One thing Jw's do not like to discuss

[Marilena]

They wont tell you what happened to Enoch. Remember in the old testament, it states God took Enoch? I asked them one time, do you think God took him to heaven?

They refused to answer it. When asked why, they would only state that God does what He does, and we are not to question what He does.

I said ok, but what do you think happened to Enoch? What does it mean when it states God took him? Does it mean that Enoch was so holy, that God took him to heaven, or does it mean that Enoch died and went to heaven?

I wanted to know what really happened to Enoch, and no one even to this day has answered my question. What do you think happened to Enoch? Are they correct in stating that we should not question what God did when it came to Enoch?

Should one forever not wonder what happened to him?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Enoch’s Death

Thus God translated Enoch, or put him in a trance, somewhat like the trance an apostle of Jesus Christ experienced thousands of years later. (2 Corinthians 12:1-4) What Enoch saw and heard while he was held bound and entranced with that new world vision of Paradise restored, he was not permitted to utter to men. While Enoch was in the trance, “God took him,” that is, God let Enoch’s life expire peaceably. He felt no pangs of death; he did not see or realize he was dying. (The Truth Shall Make You Free; 1943; 2,000,000 ed.; pp. 127)

jude3.net/jwquotes.htm

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

John 3:13…

The Watchtower Society teaches that only 144,000 people will live eternally in heaven while the rest of faithful mankind will only have the prospect of living forever in “Paradise” earth. Believing that this 144,000 heavenly group began at Pentecost (33 AD), Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that “there is nothing in the Scriptures to show that a heavenly hope was held out to God’s servants prior to the coming of Christ Jesus.”1. Thus, they assert that “David, Job and John the Baptizer” as well as “all faithful men and women who died before Jesus died.…will be resurrected to become some of the earthly subjects of God’s kingdom.”2. In support of their belief that none of the Old Testament servants of God will be in heaven, Jehovah’s Witnesses reference John 3:13, Acts 2:34 and Matthew 11:11.

BIBLICAL RESPONSE:

Is it true that “nothing in the Scriptures” indicates that a “heavenly hope” was held out to Old Testament believers? What about 2 Kings 2:11 where “Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven”? Didn’t Elijah reappear on earth along with Moses when Jesus was transfigured at Matthew 17:3?

What about Enoch who “God took” at Genesis 5:24? Scripture tells us at Hebrews 11:5

follow link for full document

witforjesus.org/jehovahs_witness/prooftexts/jw_john3_13.php

 

[Marilena]

Enoch’s Death

jude3.net/jwquotes.htm

Well, I certainly disagree with what the WTB&TS says about it.

 

[Valke2]

They wont tell you what happened to Enoch. Remember in the old testament, it states God took Enoch? I asked them one time, do you think God took him to heaven?

They refused to answer it. When asked why, they would only state that God does what He does, and we are not to question what He does.

I

Here’s some jewish perspectives on Enoch: Targum Pseudo-Jonathan states that Enoch was a pious man, he was taken to heaven, and received the title of Safra rabba (Great scribe). On the other hand there are other places/writings that say he had lapses of rightousness and was taken by a divine plauge. So there you have it.

 

[Marilena]

No, there you do not have it. It does not explain it from a CATHOLIC perspective, and that’s what I REALLY want to know! The Catholic teaching on Enoch, not anything else. When I was a jw, I had asked about Enoch, and refused an answer. Iam only interested in what our church teaches about him.

 

[LilyM]

No, there you do not have it. It does not explain it from a CATHOLIC perspective, and that’s what I REALLY want to know! The Catholic teaching on Enoch, not anything else. When I was a jw, I had asked about Enoch, and refused an answer. Iam only interested in what our church teaches about him.

Our Catholic belief is that Enoch, Elijah and all the righteous who died before the time of Christ went not to heaven, but to a limbo-like place/state commonly referred to as the ‘bosom of Abraham’.

When Christ ‘descended to the dead’ after his own death, as we state in the Creed, it was to free these people and bring them to heaven, which had previously been closed to them.

 

[Marilena]

Our Catholic belief is that Enoch, Elijah and all the righteous who died before the time of Christ went not to heaven, but to a limbo-like place/state commonly referred to as the ‘bosom of Abraham’.

When Christ ‘descended to the dead’ after his own death, as we state in the Creed, it was to free these people and bring them to heaven, which had previously been closed to them.

that answers part of my question… the other part is why did God take him?

 

[Valke2]

No, there you do not have it. It does not explain it from a CATHOLIC perspective, and that’s what I REALLY want to know! The Catholic teaching on Enoch, not anything else. When I was a jw, I had asked about Enoch, and refused an answer. Iam only interested in what our church teaches about him.

Well, then why are you in the “Other Religion” thread if you are looking for a catholic perspective?

 

[Marilena]

READ what I wrote about the JW ( non Catholic religion ) belief in Enoch is. that is a NON Catholic belief. Don’t order me around,
your NOT a mod. Thank you VERY much. If they want to move it,
they will move it. DON’T tell me where to post it.

 

[Marilena]

Daniel Marsh did a nice job posting the information here for us as to what they believe about Enoch. The sad fact is, when I was a jw, a few of them that i had spoken to refused to answer the question.

I was always curious as to why some of them refused to answer a legit question!

Sometimes when you question jw’s about certain things, they will
only give you vague answers at best. The WTB&TS tells them what to say, and they stick by it.

If any of you ever get one of the door knockers at your home this weekend, pose this question to them. Ask them what happened to Enoch according to their belief, and let me know what they said.

If you know what happened to him according to what we know and believe, tell them, and see what they say. Could be that perhaps the answers will be similar, or not. Who knows?

I haven’t had the oppotunity to talk to them yet. but, when I do be assured I will ask them this question, as well as alot of other ones too.

 

[Valke2]

READ what I wrote about the JW ( non Catholic religion ) belief in Enoch is. that is a NON Catholic belief. Don’t order me around,
your NOT a mod. Thank you VERY much. If they want to move it,
they will move it. DON’T tell me where to post it.

Your judicious use of caps aside, I don’t care where you post. But don’t get bent out of shape when you go on the other religion thread and then get responses from other religions.

 

[Marilena]

Your judicious use of caps aside, I don’t care where you post. But don’t get bent out of shape when you go on the other religion thread and then get responses from other religions.

 

[PaulDupre]

From the Catholic Encyclopedia article on the General Judgment (newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm):

1. Return of Enoch and Elijah. The belief that these two men, who have never tasted death, are reserved for the last times to be precursors of the Second Advent was practically unanimous among the Fathers, which belief they base on several texts of Scripture. (Concerning Elijah see Malachi 4:5-6; Sirach 48:10; Matthew 17:11; concerning Enoch see Sirach 44:16)

Apparently, it has always been Catholic belief that Enoch shared the same divine favor as Elijah, that is, he was taken bodily to heaven without ever tasting death.

Hope this helps,
Paul

 

[Marilena]

interesting!

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Henoch (Greek Enoch).

The name of the son of Cain (Genesis 4:17, 18), of a nephew of Abraham (Genesis 25:4), of the first-born of Ruben (Genesis 46:9), and of the son of Jared and the father of Mathusala (Genesis 5:18 sq.). The last-named patriarch is the most illustrious bearer of the name.

At the time of the birth of Mathusala Henoch was sixty-five years of age, “and all the days of Henoch were three hundred and sixty-five years” (Genesis 5:23). Instead of the clause “and he died”, added to the sketches concerning the other patriarchs, the text says of Henoch: “And he walked with God, and was seen no more: because God took him” (Genesis 5:24). The inspired writer of Heb., xi, 5, adds: “By faith Henoch was translated, that he should not see death.” Ecclus., xliv, 16, and xlix, 16, intimates the same truth about the patriarch. The Epistle of St. Jude (14, 15) shows us Henoch in the light of a prophet, announcing the judgement of God upon the ungodly. Some writers have supposed that St. Jude quoted these words from the so-called apocryphal Book of Henoch (See APOCRYPHA); but, since they do not fit into its context (Ethiopic), it is more reasonable to suppose that they were interlopated into the apocryphal book from the text of St. Jude. The Apostle must have borrowed the words from Jewish tradition.

newadvent.org/cathen/07218a.htm

Hebrews 11:5 (King James Version)
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Sirach 44:16 " [ENOCH walked with the LORD and was taken up, that succeeding generations might learn by his example.]"

Sirach 49:14 “Few on earth have been made the equal of ENOCH, for he was taken up bodily.”

 

[M_Oliver]

Our Catholic belief is that Enoch, Elijah and all the righteous who died before the time of Christ went not to heaven, but to a limbo-like place/state commonly referred to as the ‘bosom of Abraham’.

When Christ ‘descended to the dead’ after his own death, as we state in the Creed, it was to free these people and bring them to heaven, which had previously been closed to them.

So how does this explain that Elijah wrote a letter to a king some years later after he was caught up in a whirlwind? God revealed what happened to Enoch when He gave us more detail in Elijah. This is not a great mystery. Neither died physically at the point you are referring to. Nor were they put in some trance. Where the hell did that nonsense come from?

 

[jAlex]

They wont tell you what happened to Enoch. Remember in the old testament, it states God took Enoch? I asked them one time, do you think God took him to heaven?

They refused to answer it. When asked why, they would only state that God does what He does, and we are not to question what He does.

I said ok, but what do you think happened to Enoch? What does it mean when it states God took him? Does it mean that Enoch was so holy, that God took him to heaven, or does it mean that Enoch died and went to heaven?

I wanted to know what really happened to Enoch, and no one even to this day has answered my question. What do you think happened to Enoch? Are they correct in stating that we should not question what God did when it came to Enoch?

Should one forever not wonder what happened to him?

Maybe they won’t tell coz they’re envious? . As far as I remember they hold that the places in Heaven are limited: 144000 tops. Enoch was taken to Heaven - that means only 143999 seats are left and they don’t wanna discourage people.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

So how does this explain that Elijah wrote a letter to a king some years later after he was caught up in a whirlwind? God revealed what happened to Enoch when He gave us more detail in Elijah. This is not a great mystery. Neither died physically at the point you are referring to. Nor were they put in some trance. Where the hell did that nonsense come from?

Um…the Scriptures?

“See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.”

Wisdom of Sirach 29:14:

But upon the earth was no man created like Enoch; for he was taken from the earth.

Wisdom of Sirach 44:16:

Enoch pleased the Lord, and was translated, being an example of repentance to all generations.

 

[LittleDeb]

Maybe they won’t tell coz they’re envious? . As far as I remember they hold that the places in Heaven are limited: 144000 tops. Enoch was taken to Heaven - that means only 143999 seats are left and they don’t wanna discourage people.

That was my first thought too!!

Sorry Marilena I couldn’t resist that little chuckle. I know this thread is serious. It is an interesting question. I find it odd when I ask a basic question of JWs and cannot get a straight answer no matter who I ask. I am going to ask it next time I get a knock at my door. Could it be it just doesn’t matter to them? Though I would think that it should matter if it is asked by any of their members.