primarily seek those. The thread got closed (maybe because it got somewhat out of hand).

However, I really would be interested in reading your take on this issue, just to see how you people interpret these verses in the bible that we all know of.

Personally the idea of my wife (I’m not married yet, so I’m speaking hypothetically) being in a submissive role towards me is not very comfortable to me. I don’t desire anybody submitting to me, especially not my wife. But I am a devout catholic and I recognize that there are certain verses in the bible that seem to imply this.

How do you interpret these? What does submission of the wife mean (and what does it not mean)?

Maybe this isn’t even for me to fully understand. Afterall, the bible does not say “men, make sure your wifes are submissive” - instead it states “men, love your wifes as christ loved the church” and “wifes, submit to your husbands”.

Quite a long time ago (I believe it was when I made my very first thread here) someone recommended the theology of the body to me, and Christopher West in particular. I have to say his interpretation of those verses helped me quite a lot. Nonetheless, I am curious about how you people interpret them (and live them).

On a sidenote, I remember reading my bible as a teenager just out of curiosity (I was only catholic on paper back then, but not really devout), and came across a passage that said “wifes, submit to your husbands”. When I read that I tossed the book away and was convinced that his cannot be God’s word. These verses have always giving me more problems than anything else in the bible. If I could change anything about the bible, it would be this.

But I don’t. I recognize that I am not God, and God is far wiser than me and therefore has his reasons for this. So I accept that it’s there, even though I don’t like it very much.

Thanks for reading, I’m really looking forward to your replies. I’m thankful for everybody sharing their opinion.

How about you read through those old threads? You’ll get a broad range of opinions and you’ll find that there’s a lot of discussion of the verses you have in mind.

 

[MaryT777]

It’s nice to read great replies on a thread about submission. Thanks to the above posters for eloquent, thoughtful, biblical responses.

Mary.

 

[Markus2007]

Thank you all so much for your responses thus far. I am especially happy that so many women responded, afterall it is you ladies who are most directly effected by these verses. All of you seem to have a very healthy understanding of the issue though, and your replies have been very helpful to put things into perspective for me as well.

Still, I think the discussed verses will probably never be my favourite ones. I try to focus on the ones directed at the men, those that call husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, and lay down his life for her.

I always found it interesting that it says “as Christ loved the church”. Christ of course still loves the church now, but it seems as if Christ as he was on earth is the model to go for. Not so much Christ on the throne at the right hand of the father, but Christ on his knees washing his disciples feet (as one of you has pointed out already).

He himself said it so beautifully, that he did not come to be served, but to serve. This is really what I want to do, what I hope I will be able to do. Serve my (future) wife as good and as selflessly as I can. But this perhaps will include leadership, too. I hope I will be able to do that, also.

Together we learn from our mistakes, being equals in dignity allows us to treat each other with proper respect even when we are mad at each other. Two becoming one doesn’t mean a constant battle for supremacy–that’s war, not marriage. Each of us gives 100% of ourselves to the other, and with that understanding we iron out most issues with fairly little hassles.

Della I think this is a really wonderful way to describe it!

The New Testament is very clear about the Christian model of authority. It is not oppressive. It is not self-indulgent. It is a position of duty towards the truth.

This is I think also a very important point. Authority in the Christian sense seems to be very different from the worldly kind. It seems to be totally upside down: God himself (who has highest authority of all) makes himself as a slave (like Philippians 2,7 says) so he can serve (but still also guide) those he has authority over. And it can be the same way with pastor’s, parents, and husbands. Maybe authority in a biblical sense, is a responsibility to serve, protect, guide, and sacrifice for.

Marital dynamics, authority, submission, and gender relations in general are fascinating topics to discuss. I’m not sure CAF is the best environment for it though.

Well I’m not here as often, but I was just really interested in the opinion of other catholics, or those who have an understanding of catholic beliefs. Sadly there’s always people who can drive a discussion into a nonsensical direction, but so far I think all of your replies have been awesome.

As far as the submission angle goes, in the context of what I just said, I suppose it would be an exhortation to be open to the leadership of the husband.

I heard Christopher West describe it in a similar way you did. He said the English term “submission” (“sub” meaning “under”, and “mission” meaning just that) means to put yourself "under the mission of someone. I don’t know how well that works with the original greek, but if it did: The “mission” of the husband would be to love his wife as Christ loved the Church and lay his life down for her, as mentioned earlier. So in that regard, the wife would simply be called to be open to this kind of love, and allow it to become a reality in the marriage. I don’t know if this is a valid interpretation, but I’d say it’s at least a rather beautiful one.

How about you read through those old threads? You’ll get a broad range of opinions and you’ll find that there’s a lot of discussion of the verses you have in mind.

I actually have the most recent one open right now and am browsing through it a little bit. But I would love to engage in the discussion some more and keep it alive.

It’s nice to read great replies on a thread about submission. Thanks to the above posters for eloquent, thoughtful, biblical responses.

I agree, let’s hope for many more interesting responses!

 

[Della]

Another book you might want to read, although not a theological work, but a novel is “That Hideous Strength.” C. S. Lewis had some good things to say about marital equality and submission, involving a young married couple, woven throughout the story. Even though it’s the last of a trilogy, it can be read on its own. I think you would find it interesting and perhaps helpful.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Thank you all so much for your responses thus far. I am especially happy that so many women responded, afterall it is you ladies who are most directly effected by these verses. All of you seem to have a very healthy understanding of the issue though, and your replies have been very helpful to put things into perspective for me as well.

(Bolding mine)

This hasn’t really been the case in my family. It’s been much, MUCH easier for me to just let go of control than it has been for hubby to take it. Of course, part of it is because I grew up with this as kind of the default. But the other part is that my husband views this as a responsibility, not a power grab. He knows who I am and he loves me for it. We knew before we got married what each of us wanted in life, what our goals are, and what makes us happy. He doesn’t use his position as leader to start taking things from me and kicking me around.

Here’s an example of something that just happened a couple of weeks ago: I am a law student, so I take part time jobs, internships, and freelance gigs any chance I get. Some of the positions that I take are very different and cool, and they pay much better than the part time jobs my peers take. I just started a new one in April that I was going to work close to full time at over the summer. It was for a consulting firm that goes into companies of under 120 or so employees and helps them train and restructure. I was really excited about this. Over the course of my first few weeks things got ugly though, and after a month, it was a downright abusive environment. Finally, my husband put his foot down and told me to quit. I hadn’t even thought of quitting because I liked the pay and I figured I could at least get through the summer. I told him as much and he still insisted that I quit because this was not going to be good for me or our home. So, I agreed to put in a 2 week notice. He clarified and told me that I was not going back and that I should call, text, or email someone my resignation now. I didn’t want to, but I agreed. If our positions were reversed I would have asked him to quit and I would have tried to find ways to bring in enough so that he could. But I would never outright tell him that my foot is down and that he’s done with those people. That just isn’t my place. If he wanted to keep the job I would have dropped it.

But I listened to him because I knew that he was looking out for me. I also knew that if anything bad happened to us financially, he would work extra hours or start freelancing himself to bring in what we needed. He’s willing, ready, and able to suffer the brunt of the consequences if it didn’t work out.

Similarly, growing up, my step dad always picked the car when it was time to buy one. Of course he took my mom’s preferences into consideration and tried his best to make her happy. But my mom always got the new car because he said it would be safer in an accident and it was less likely to break down and leave her stranded on a country road. So, since she always got the new one, she deferred to him on what it was because he would be the one driving it in 5 years when she needed an upgrade, and he was giving her the new car because of safety, so he wanted to make sure it was as safe as possible. Interestingly, after he picked, she handled negotiations because she’s VERY good at it and he hates it. They bought cars as a team and both contributed opinions as well as their own personal strengths and skills (like research and negotiations), but my stepfather made the final decision. And before you ask, yes, my mom worked outside the home and contributed financially. We were very poor and wouldn’t have made it without both of them working.

If you asked my mom about this, she would tell you how kind and generous her husband is. If you ask me about that job I just quit, I would tell you how protective and caring my husband is, even though I’m still a little bummed about the job. But if you asked our husbands, they would not brag about being in control or making decisions. They would tell you that a family is a big responsibility and one that shouldn’t be taken lightly.

I think that if it’s done the right way, it’s far easier to take a deep breath and trust than it is to be responsible for the wellbeing of others.

 

[marymary1975]

I am going to answer too quickly now that is still rational and before the loonies come in and the threat gets out of hand. In a nutshell the man is to be the head of the wife in a similar way as to Christ was the head of the church. The big question is how was Christ the head of the church and how he was the leader of the church. Christ was the head and the leader though service and through making his own life the example to follow. Jesus did not request the apostles to bend down and wash his feet. Instead he being the eternal God and King kneeled down and washed the feet of the 12 apostles. That says a lot. Jesus never directed the church in a selfish way and considering onlybwhat he wanted. He was the head through love, always thinking about others and always doing what it was best for others. He sacrificed himself and put himself last for his church and for all humanity. That is the kind of leadership to follow. Leadership by service.

If you read the other threads there are some quotes from the cathecism that clarify the language, also there are quotes from Pope John Paul II and his enciclycas that explain the issue further. Also reading Casta Cannubis in its totality (not the first two pages only! ) is very helpful.

 

[Markus2007]

This hasn’t really been the case in my family. It’s been much, MUCH easier for me to just let go of control than it has been for hubby to take it. Of course, part of it is because I grew up with this as kind of the default. But the other part is that my husband views this as a responsibility, not a power grab.

This really seems to be the key point when thinking about it. It’s not about having power over someone, but taking care of and looking out for someone. I would say it’s really crucial that if a husband were to use his authority to make a decision for his wife, it should be with her very best interest in mind, not his own.

I’ve also heard from some women that they prefer not having to make so many decisions. I don’t know if that’s the case with the majority of women, but at least many of those I have been blessed enough to get to know this was the case. When I was spending the day with a young lady (I guess you could call it going on dates), I would usually first ask them what they’d like to do or where they’d like to go etc., but often times they would prefer not making those decisions, and instead just sit back and enjoy (hopefully) whatever I had planned for them.

Here’s an example of something that just happened a couple of weeks ago: I am a law student, so I take part time jobs, internships, and freelance gigs any chance I get. Some of the positions that I take are very different and cool, and they pay much better than the part time jobs my peers take. I just started a new one in April that I was going to work close to full time at over the summer. It was for a consulting firm that goes into companies of under 120 or so employees and helps them train and restructure. I was really excited about this. Over the course of my first few weeks things got ugly though, and after a month, it was a downright abusive environment. Finally, my husband put his foot down and told me to quit. I hadn’t even thought of quitting because I liked the pay and I figured I could at least get through the summer. I told him as much and he still insisted that I quit because this was not going to be good for me or our home. So, I agreed to put in a 2 week notice. He clarified and told me that I was not going back and that I should call, text, or email someone my resignation now. I didn’t want to, but I agreed. If our positions were reversed I would have asked him to quit and I would have tried to find ways to bring in enough so that he could. But I would never outright tell him that my foot is down and that he’s done with those people. That just isn’t my place. If he wanted to keep the job I would have dropped it.

To be honest with you, I don’t know if I could do something like that. Of course I don’t know all the details, and if that job was really harmful to your (emotional) well being than I’m sure it’s best you don’t torture yourself with it. But other than that, I really have a hard time imagining myself “ordering” my wife to do something like that.

I really can’t see myself “put my foot down” as you said, and telling her that she must do something (or stop doing something), against her will. To me that seems rather arrogant even, because I would essentially say “I know what’s good for you better than you do”.

If I was in that situation, I would probably try to convince my wife that this is in fact an unhealthy work environment and that I don’t want her to suffer like that, especially only to make money. But I would hope that she ultimately sees what’s the right thing to do, herself. But maybe this is also a matter of individual personalities? I don’t know, it’s a tough call.

If you asked my mom about this, she would tell you how kind and generous her husband is. If you ask me about that job I just quit, I would tell you how protective and caring my husband is, even though I’m still a little bummed about the job. But if you asked our husbands, they would not brag about being in control or making decisions. They would tell you that a family is a big responsibility and one that shouldn’t be taken lightly.

I think that if it’s done the right way, it’s far easier to take a deep breath and trust than it is to be responsible for the wellbeing of others.

It’s wonderufl to hear that your own and your parent’s marriages are working out so well. God bless all of you!

I am going to answer too quickly now that is still rational and before the loonies come in and the threat gets out of hand. In a nutshell the man is to be the head of the wife in a similar way as to Christ was the head of the church. The big question is how was Christ the head of the church and how he was the leader of the church. Christ was the head and the leader though service and through making his own life the example to follow. Jesus did not request the apostles to bend down and wash his feet. Instead he being the eternal God and King kneeled down and washed the feet of the 12 apostles. That says a lot. Jesus never directed the church in a selfish way and considering onlybwhat he wanted. He was the head through love, always thinking about others and always doing what it was best for others. He sacrificed himself and put himself last for his church and for all humanity. That is the kind of leadership to follow. Leadership by service.

You bring up some great points. I think about the foot washing example often, myself. This was really a powerful display of “leadership by service” as you say. By the way, that phrase would be a pretty cool slogan, I gotta remember it

 

[hesso12]

Hello everybody,

I haven’t been to the forums in quite while, but today I felt like visiting the site again and have a look at some of the discussion that are taking place. I noticed there was a thread about submissive wifes, or more particularly the men that primarily seek those. The thread got closed (maybe because it got somewhat out of hand).

However, I really would be interested in reading your take on this issue, just to see how you people interpret these verses in the bible that we all know of.

Personally the idea of my wife (I’m not married yet, so I’m speaking hypothetically) being in a submissive role towards me is not very comfortable to me. I don’t desire anybody submitting to me, especially not my wife. But I am a devout catholic and I recognize that there are certain verses in the bible that seem to imply this.

How do you interpret these? What does submission of the wife mean (and what does it not mean)?

Maybe this isn’t even for me to fully understand. Afterall, the bible does not say “men, make sure your wifes are submissive” - instead it states “men, love your wifes as christ loved the church” and “wifes, submit to your husbands”.

Quite a long time ago (I believe it was when I made my very first thread here) someone recommended the theology of the body to me, and Christopher West in particular. I have to say his interpretation of those verses helped me quite a lot. Nonetheless, I am curious about how you people interpret them (and live them).

On a sidenote, I remember reading my bible as a teenager just out of curiosity (I was only catholic on paper back then, but not really devout), and came across a passage that said “wifes, submit to your husbands”. When I read that I tossed the book away and was convinced that his cannot be God’s word. These verses have always giving me more problems than anything else in the bible. If I could change anything about the bible, it would be this.

But I don’t. I recognize that I am not God, and God is far wiser than me and therefore has his reasons for this. So I accept that it’s there, even though I don’t like it very much.

Thanks for reading, I’m really looking forward to your replies. I’m thankful for everybody sharing their opinion.

am in

 

[hesso12]

What does the Catholic Church teach about the headship of husbands and submission of wives in a marriage?

At first glance, it appears that God intends the husband to have a certain dominance over the wife. St. Paul says in his letters to the Ephesians and the Colossians, “Wives, be subject to your husbands” (Eph. 5:22;Col. 3:18). He also says that “the husband is the head of the wife” (Eph. 5:23). Apart from Holy Scripture, there are philosophical beliefs, even arguments from nature that indicate a complementarity between the genders with a
leadership/protection role for the husband and a nurturing role for the wife. Looking at the history of the world, the dominance of men across cultures and time would seem to indicate a divinely created order. One might ask why St. Paul would need to affirm what history shows to be an established male dominance in the world.

As far as the Church teaches, however, the husband is given headship, but only insofar as he can be Christ to his wife. Headship is understood as a part of mutual subjection, which is why St. Paul first writes in Ephesians 5:21, “Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.”

When trying to understand Holy Scripture, especially controversial passages, we look to the faith of the Church for guidance. Regarding the Sacrament of Marriage, we have a number of sources: the Rite of Marriage, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and the letters of the popes, the shepherds who guide us to live out the Church’s teachings in our times.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

To put it simply, my wife and I are a composite, each working in our strengths. The man is the head of the household, but that doesn’t equate to being forceful, abusive, or deaf to the needs and wants of your spouse. My wife and I work together in almost all things, making decisions together; but if we disagree over something she’ll generally let me take the lead. I, meanwhile, always listen to her reasons and have to admit when she’s right and I’m wrong (not as often as she thinks, but often enough ).

Keep in mind, while wives are called to be submissive to their husbands, husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loves the Church. This means that, while a wife submits to her husband, the husband must die for his wife, and put the needs of his wife above his own desires (after all, we know for a fact that Jesus didn’t want to go to the Crucifixion, but did it our of his love for us and love for the father). This is true even unto the point of physical death. As husbands, we cannot sacrifice our wives to save ourselves; to do so would be to deny Christ’s demands on us in the Sacrament.

I know this answer is short in comparison to the others, I don’t have a great deal of time to elaborate.

 

[hesso12]

To put it simply, my wife and I are a composite, each working in our strengths. The man is the head of the household, but that doesn’t equate to being forceful, abusive, or deaf to the needs and wants of your spouse.

Yes this exactly what I mean,25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her.Ephesians 5:25

My wife and I work together in almost all things, making decisions together; but if we disagree over something she’ll generally let me take the lead.

You wife is wise on godly matters,am glad she’s sensible enough.The same principle applies to the employer/employee relationship. The employer should allow the employees to have their way most of the time; however, at times the employer will have to say, “I’m sorry, but you cannot do that.” The employees are to submit to the employer, and then a good employer will submit to the employees—but the employees must submit first.

I, meanwhile, always listen to her reasons and have to admit when she’s right and I’m wrong (not as often as she thinks, but often enough ).

This is good,you are wise,Yes, the wife is to give her husband “veto power” over her life.” However, a godly and loving husband will not try to manipulate and control his wife. A wife is not to be kept in a cage. The husband is to love his wife, encourage her, brag on her, and build her up. The wife is to do the same for the husband. Marriages could be revolutionized if couples across America would take this truth to heart.

Keep in mind, while wives are called to be submissive to their husbands, husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loves the Church.

Thats right.25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her.Ephesians 5:25

This means that, while a wife submits to her husband, the husband must die for his wife, and put the needs of his wife above his own desires (after all, we know for a fact that Jesus didn’t want to go to the Crucifixion, but did it our of his love for us and love for the father). This is true even unto the point of physical death. As husbands, we cannot sacrifice our wives to save ourselves; to do so would be to deny Christ’s demands on us in the Sacrament.

know this answer is short in comparison to the others, I don’t have a great deal of time to elaborate.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

This really seems to be the key point when thinking about it. It’s not about having power over someone, but taking care of and looking out for someone. I would say it’s really crucial that if a husband were to use his authority to make a decision for his wife, it should be with her very best interest in mind, not his own.

I’ve also heard from some women that they prefer not having to make so many decisions. I don’t know if that’s the case with the majority of women, but at least many of those I have been blessed enough to get to know this was the case. When I was spending the day with a young lady (I guess you could call it going on dates), I would usually first ask them what they’d like to do or where they’d like to go etc., but often times they would prefer not making those decisions, and instead just sit back and enjoy (hopefully) whatever I had planned for them.

I can’t speak for all women everywhere, but I always liked the guy to have a plan. Even now that I’m married, unless it’s a social outing, my husband’s makes the vast bulk of our plans like when and where we’re going out to eat, what movie we’re seeing, etc. I like it, it makes me feel like we’re newly dating. He’s actually really great at making sure we both get to enjoy our preferences.

To be honest with you, I don’t know if I could do something like that. Of course I don’t know all the details, and if that job was really harmful to your (emotional) well being than I’m sure it’s best you don’t torture yourself with it. But other than that, I really have a hard time imagining myself “ordering” my wife to do something like that.

I really can’t see myself “put my foot down” as you said, and telling her that she must do something (or stop doing something), against her will. To me that seems rather arrogant even, because I would essentially say “I know what’s good for you better than you do”.

If I was in that situation, I would probably try to convince my wife that this is in fact an unhealthy work environment and that I don’t want her to suffer like that, especially only to make money. But I would hope that she ultimately sees what’s the right thing to do, herself. But maybe this is also a matter of individual personalities? I don’t know, it’s a tough call.

You definitely don’t have to, I’m just giving example of what submission might look like off of a fundamentalist compound. A lot of times these conversations focus a lot on yesteryear. Just keeping things relevant. .

Don’t get me wrong, he wasn’t mean or domineering. It was very much a “No one is going to talk to my wife like that or subject her to abuse, not even her” thing. And he was right, they were awful and with my anxiety disorder, that environment would have killed my spirit (and I thrive in law firms!). We’ve talked about this arrangement at length, and what it comes down to is that if I want a strong, protective, decisive husband, then I need to let him protect me and I need to let him make decisions.

He doesn’t throw his weight around, make frivolous demands, or play ego games.

There’s an episode of Golden Girls where Blanche is upset that a man she’s dating keeps treating her like an equal. Finally, she snaps and says she doesn’t want to be treated like his equal, she wants to be treated way better than him! I totally understand her sentiments, but it is a trade off. If you want a man to be responsible for treating you a certain way, then he needs to have the authority to be able to do so. Otherwise you’re just squeezing perks from him without giving up any ground yourself. That’s not fair.

 

[Xantippe]

I’ve also heard from some women that they prefer not having to make so many decisions. I don’t know if that’s the case with the majority of women, but at least many of those I have been blessed enough to get to know this was the case. When I was spending the day with a young lady (I guess you could call it going on dates), I would usually first ask them what they’d like to do or where they’d like to go etc., but often times they would prefer not making those decisions, and instead just sit back and enjoy (hopefully) whatever I had planned for them.

**Well, it is the responsibility of a host to make arrangements to feed entertain a guest. People forget this, but if you ask somebody on a date, you are the host, and they are the guest.

In normal hospitality, the host plans together food and/or entertainment for the guest and then issues invitations. It would be weird and uncomfortable and lame for a host to ask, “I’d like to invite you over for Friday night. What should I serve and what should we do for entertainment?” **

If I was in that situation, I would probably try to convince my wife that this is in fact an unhealthy work environment and that I don’t want her to suffer like that, especially only to make money. But I would hope that she ultimately sees what’s the right thing to do, herself. But maybe this is also a matter of individual personalities? I don’t know, it’s a tough call.

**The wife might also feel that she has a moral obligation to her employer to not leave them in the lurch.

(Of course, if the place of work was REALLY immoral, I don’t think there is a moral obligation to give them any notice.)
**

 

[Markus2007]

As far as the Church teaches, however, the husband is given headship, but only insofar as he can be Christ to his wife. Headship is understood as a part of mutual subjection, which is why St. Paul first writes in Ephesians 5:21, “Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.”

You know, while thinking so much about the verses talking about the submission of the wife, I almost forgot about the following verse which calls for mutual submission. We should never forget that husbands and wifes are also called to submit to one another, so a husband submitting to his wife in certain situations or circumstances will at times be the right thing to do.

When trying to understand Holy Scripture, especially controversial passages, we look to the faith of the Church for guidance. Regarding the Sacrament of Marriage, we have a number of sources: the Rite of Marriage, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and the letters of the popes, the shepherds who guide us to live out the Church’s teachings in our times.

And what a great advantage that is over non-catholic christians. If we look at the rich theological and intellectual treasures of the church, we can never wander too far off into something contrary to the truth of our faith, and we are protected from grossly misinterpreting more difficult verses like the ones we are talking about.

The man is the head of the household, but that doesn’t equate to being forceful, abusive, or deaf to the needs and wants of your spouse.

I think we can not stress this enough. If there is maybe some lady reading our discussion or coming across this post by accident and wonders about these things: Please always remember that you are a beloved daughter of the living God, and it is not right if you are not treated well or even being abused by the man that is supposed to love you more than anything in the world.

Keep in mind, while wives are called to be submissive to their husbands, husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loves the Church. This means that, while a wife submits to her husband, the husband must die for his wife, and put the needs of his wife above his own desires (after all, we know for a fact that Jesus didn’t want to go to the Crucifixion, but did it our of his love for us and love for the father). This is true even unto the point of physical death. As husbands, we cannot sacrifice our wives to save ourselves; to do so would be to deny Christ’s demands on us in the Sacrament.

That’s a great point regarding Jesus and the crucifixion. Often enough love will call us to do something that we, from an egoistic perspective, would not want to do - but we do it anyways purely for the good of the beloved.

Don’t get me wrong, he wasn’t mean or domineering. It was very much a “No one is going to talk to my wife like that or subject her to abuse, not even her” thing. And he was right, they were awful and with my anxiety disorder, that environment would have killed my spirit (and I thrive in law firms!). We’ve talked about this arrangement at length, and what it comes down to is that if I want a strong, protective, decisive husband, then I need to let him protect me and I need to let him make decisions.

I think that is a great attitude from both of you!

There’s an episode of Golden Girls where Blanche is upset that a man she’s dating keeps treating her like an equal. Finally, she snaps and says she doesn’t want to be treated like his equal, she wants to be treated way better than him! I totally understand her sentiments, but it is a trade off. If you want a man to be responsible for treating you a certain way, then he needs to have the authority to be able to do so. Otherwise you’re just squeezing perks from him without giving up any ground yourself. That’s not fair.

I’ve never watched the Golden Girls, but that’s an awesome line of her

From the man’s perspective, I wouldn’t even see a problem with it. Thinking about it, that is actually exactly what I want. I want to treat her better than myself. I don’t want her to suffer, I want to be the one suffering for her well-being or on her behalf.

Maybe this is why those verses were always so problematic for me, because I subconsciously associate(d) submission with being treated as less, or not as well. Even though in reality this is not the case, at least not if done the right way (as you and others have pointed out in this thread).

 

[Xantippe]

I can’t speak for all women everywhere, but I always liked the guy to have a plan. Even now that I’m married, unless it’s a social outing, my husband’s makes the vast bulk of our plans like when and where we’re going out to eat, what movie we’re seeing, etc. I like it, it makes me feel like we’re newly dating. He’s actually really great at making sure we both get to enjoy our preferences.

Researching going-out options is definitely a nice way for a husband to show that he values time with his wife and that he wants to make it special, especially when it’s a rare treat. I wouldn’t actually recommend dictating a plan (except to BEL!) but narrowing it down to two choices is helpful. If she has an alternate preference, she’ll tell you.

In normal American homes, it’s standard for mom to be the official Planner of Everything for everybody in the family–scheduler of every doctor’s apt, dental apt, optometrist’s apt, parent-teacher conference, playdate, etc… To ask mom to also plan every single date, make every single reservation, buy every ticket, and schedule every single babysitter is kind of a busman’s holiday.

On a related issue, I had been married for a number of years before it finally occurred to me that my family’s tradition of having mom buy and wrap her own birthday and Christmas gift was really screwed up.