There is no probability involved in getting to heaven. The cause of getting to heaven is a deliberate act of the will to be holy. It is also the deliberate act of the will to repent when ones deliberately choose to be not holy. The math shown above is irrelevant. Getting to heaven is not a probability problem, it is an humility and obedience problem.I think the biggest problem with the doctrine of hell is that we literally have no idea what our chances are.
The Church refuses to speculate how many may be in hell, despite the reality that a headcount for the number in hell must exist according to Church doctrine that we are judged at the moment of our death.
The Church I believe, does declare that those people it calls saints to have successfully avoided hell and made to heaven. Let’s say the Church has declared 12,000 saints.
If we take the current world population of 7 billion, and let’s say that all of the Church’s 12,000 saints were from this current generation, although in reality the number of humans to have ever lived is closer to 100 billion,
12,000 / 7 billion = .00017 percent.
So the odds the the Church declare with certainty the a given person is in heaven is way less than one percent.
Beyond this, the Church does not speculate, and anything is possible.
All may be in heaven, or all the remaining may go to hell.
We see constantly on these forums people questioning weather or not they have committed mortal sin.
While devout Catholics may feel comfortable in their chances, many of the saints have questioned there salvation down to the end of their lives.
I think its fair to say that many if not most approach death with uncertainty, praying and hoping for heaven if it exists, but ultimately “finding out” if they loved God or not when the veil is pulled back, after they have already died, and it is too late to reverse course.
I find this system extremely unfair. With the stakes as high as an eternity of unending torture that will never end, we ought to know with certainty if we are in the clear before its too late.
As an Individual you make a choice For or against God, so for every individual maybe there is no probability involved whatsoever.There is no probability involved in getting to heaven. The cause of getting to heaven is a deliberate act of the will to be holy. It is also the deliberate act of the will to repent when ones deliberately choose to be not holy. The math shown above is irrelevant. Getting to heaven is not a probability problem, it is an humility and obedience problem.
Well, you must not familar be with Church teaching. If one has committed ones will to follow in Jesus’ foot steps, and is following Church teaching as a guide to loving God and neighbor, we can have a reasonable assurance that we will enjoy eternal happiness with God. Your claim of unfairness is based on a strawman.As an Individual you make a choice For or against God, so for every individual maybe there is no probability involved whatsoever.
However,
This in no way changes the fact that there is a final count of people in heaven and people in hell. This final count is a number, a mathematical reality that will not go away. A number that defines to the very core what it means to be a member of the human species.
A number which will declare for all eternity how successful the human race was as a whole of loving God, or not loving him.
This number, in every way represents also a probability, or a difficulty quotient, of how likely it is that any given soul, taken at random will make heaven.
My point is since we have no idea what this number is, it seems foolish to me to try to live my life as If I did know.
Moreover, the fact that God doesn’t let us know for sure how we did until we are already in the fire, is completely unfair.
No probability involved?There is no probability involved in getting to heaven. The cause of getting to heaven is a deliberate act of the will to be holy. It is also the deliberate act of the will to repent when ones deliberately choose to be not holy. The math shown above is irrelevant. Getting to heaven is not a probability problem, it is an humility and obedience problem.
What sacred life has no ability to make choices?No probability involved?
Let’s assume a ton of things first, and go from there.
You state that the cause of getting to heaven is a deliberate act of the will.
You must ammend that statement to reflect all of the sacred life that has no ability to make choices, and I know your Church does. Why do I have to remind you of this?
No probablility involved?
No one can claim this. ’
In fact, your whole post simply boils down to one must be holy and humble and obey at every moment of their breath, and never even know if they ever are or can be,
Are you saying that sacred life must make choices or it is not sacred anymore? There must be something that considers those born and who are unable to make choices to be in your limbo at the very least. As so many mothers have been told after miscarriage.What sacred life has no ability to make choices?
This post does not remind me of anything you think it should.
I will repeat. There is no probability involved. One does not accidently go to hell.
The unborn have the ability to make choice, eventhough they are not developed enough to exercise that ability. The ability of choice is part of our human nature, the nature we receive at conception.Are you saying that sacred life must make choices or it is not sacred anymore? There must be something that considers those born and who are unable to make choices to be in your limbo at the very least. As so many mothers have been told after miscarriage.
Support your position that the unborn have the ability to make choice.The unborn have the ability to make choice, eventhough they are not developed enough to exercise that ability. The ability of choice is part of our human nature, the nature we receive at conception.
How does what so many were told have any bearing? Were they told correctly?
I did support it.Support your position that the unborn have the ability to make choice.
Then explain why a child must wait before receiving the Eucharist?
are atheist friends lied. like the whole noble savage thing. the guy who came up with that had several kids and never raised any of them.Let me turn this around for you. Tell me, is Jack, or anybody else who ‘lives a good life’. . .entitled to heaven?
Has Jack ‘earned’ heaven by not being a ‘bad’ guy?
IOW–do a few ‘good deeds’ and managing not to do anything ‘grave’ mean that said person gets to go to heaven for all eternity? Sure seems like a huge reward for basically doing what our atheist friends argue people will ‘naturally’ tend to do. . .
the trouble here is are good US Bishops have allowed catechises to drop by the way side. Ya that was there job and that argument is another thread. The point is most people don’t know missing mass is a mortal sin. I have heard many times “God won’t send you to hell for missing just one” the answer of course is “God will not be mocked, He just might”Can a person who turns down a chance to go to Mass, which is in its essense a foretaste of Heaven, hope to be ready for the real thing? The thing about mortal sins is, if you commit them, you are not spiritually ready for Heaven or even purgatory. Hell is the natural destination of a person who knowingly and definitively goes against God’s will. There’s nothing God can do to make us repent- a person who commits a mortal sin does not provoke God into forcing them away, but instead pushes God away.
I love that only you forgot the part where we are missing half the equation maybe more.No one on earth can tell you if anyone will go to heaven or hell, and God is completely just. It’s not so cut and dry as a+b=c. its more like
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/equations/GoldbachConjecture/NumberedEquation2.gif
Or for that matter, limp handshakes and stony stares from cold, cold parishioners.Not to mention it may include a never-ending collection…LOL
I’d say no to Hell, definitely yes to purgatory. Sounds like he just had a moment of weakness… not some sort of definite rejection of God.Ok, so I already know that grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent are the three conditions for sin to be mortal. But the real problem I have is the teaching that just one of these will send you to hell for all eternity I mean, wow, eternity is a long time!
Example: one Sunday, Jack, who goes to Church every Sunday, gets invited to play golf instead. He figures, ah, what the heck, I’ll just play and then go to Mass later in the evening. Well, he has a good time with his buddies, and they invite him for dinner after playing all day long. Jack selfishly decides to take them up on the offer (they are great cooks!) and skips the evening Mass too. “Mass just started,” he thinks to himself as he gets into the car to get to their house. He feels guilty…he knows that skipping Mass is a mortal sin, but he selfishly presses on–but does not explicitly ask God for forgiveness.
On the way to dinner, he gets hit by a car. Bam! He’s gone. Instantly. No time for an act of contrition.
Does he go to hell for ever and ever and ever and ever? I mean, he knew that it’s a mortal sin, skipping is grave matter, and he acted freely.
Purgatory is where souls go to be cleansed of their sins before they enter heaven.How did this whole Purgatory a.k.a ‘half-way house’ between heaven and hell idea come about ?
I do not see it anywhere in the Bible.