One proof of the resurrection?

[Marybeloved]

This has always struck me as one of the weakest “proofs” for the resurrection. The followers of Jim Jones and David Koresh died for their (wrong) beliefs as well.

Comparing it with the Jim Jones’s and koresh’s misses the point of why it’s proof.

Martyrdom at the very least, is proof of the personal beliefs and convictions of those who die. Martyrdoms are always proof of the conviction of the martyrs- that they absolutely believe in the truth of the claims for which they die.

It’s absurd to say,for example, that Koresh’s followers, or Mohammed’s or Jone’s or those of the Christian Apostles (Early Christians) did NOT absolutely believe in the claims of these men- That they were absolutely true. You can find plenty of evidence of many martyrs in History who died for what they believed was truth- You’ll find NONE of any single person in History who EVER willingly died for a lie- NO person ever died for what they knew to be false. NONE.

You can claim that they were deluded- But you cannot reasonably claim that Martyrs lied or gave their lives willingly for a lie.

The reason why this is a proof of Christianity with regards to the Apostles, but not proof of the claims of Jones, or Mohammed and the likes is simply because these guys (The Apostles) were not only believers in the claims that Jesus made to them, but they were themselves direct, first-hand witnesses of the claims of Christianity, like the Resurrection and Christ’s miracles and claims. Koresh’s followers and Mohammed’s simply believed in what their founders told them- In other words, they believe Mohamed and Jones and koresh and Joseph Smith. The Apostles go further than simply believe Christ- They themselves claim to have seen the resurrected Christ, conversed with him, ate with him! If they suffer horrible deaths and tortures rather than renounce this claim, this is very relevant!

Think about this- Just what in the World would they have had to gain? This person they followed and believed in for three years, had just been defeated- in the most complete way that a defeat could have been achieved. He had been tried, tortured before their eyes and then killed with the most shameful execution possible before his own people. He had been rejected and renounced as a fake, deserted. So his story is done, he’s buried. Then his followers make up a false story about his resurrection…For what? These men lost EVERYTHING for their association with Jesus. They were rejected by their own people as Blasphemers and Heretics, they were constantly hiding in fear of their lives, always dealing with persecution, then they were marked as the enemies of mighty Rome and finally died horribly. They gained no money, no glory- Only difficulty upon difficulty that followed them to their graves.

Moreover they were JEWS! Strict monotheists very much like the present day Saudi Arabia- (Hence why Jesus was killed so badly, he committed the worst sin in the eyes of a Jew back then). They knew that false claims to divinity was the absolute worst thing a person could do. Not only that, the man has just proven his claims totally false by being crucified and dying! Why would that religion go on any day after the burial of Christ? It would have been the easiest, most reasonable,most natural thing for the movement to die then and there, (Many false messiahs and their movements ended the same way those days), easiest for the Apostles to go on in their normal Jewish lives after this, and avoid all trouble with their own people, their leaders and the Romans. Then they just decide to make up a fresh lie and die for it? No money or worldly prestige followed Christianity anywhere in those days.

St. Paul was a top student of the Law, a prestigious Jew and Christian hater- What could persuade him to leave everything good and embrace poverty, ridicule, constant travel and constant persecution, and finally death for a blasphemous claim he believed was false? (Remember he himself claimed to have met the resurrected Christ) What for? That is just unbelievable. I always like to compare it to a top student in Alazhar University in Egypt who has studied under the Top Islamic scholar in the World in Saudi Arabia and is involved with the suppression of a blasphemous heresy- Suddenly He claims out of nowhere that he’s met Jesus and that Christian claims are actually true!, Just like that, he risks not just his reputation,prestige and standing with his own family and people, and but he embraces the likely sentence of death, too? And never even gaining any wealth or worldly prestige for it at all?- What could possibly motivate any one to do this?

No proof is 100% but proof for Christian is beyond any other group’s claims IMO.

 

[danserr]

so it seems there’s no proof of them being martyred?

another thread says it’s in the apocryphal books.

is that it?

Like I said in post 7, there is significant evidence that many early Christians died for their beliefs.

Like you said, this shows that they must have been sincere, and it is hard to imagine that they could have mistaken.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Comparing it with the Jim Jones’s and koresh’s misses the point of why it’s proof.

Martyrdom at the very least, is proof of the personal beliefs and convictions of those who die. Martyrdoms are always proof of the conviction of the martyrs- that they absolutely believe in the truth of the claims for which they die.

It’s absurd to say,for example, that Koresh’s followers, or Mohammed’s or Jone’s or those of the Christian Apostles (Early Christians) did NOT absolutely believe in the claims of these men- That they were absolutely true. You can find plenty of evidence of many martyrs in History who died for what they believed was truth- You’ll find NONE of any single person in History who EVER willingly died for a lie- NO person ever died for what they knew to be false. NONE.

You can claim that they were deluded- But you cannot reasonably claim that Martyrs lied or gave their lives willingly for a lie.

The reason why this is a proof of Christianity with regards to the Apostles, but not proof of the claims of Jones, or Mohammed and the likes is simply because these guys (The Apostles) were not only believers in the claims that Jesus made to them, but they were themselves direct, first-hand witnesses of the claims of Christianity, like the Resurrection and Christ’s miracles and claims. Koresh’s followers and Mohammed’s simply believed in what their founders told them- In other words, they believe Mohamed and Jones and koresh and Joseph Smith. The Apostles go further than simply believe Christ- They themselves claim to have seen the resurrected Christ, conversed with him, ate with him! If they suffer horrible deaths and tortures rather than renounce this claim, this is very relevant!

Think about this- Just what in the World would they have had to gain? This person they followed and believed in for three years, had just been defeated- in the most complete way that a defeat could have been achieved. He had been tried, tortured before their eyes and then killed with the most shameful execution possible before his own people. He had been rejected and renounced as a fake, deserted. So his story is done, he’s buried. Then his followers make up a false story about his resurrection…For what? These men lost EVERYTHING for their association with Jesus. They were rejected by their own people as Blasphemers and Heretics, they were constantly hiding in fear of their lives, always dealing with persecution, then they were marked as the enemies of mighty Rome and finally died horribly. They gained no money, no glory- Only difficulty upon difficulty that followed them to their graves.

Moreover they were JEWS! Strict monotheists very much like the present day Saudi Arabia- (Hence why Jesus was killed so badly, he committed the worst sin in the eyes of a Jew back then). They knew that false claims to divinity was the absolute worst thing a person could do. Not only that, the man has just proven his claims totally false by being crucified and dying! Why would that religion go on any day after the burial of Christ? It would have been the easiest, most reasonable,most natural thing for the movement to die then and there, (Many false messiahs and their movements ended the same way those days), easiest for the Apostles to go on in their normal Jewish lives after this, and avoid all trouble with their own people, their leaders and the Romans. Then they just decide to make up a fresh lie and die for it? No money or worldly prestige followed Christianity anywhere in those days.

St. Paul was a top student of the Law, a prestigious Jew and Christian hater- What could persuade him to leave everything good and embrace poverty, ridicule, constant travel and constant persecution, and finally death for a blasphemous claim he believed was false? (Remember he himself claimed to have met the resurrected Christ) What for? That is just unbelievable. I always like to compare it to a top student in Alazhar University in Egypt who has studied under the Top Islamic scholar in the World in Saudi Arabia and is involved with the suppression of a blasphemous heresy- Suddenly He claims out of nowhere that he’s met Jesus and that Christian claims are actually true!, Just like that, he risks not just his reputation,prestige and standing with his own family and people, and but he embraces the likely sentence of death, too? And never even gaining any wealth or worldly prestige for it at all?- What could possibly motivate any one to do this?

No proof is 100% but proof for Christian is beyond any other group’s claims IMO.

The religious skeptic would claim, as you point out, that Jesus’ disciples were delusional in their thinking that Jesus rose from the dead. Simply asserting that people strongly believe something doesn’t make that “something” necessarily true. People are wrong about things all the time. And people throughout history have given their lives for unworthy causes that they believed in.

So my point about Jim Jones and David Koresh is that their followers were severely deluded and basically had given up everything to follow their leaders, which parallels the situation of the disciples, as you observe. They believed what their leaders told them. Their leaders were wrong. Sometimes it doesn’t take much for people in desperate situations (as you rightly point out was the case with Jesus’ disciples) to do desperate things.

All I’m saying is that the martyrdom of the disciples, to the extent it occurred, isn’t a very good argument for Christianity because it’s too easy for skeptics to cite examples of other people who considered themselves martyrs for causes that were fallacious.

 

[Marybeloved]

The religious skeptic would claim, as you point out, that Jesus’ disciples were delusional in their thinking that Jesus rose from the dead. Simply asserting that people strongly believe something doesn’t make that “something” necessarily true. People are wrong about things all the time. And people throughout history have given their lives for unworthy causes that they believed in.

So my point about Jim Jones and David Koresh is that their followers were severely deluded and basically had given up everything to follow their leaders, which parallels the situation of the disciples, as you observe. They believed what their leaders told them. Their leaders were wrong. Sometimes it doesn’t take much for people in desperate situations (as you rightly point out was the case with Jesus’ disciples) to do desperate things.

All I’m saying is that the martyrdom of the disciples, to the extent it occurred, isn’t a very good argument for Christianity because it’s too easy for skeptics to cite examples of other people who considered themselves martyrs for causes that were fallacious.

The followers of those men have only hearsay or third party evidence to offer in regards to the truths of the claims of their founder- They were told things, they believed. Their testimony is solid if you are asking: What did you see/hear Koresh say or teach or do? The Apostles’ testimony is not at all heresay. They say that they saw, heard, certain extraordinary things themselves and then died for that belief. Even in our Courts, the testimony of a dying man has much weight due to the human repulsion to death and suffering. Comparing the two is missing the point. The followers of Jim Jones are like the Christians after the Apostles and the first generation of Christians, who never saw the Resurrection or miracles themselves but simply believed what the Apostles told them. They died, like Koresh’s followers died- But it is not to these non-witnessing Christian Martyrs that we are looking to for evidence, is it?

It is to the persons who say “WE saw this man do and say certain incredible things, he was tried and died a horrible earth, we buried him and then we saw him fully alive after his death with all his execution marks still on him and he spoke to us, then we saw him rise and disappear to heaven”. They are not saying- He said this, and we believe it’s true- No! They are testifying to their own witness of the events. We are talking about people dying saying that they themselves saw certain things- not just a matter of believed certain things about their founder.

Those who say they were delusional would have to show us what kind of delusion possessed these ordinary Jews to all see the same insane thing (including an enemy like Paul) and to die for it and to believe in doctrines that were contradictory to their faith- Not even one of them had a change of mind. This was not just two or three people.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

The followers of those men have only hearsay or third party evidence to offer in regards to the truths of the claims of their founder- They were told things, they believed. Their testimony is solid if you are asking: What did you see/hear Koresh say or teach or do? The Apostles’ testimony is not at all heresay. They say that they saw, heard, certain extraordinary things themselves and then died for that belief. Even in our Courts, the testimony of a dying man has much weight due to the human repulsion to death and suffering. Comparing the two is missing the point. The followers of Jim Jones are like the Christians after the Apostles and the first generation of Christians, who never saw the Resurrection or miracles themselves but simply believed what the Apostles told them. They died, like Koresh’s followers died- But it is not to these non-witnessing Christian Martyrs that we are looking to for evidence, is it?

It is to the persons who say "WE saw this man do and say certain incredible things, he was tried and died a horrible earth, we buried him and then we saw him fully alive after his death with all his execution marks still on him and he spoke to us, then we saw him rise and disappear to heaven". They are not saying- He said this, and we believe it’s true- No! They are testifying to their own witness of the events. We are talking about people dying saying that they themselves saw certain things- not just a matter of believed certain things about their founder.

Those who say they were delusional would have to show us what kind of delusion possessed these ordinary Jews to all see the same insane thing (including an enemy like Paul) and to die for it and to believe in doctrines that were contradictory to their faith- Not even one of them had a change of mind. This was not just two or three people.

I don’t see how Jim Jones’s followers (at least all of them at any rate) could be considered as having relied on hearsay, or could be compared in any way to the first generation of Christians after the apostles. Some who died with Jones claimed that he had healed them personally from diseases like cancer and emphysema. His followers knew him personally and directly. They saw and experienced his “miracles.” They believed he was the incarnation of Jesus and they died with him based on that belief.

But they were wrong.

 

[mercytruth]

Eusebius of the early fourth century read these documents that purportedly date to the time of Jesus Christ and his disciples:

**
5. And all that our Saviour had promised received through him its fulfillment. You have written evidence of these things taken from the archives of Edessa, which was at that time a royal city. For in the public registers there, which contain accounts of ancient times and the acts of Abgarus, these things have been found preserved down to the present time. But there is no better way than to hear the epistles themselves which we have taken from the archives and have literally translated from the Syriac language in the following manner.

Copy of an epistle written by Abgarus the ruler to Jesus, and sent to him at Jerusalem by Ananias the swift courier.
6. Abgarus, ruler of Edessa, to Jesus the excellent Saviour who has appeared in the country of Jerusalem, greeting. I have heard the reports of you and of your cures as performed by you without medicines or herbs. For it is said that you make the blind to see and the lame to walk, that you cleanse lepers and cast out impure spirits and demons, and that you heal those afflicted with lingering disease, and raise the dead.

1. And having heard all these things concerning you, I have concluded that one of two things must be true: either you are God, and having come down from heaven you do these things, or else you, who does these things, are the Son of God.
2. I have therefore written to you to ask you if you would take the trouble to come to me and heal the disease which I have. For I have heard that the Jews are murmuring against you and are plotting to injure you. But I have a very small yet noble city which is great enough for us both.

The answer of Jesus to the ruler Abgarus by the courier Ananias.
9. “Blessed are you who hast believed in me without having seen me. For it is written concerning me, that they who have seen me will not believe in me, and that they who have not seen me will believe and be saved. But in regard to what you have written me, that I should come to you, it is necessary for me to fulfill all things here for which I have been sent, and after I have fulfilled them thus to be taken up again to him that sent me. But after I have been taken up I will send to you one of my disciples, that he may heal your disease and give life to you and yours.”Further accounts

1. To these epistles there was added the following account in the Syriac language. After the ascension of Jesus, Judas, who was also called Thomas, sent to him Thaddeus, an apostle, one of the Seventy. When he had come he lodged with Tobias, the son of Tobias. When the report of him got abroad, it was told Abgarus that an apostle of Jesus had come, as he had written him.
2. Thaddeus began then in the power of God to heal every disease and infirmity, insomuch that all wondered. And when Abgarus heard of the great and wonderful things which he did and of the cures which he performed, he began to suspect that he was the one of whom Jesus had written him, saying, ‘After I have been taken up I will send to you one of my disciples who will heal you.’
3. Therefore, summoning Tobias, with whom Thaddeus lodged, he said, I have heard that a certain man of power has come and is lodging in your house. Bring him to me. And Tobias coming to Thaddeus said to him, The ruler Abgarus summoned me and told me to bring you to him that you might heal him. And Thaddeus said, I will go, for I have been sent to him with power.
4. Tobias therefore arose early on the following day, and taking Thaddeus came to Abgarus. And when he came, the nobles were present and stood about Abgarus. And immediately upon his entrance a great vision appeared to Abgarus in the countenance of the apostle Thaddeus. When Abgarus saw it he prostrated himself before Thaddeus, while all those who stood about were astonished; for they did not see the vision, which appeared to Abgarus alone.
5. He then asked Thaddeus if he were in truth a disciple of Jesus the Son of God, who had said to him, ‘I will send you one of my disciples, who shall heal you and give you life.’ And Thaddeus said, Because you have mightily believed in him that sent me, therefore have I been sent unto you. And still further, if you believe in him, the petitions of your heart shall be granted you as you believe.
6. And Abgarus said to him, So much have I believed in him that I wished to take an army and destroy those Jews who crucified him, had I not been deterred from it by reason of the dominion of the Romans. And Thaddeus said, Our Lord has fulfilled the will of his Father, and having fulfilled it has been taken up to his Father. And Abgarus said to him, I too have believed in him and in his Father.
7. And Thaddeus said to him, Therefore I place my hand upon you in his name. And when he had done it, immediately Abgarus was cured of the disease and of the suffering which he had.**

“This is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it”

newadvent.org/fathers/250101.htm
chapter 13.

 

[Marybeloved]

I don’t see how Jim Jones’s followers (at least all of them at any rate) could be considered as having relied on hearsay, or could be compared in any way to the first generation of Christians after the apostles. Some who died with Jones claimed that he had healed them personally from diseases like cancer and emphysema. His followers knew him personally and directly. They saw and experienced his “miracles.” They believed he was the incarnation of Jesus and they died with him based on that belief.

But they were wrong.

Belief in being healed is no different from what happens even with us ordinary christians. We believe it happened after someone prayed- We can testify directly that "After Jim Jones prayed for me- I found that I was not sick any more"- That would be direct evidence. It would definitely be hearsay to say,“Jim Jones has spoken to God” or “He was told by God to heal me” or “is a Prophet, Has Powers” etc etc. This at best is a conclusion that I draw or an interpretation I give to the fact that a healing took place after Jim Jones prayed- It is NOT direct evidence that Jim Jones spoke to God, is a prophet etc.

Now, the Apostles said that they MET, TOUCHED and CONVERSED with Christ, AFTER his DEATH and BURIAL! How on earth do you not see the difference? It is what they are testifying that they SAW and HEARD (Not the conclusion that they drew from it or the interpretation that they gave it)- This is what makes this so radically different! They have to be lying (to the point of martyrdom and for zero gain ) or be suffering from a truly incredible hallucination given the circumstances, that someone really has to explain to us how to pull off or must just simply be speaking the truth.

We Christians conclude from this that his claims were true- He was God. But we are not talking about the conclusion that the Christians drew from Christ’s acts/resurrection- We are talking about the facts testified to themselves. That days and weeks after this man was executed, people said they saw him alive- Why on Earth would his disciples claim that they saw him alive after he was killed and then go to death for it if they did not see him?