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fultonfish
Guest
We had a visiting priest who, sarcastically, said that The Ten Commandments have not been changed to be “the ten really groovy suggestions”.
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J
JRKH
Guest
Take 'er easy there buddy.
Lets not get off an another tangent here.
Lets stay focused on the original scenerio.
Taking your points in order:
Peace
- Yes Jack messed up big time.
- We cannot “forget his life up to that point”, since the OP did not provide us with that data. Therefore we cannot make comment on it.
- Likewise any mitigating circumstances. Tho OP provided none. In fact he made it clear that there were no mitigating circumstances, at least not immediate ones.
- No one is saying they are happy about Jack’s, and your, fate. It is the ardent wish of every Catholic that everyone be received into heaven. It is also God’s wish. However, we cannot force you into heaven, nor will God interfere with your free will to choose to reject him. In the case of those who choose hell, all we can do is lament them.
- If you would like to provide a revised scenerio of Jacks demise, providing whatever background and mitigating evidence you wish, I’m sure that we would be happy to comment on it.
- Your final comment is quite emotional. I hope that you do not think that we take such things lightly or coldly. There are many on the path to hell. Catholics pray for them constantly. We pray that they are converted to God and that they will acheive heaven. In fact I hope to see you there one day.
James
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DanteAlighieri
Guest
The important thing that seems to be forgotten in this conversation is that, if Jack has truly been conforming his will to Gods, he is involved in a process that, eventually, will condition his will such that he won’t make as absurd a choice as playing golf instead of going to Mass and then deliberately skipping his only opportunity to make up for it. The point being that, if Jack is truly as “good” as the OP is trying to make him sound, the idea of skipping Mass for something so trivial would likely never even occur to him, and certainly would not appear to be “no big deal” to him.
Thus, there’s every possibility that, even if Jack does “live a good life”, his heart wasn’t in it in the first place if he’s willing to risk his soul for a round of golf and a steak. It’s not about how many points one scores; one cannot possibly “earn” or “deserve” heaven. It is a gift given to those whose wills are properly conformed to God’s.
If a round of golf is more important than the Eucharist, how well conformed is your will?
Peace,
Dante
Thus, there’s every possibility that, even if Jack does “live a good life”, his heart wasn’t in it in the first place if he’s willing to risk his soul for a round of golf and a steak. It’s not about how many points one scores; one cannot possibly “earn” or “deserve” heaven. It is a gift given to those whose wills are properly conformed to God’s.
If a round of golf is more important than the Eucharist, how well conformed is your will?
Peace,
Dante
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DanteAlighieri
Guest
This post indicates an unwillingness to debate the issue on its merits, not to mention a certain lack of charity.
If you want people to take you seriously, you shouldn’t belittle their beliefs by distilling it down to a bitter misinterpretation thereof.
Peace,
Dante
J
JRKH
Guest
YES!!The important thing that seems to be forgotten in this conversation is that, if Jack has truly been conforming his will to Gods, he is involved in a process that, eventually, will condition his will such that he won’t make as absurd a choice as playing golf instead of going to Mass and then deliberately skipping his only opportunity to make up for it. The point being that, if Jack is truly as “good” as the OP is trying to make him sound, the idea of skipping Mass for something so trivial would likely never even occur to him, and certainly would not appear to be “no big deal” to him.
Thus, there’s every possibility that, even if Jack does “live a good life”, his heart wasn’t in it in the first place if he’s willing to risk his soul for a round of golf and a steak. It’s not about how many points one scores; one cannot possibly “earn” or “deserve” heaven. It is a gift given to those whose wills are properly conformed to God’s.
If a round of golf is more important than the Eucharist, how well conformed is your will?
Peace,
Dante
I tried to allude to this in one of my earlier posts but you have said it perfectly.
As we move more closely to God in Love and Holy Obedience, such decisions become, “No brainers”. It’s Sunday - Mass is an absolute must.
Peace
James
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Jack recieved several sacraments from the church I can rightly assume here.
I have been told these sacraments offer a special grace from God.
Now, help me understand how any of that special grace from God actually mattered at all if he can end up in the same manner as you believe I will?
Do you all understand why this is so very hard to understand, and why I seem to be very concerned about Jack’s situation? I’m not assualting your beliefs, I am trying to reconcile what I am learning about them with real life senarios and Jack is about the closest thing to that even though he is hypothetical and dead and, I guess in hell.
I have been told these sacraments offer a special grace from God.
Now, help me understand how any of that special grace from God actually mattered at all if he can end up in the same manner as you believe I will?
Do you all understand why this is so very hard to understand, and why I seem to be very concerned about Jack’s situation? I’m not assualting your beliefs, I am trying to reconcile what I am learning about them with real life senarios and Jack is about the closest thing to that even though he is hypothetical and dead and, I guess in hell.
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Spirithound
Guest
Grace is not a magic charm. It does not overpower free will. It can bolster free will.
I appreciate that you want to search out the “why”, but that is beyond the scope of this thread. The OP gave a situation and asked us to respond to it. He didn’t ask us whether the situation is possible or even plausible.
BTW, the situation is possible and plausible. As I have said earlier, I have sinned mortally, but I have repented.
T
theinquisitive
Guest
We all seem to be so concernd a bout “Jack”
That is understandable… but I think we miss the point here…
Jack commited (according to the “rules”) a fatal unforgivable sin…
The rules are NOT made by “man” but by God . We can speculate from now untill eternity,the last word is by God.
If ,we are to believe that God is a loving God,full of mercy and forgivness we can of course come to the conclusion,that God will be able to look into his heart,see the “sin” for what it was…A lapse on Jack’s part? We read,Jack himself was concernd about missing Mass,thought he could do some kind of penance,at a later date…sadly there was no time…
Do we really believe that,the God,to whom we all pray to for forgivness (for our own sins), would be so “unjust”/unforgiving, as to condemmn Jack(whom we are told,has in the past visited Mass regularily),to everlasting DEATH… ??
That would be against all that Christ has taught…
Risking being a little “flipant”, I can only say,that if this is to be the case, then I expect very many of us,on this forum,will have ample time to ask Jack PERSONALY what his last thoughts were before he left this world…for,in light of the views posted here,I see very little hope for mankind to ever reach Heaven.,
We will prob. ALL end up in the place which you call Hell.I call it the " everlasting grave"
From dust we come,to dust we shall return,untill the day of Judgement…
Then and only then,we will be called to answer for our sins.To presume to know otherwise is disrespectful towards the the word of God… IMHO
God have mercy on us ALL…
That is understandable… but I think we miss the point here…
Jack commited (according to the “rules”) a fatal unforgivable sin…
The rules are NOT made by “man” but by God . We can speculate from now untill eternity,the last word is by God.
If ,we are to believe that God is a loving God,full of mercy and forgivness we can of course come to the conclusion,that God will be able to look into his heart,see the “sin” for what it was…A lapse on Jack’s part? We read,Jack himself was concernd about missing Mass,thought he could do some kind of penance,at a later date…sadly there was no time…
Do we really believe that,the God,to whom we all pray to for forgivness (for our own sins), would be so “unjust”/unforgiving, as to condemmn Jack(whom we are told,has in the past visited Mass regularily),to everlasting DEATH… ??
That would be against all that Christ has taught…
Risking being a little “flipant”, I can only say,that if this is to be the case, then I expect very many of us,on this forum,will have ample time to ask Jack PERSONALY what his last thoughts were before he left this world…for,in light of the views posted here,I see very little hope for mankind to ever reach Heaven.,
We will prob. ALL end up in the place which you call Hell.I call it the " everlasting grave"
From dust we come,to dust we shall return,untill the day of Judgement…
Then and only then,we will be called to answer for our sins.To presume to know otherwise is disrespectful towards the the word of God… IMHO
God have mercy on us ALL…
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Spirithound
Guest
Friend, if it was “just a lapse”, it would not be a mortal sin.
Instead of “missing Mass”, why don’t we substitute pornography? or pre-/extra-marital sex? Murder? Do you still feel the same?
God’s ways are not our ways. In the afterlife, nobody will say that their fate is unfair.
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DanteAlighieri
Guest
With respect, I believe that you are missing the point, my friend. As I said in an earlier post:
The point is not whether it is “fair” for a guy who commits one little mortal sin to be punished for it – it’s that ALL sin is sin against God, and SHOULD be mortal. The reason it isn’t all mortal is that God gave Himself as a sacrifice to pay the penalty for our sin, and He gave us the Sacraments to bolster our wills against temptation. He also gave us a Church that can lead us to Him. If we conform our wills to His, it gets easier and easier to avoid mortal sin – so much so that “Jack” is not likely to commit “just one little mortal sin” because he really wants to play golf.
Finally (and then I think I’m done with this thread, which appears to be going in circles), Jack did not, as you say, commit one unforgiveable sin; he committed a mortal sin. He can be forgiven, but it will ordinarily require the Sacrament of Reconciliation. What makes it worse is that he KNOWS this (otherwise it wouldn’t be mortal)…he KNOWS it is a mortal sin to skip Mass deliberately, and yet he DOES IT ANYWAY. That is a deliberate turning away from God; deprioritizing Him to whatever level lies beneath Jack’s love of golf and steak.
How, pray tell, could Jack do that and expect a different fate?
Peace,
Dante
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DanteAlighieri
Guest
It is God’s grace that enables us even to be polite to one another. We need His grace to overcome our fallen nature; original sin did THAT much damage to us.
The special graces we receive from the Sacraments, as Spirithound pointed out, bolster our wills against temptation. We live in a constant struggle to conform our wills to that of God. It is an arduous task for some, and the grace of God is what makes it happen – IF we cooperate with it.
In other words, grace will not transform someone who does not want to be transformed. God does not force Himself into our hearts; He respects our free will. He does everything He can to speak to us and lead us to the path of good without stepping on the free will he generously bestowed on us. Thus, someone who chooses not to listen or not to obey is rejecting that grace.
I do understand your difficulty. You are trying to reconcile the concept of a just, loving God with the concept of hell. It’s hard, I know. But God made it possible for us to enter heaven at all; we should all be damned just by original sin – let alone all the other evil we have wrought. Isn’t it fair for us to accept His terms, given that we shouldn’t have an option at all?
Peace,
Dante
J
JRKH
Guest
Just as a point of clarification, I read no such concern in the original scenerio. No intention to confess or do penence at a later date. Such a notion could indeed make some difference. Of course, If Jack had such an intention, he could have said an act of contrition, which you said he did not do.
This is the thing that I have been discussing with Strawberry, We could only respond to what you had proposed in your scenerio.
If, at the point of death, Jack asks for forgiveness, which this person would likely do, and reaches out for God’s mercy then God will, in all likelyhood, forgive him and he will land in purgatory.
Well Jesus also said tha the door is narrow and that few find it. while the door to hell is wide and many go that way. Thus it is that we need to be constantly on our guard lest we loose our way in our journey to God.
Please do not assume that we are being presumptuous here. It is not our intent. As others have said, generally no one can know the fate of anothers soul. We could only respond to your scenerio besed on, 1) the factors presented, and 2) Church teachings.
As I told strawberry, if a more detailed scenerio is proposed then we could comment on that seperately.
Peace
James
J
JRKH
Guest
As others have said, Grace does not overcome our free will, but will bolster our wills if we keep them turned toward God.
Sacraments and Graces are like food for the soul, not merit. Look at it this way. You go and eat on a regular basis. Such food bolsters your body and allows you to function. If you stop eating it won’t matter that you ate regularly for 30 years, you will still weaken and die unless you eat again. It is very meritorius that you eat regularly and healthily, but it gains you nothing, no lasting merit, if you decide to stop eating.
Yes I do understand how hard it can be to reconcile. Do you understand that part of the reason for your difficulty is your “world view”?
So long as you maintain the view that God either does not exist or, if He does, must conform to your conception of Him, you will not be able to properly understand these things.
Peae
James
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StrawberryJam
Guest
James, you told me this:
So long as you maintain the view that God either does not exist or, if He does, must conform to your conception of Him, you will not be able to properly understand these things.
James, I am afraid you may not understand what my conception of your God would be.
I can only go on what you christians tell me his attributes actually are. I compare those with narrative, etc. And, then I attempt to reconcile the claims and descriptives with senarios like this one. Often, it does not add up.
So long as you maintain the view that God either does not exist or, if He does, must conform to your conception of Him, you will not be able to properly understand these things.
James, I am afraid you may not understand what my conception of your God would be.
I can only go on what you christians tell me his attributes actually are. I compare those with narrative, etc. And, then I attempt to reconcile the claims and descriptives with senarios like this one. Often, it does not add up.
J
JRKH
Guest
I can certainly see where this would be confusing. The Problem as I see it that you are taking two partial views and trying to reconcile them while remaining outside the realm yourself.James, you told me this:
So long as you maintain the view that God either does not exist or, if He does, must conform to your conception of Him, you will not be able to properly understand these things.
James, I am afraid you may not understand what my conception of your God would be.
I can only go on what you christians tell me his attributes actually are. I compare those with narrative, etc. And, then I attempt to reconcile the claims and descriptives with senarios like this one. Often, it does not add up.
God is so vast and yet simple that He cannot be adequately explained in human language, only experienced and accepted. Whether looking at personal witness or the written narrative of the Bible, you are receiving only a limited description based on the time place and limited intellect of the writers/speakers and their listners/readers.
As a rough example, take our physical world and the science that we use to explain/understand it. How much more difficult would it be to understand things if you are not a part of the system. Gravity for instance is VERY hard to explain and actually is not fully understood, yet we understand it much better because were daily effectd by it. So partial or incomplete explanations make more sense because of our personal acceptance of Gravity as a fact, and our complete participation in it.
Another example might be piloting an Airplane. You can read books on flying. You can watch videos on flying. You can even go to ground school for flying. However you will never learn to fly until you commit to the fact that flying exists, is possible, and then choose to get into an airplane and participate in it by learning to fly.
Just as a point of calification, do you accept a supreme being of some sort?
Peace
James
S
StrawberryJam
Guest
Hello again James,
Not wanting to sound brusk, but are you trying to use the “special knowledge” argument? That one can not learn things about christianity without being a christian? I’m not sure if that was your intention or not so I wanted to ask.
You asked,
Just as a point of calification, do you accept a supreme being of some sort?
My answer would be that the universe seems to be acting just the way it would without any perceptible Christian God running it all. Since I can not know with absolute certainty that the Christian God does not exist, I must leave that option open as a possibility, although a remote one.
My interest in the topic started with a few things that gave me some reasons to give a close inspection of the Christian faith, and now I am at the point of wanting to make sure I have truly “knocked” as your narrative promises, if one truly does knock the “door” will be opened to that one. I’m doing a lot of knocking in terms of Mass attendance, bible reading/study of commentary, Studying your faith tenents, and other things I enjoy emmensly like christian art/iconography, architecture, the catacombs and of course the ancient music (gregorian chant) to really immerse myself in the entire picture or what your world view is. Noting has led to me desireing to be baptised, or anything else so far.
J
JRKH
Guest
I dunno -
I’m too ignorant of deep subjects like philosophy and such to know if I am using a “special knowledge” argument or not.
I would certainly not say that a person cannot learn things about Christianity without being Christian. I would proably say that a person cannot learn everything about Christianity without being Christian.
Thanks for the clarification. It helps a lot.
At this point I can only suggest that you keep lurking, keep asking questions and we’ll keep praying for you.
Peace
James
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knightbird111
Guest
Remember it is salvation of the “soul”
The second death is where the “soul” is judged by Jesus.
Technically 1 mortal sin causes the holy spirit to leave. If a person dies and the holy spirit is not present then I guess at the judgement “second death” that soul ends up in hell.
The whole thing to me seems quite unfair but understand
What defines a sinner? a person who commits a single mortal sin, does not repent, and continues the act.
Few will go into Heaven because the strictness and discipline involved is extreme.
But I could be completely wrong, maybe God is not such a strict judge but according to the Bible, according to Christian teachings…this is the reality, like it or not.
So the answer to your question is YES. 1 mortal sin unrepented, you burn with Satan.
If you masturbate 1 time or murder 1 time and do not repent, you will be dancing with the devil in a circle of fire boy.
The second death is where the “soul” is judged by Jesus.
Technically 1 mortal sin causes the holy spirit to leave. If a person dies and the holy spirit is not present then I guess at the judgement “second death” that soul ends up in hell.
The whole thing to me seems quite unfair but understand
- God hates sinners
- 1 sin is all that it took for Adam and Eve to die spiritually.
What defines a sinner? a person who commits a single mortal sin, does not repent, and continues the act.
Few will go into Heaven because the strictness and discipline involved is extreme.
But I could be completely wrong, maybe God is not such a strict judge but according to the Bible, according to Christian teachings…this is the reality, like it or not.
So the answer to your question is YES. 1 mortal sin unrepented, you burn with Satan.
If you masturbate 1 time or murder 1 time and do not repent, you will be dancing with the devil in a circle of fire boy.
F
fred_conty
Guest
If a candle is burning brightly, how many times does the wind have to blow to put the candle out?
Christ, in a parable, said that there were a number of virgins waiting at the door for the groom to show up. They were all carrying burning lamps. But some of the lamps went out. So those whose lamps went out went to buy more oil for their lamps. But meanwhile, the groom showed up, and they went in, and the groom shut the door. Then those who bought more oil showed up and wanted in. But the groom wouldn’t open door.
This story reminds us to keep our lamp burning and ready. And what is this burning lamp? The life of God within us, sanctifying grace. This life of God, the light of Jesus, goes out with one mortal sin, it doesn’t require more than one. And if the groom calls when we are not ready, we miss entering heaven. Therefore we must always keep our lamp burning and be ready.
Just some thoughts.
Christ, in a parable, said that there were a number of virgins waiting at the door for the groom to show up. They were all carrying burning lamps. But some of the lamps went out. So those whose lamps went out went to buy more oil for their lamps. But meanwhile, the groom showed up, and they went in, and the groom shut the door. Then those who bought more oil showed up and wanted in. But the groom wouldn’t open door.
This story reminds us to keep our lamp burning and ready. And what is this burning lamp? The life of God within us, sanctifying grace. This life of God, the light of Jesus, goes out with one mortal sin, it doesn’t require more than one. And if the groom calls when we are not ready, we miss entering heaven. Therefore we must always keep our lamp burning and be ready.
Just some thoughts.
F
fix
Guest
- Step off a tall building, just once, and you die. Is that fair?
- Why is the standard always so low? I mean do we follow a mafia hit man or Jesus? If our standard is a mafia hit man, then yes one sin is no big deal. But, that is not how we should live, right?
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