Ongoing creation

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Thanks for the replies, but I haven’t quite found what I need. My friend will not find psychological speculations about the creator persuasive.

I’m asking, does anybody know of a logical argument – I know I’ve seen some – that suggests that it is logically impossible for the universe to exist without God acting upon it at every point?
I don’t think that such an argument would be entirely effective in combatting deism, since your friend could just claim that, ok God supports the world, but he doesn’t do anything else to act in it. It would help, but your friend still would have a way of escape. I am stil inclined to think that the best way to defeat deism would be to consider evidence for the Resurrection, which would show certainly that God does act in the world.
 
Al:

What are the physical laws regarding two hundred million starfish eggs? Also, what’s your take on this decline in the expansion of the human population? I haven’t read but two accounts which said nothing about what factors were causative, or suspected.

(I was hoping “mother nature” would at least be attractive, not just some ink markings on paper! :eek: )

God bless,
jd
For the specific human issue I don’t know, but in general biological nature lives by natural selection and competition. It is all a system of balance (ecosystem, anyone?), which explains the general lack of overpopulation by a single species. And physical life is governed by biology and chemistry, which in turn are based on physical laws. Of course, genes and genomes that steer biological processes are a product of billions of years of history as well, but random mutation *) and cumulative natural selection that form the history of genes are also guided by physical principles (natural selection as part of a larger system).

*) including gene duplication and subsequent mutaation in one of the genes, allowing for information increase
 
For the specific human issue I don’t know, but in general biological nature lives by natural selection and competition. It is all a system of balance (ecosystem, anyone?), which explains the general lack of overpopulation by a single species.
Al,

Actually it does not. It only answers the question, “How?” - in an extremely non-specific manner. It does not answer the question, “Why?”, or even the question, “How?” very well. It’s like answering the question, "Why is that apple ‘red’? And answering, “Because it is ripe.” Or, “Because that is what our eyes perceive from the light bouncing back from it.” It’s simply not enough information, unless you meant it to be a shorthand for the fuller explanation. I want the fuller explanation - a deeper explanation. Not the shorthand version. Got an article on this subject?

You’re not a Deist, so you cannot believe that God just sets nature in motion and walks away, can you?

God bless,
jd
 
Al,

Actually it does not. It only answers the question, “How?” - in an extremely non-specific manner. It does not answer the question, “Why?”, or even the question, “How?” very well. It’s like answering the question, "Why is that apple ‘red’? And answering, “Because it is ripe.” Or, “Because that is what our eyes perceive from the light bouncing back from it.” It’s simply not enough information, unless you meant it to be a shorthand for the fuller explanation. I want the fuller explanation - a deeper explanation. Not the shorthand version. Got an article on this subject?
It does answer the How, and the Why is because the laws of nature are the way they are. The deeper Why, I believe, is that the laws of nature are designed by God.
You’re not a Deist, so you cannot believe that God just sets nature in motion and walks away, can you?
God bless,
jd
I do believe that God, with the Big Bang, set nature in motion, yes, letting it unfold according to the laws He created.

He did not walk away though, since He needs to sustain nature in being (see the metaphysics above). Also, He performs miracles from time to time (Resurrection, for example), and He creates an immaterial soul for every human being.

So no, I am not a deist, but I don’t believe in constant divine ‘intervention’ in the physical processes that God created either – sustenance yes, constant intervention, no. I am a scientifically informed theist, and my beliefs are in full accordance with the teachings of the Catholic Church.

I believe that God constantly intervenes in the spiritual realm, but not in the physical realm. What else are laws of nature for?
 
There is nothing mysterious about the causes of evil or the fact that an earthly Utopia is wishful thinking…
Who is talking about an earthly Utopia?
It would be fascinating to read a detailed description of a feasible state of “prefection” on this planet… Free lunches prepared for everyone in advance - with an infinite menu of delicious alternatives! I think we would die of starvation while we try to decide what to choose… 😉
It would be fascinating to read a detailed description of a **feasible **state of “prefected perfection” throughout the entire universe… No collisions?
If you think this has any sort of relevance to anything I said, then I strongly advise you to reread what I actually wrote and then try to actually address it instead of erecting this silly strawman.
Do you regard yourself and other persons as machines? :confused:
Not that this has any sort of relevance to the topic of this thread, but yes, I do regard myself and all other persons as machines. And you know what, if ever it turned out God existed, He would also be a machine. A much more sophisticated one than I am, but still, a machine.
 
There is nothing mysterious about the causes of evil or the fact that an earthly Utopia is wishful thinking…
You are - with your implication that there need not be “massive amounts of evil”…
It would be fascinating to read a detailed description of a feasible state of “prefection” on this planet… Free lunches prepared for everyone in advance - with an infinite menu of delicious alternatives! I think we would die of starvation while we try to decide what to choose…
It would be fascinating to read a detailed description of a feasible state of “prefected perfection” throughout the entire universe… No collisions?
If you think this has any sort of relevance to anything I said, then I strongly advise you to reread what I actually wrote and then try to actually address it instead of erecting this silly strawman.

You wrote: “If creation is as perfect as would be expected from a perfect God, then all God can possibly do is sit back and watch prefection unfold itself.”
Do you regard yourself and other persons as machines?
Not that this has any sort of relevance to the topic of this thread, but yes, I do regard myself and all other persons as machines. And you know what, if ever it turned out God existed, He would also be a machine. A much more sophisticated one than I am, but still, a machine.

That explains your mechanistic view of reality - which is self-destructive because a machine cannot choose what to think or believe: it has its thoughts and beliefs thrust upon it! 🙂
 
You are - with your implication that there need not be “massive amounts of evil”…
So, a world without massive amounts of evil is, in your eyes, the same as an Earthly Utopia?
You wrote: “If creation is as perfect as would be expected from a perfect God, then all God can possibly do is sit back and watch prefection unfold itself.”
Yes, and you obviously do not understand this.
That explains your mechanistic view of reality - which is self-destructive because a machine cannot choose what to think or believe: it has its thoughts and beliefs thrust upon it! 🙂
Well, since you are the expert on what exactly a machine can or cannot do, who am I to argue with you?
 
It does answer the How, and the Why is because the laws of nature are the way they are. The deeper Why, I believe, is that the laws of nature are designed by God.

I do believe that God, with the Big Bang, set nature in motion, yes, letting it unfold according to the laws He created.
Good. How do you, as a scientist, explain the following:

GOD CONTROLS ALL EVENTS, WHETHER GOOD OR BAD

Nothing happens in the universe without God willing and allowing it. This statement must be taken absolutely of everything with the exception of sin. ‘Nothing occurs by chance in the whole course of our lives’ is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church,** ‘and God intervenes everywhere.’**

I am the Lord, He tells us Himself by the mouth of the prophet Isaias, and there is none else. I form light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things. (Is. 45:6-7) - Fr. Jean Baptiste Saint-Jure

God bless and Merry Christmas,
jd
 
So, a world without massive amounts of evil is, in your eyes, the same as an Earthly Utopia?
It’s heading in that direction! The point is that you are implying evil can somehow be eliminated…
You wrote: “If creation is as perfect as would be expected from a perfect God, then all God can possibly do is sit back and watch prefection unfold itself.”
Yes, and you obviously do not understand this.

An argumentum ad hominem! Your statement is also based on the assumption that God **never **intervenes - which requires substantiation.
That explains your mechanistic view of reality - which is self-destructive because a machine cannot choose what to think or believe: it has its thoughts and beliefs thrust upon it!
Well, since you are the expert on what exactly a machine can or cannot do, who am I to argue with you?

Another argumentum ad hominem! It would be more to the point to explain how a machine can be a rational being… Would you rely on a supercomputer to make **all **your decisions for you?
 
Good. How do you, as a scientist, explain the following:

GOD CONTROLS ALL EVENTS, WHETHER GOOD OR BAD
What exactly is meant by: ‘controls’?
Nothing happens in the universe without God willing and allowing it. This statement must be taken absolutely of everything with the exception of sin.
That is correct. Everything falls under divine providence.
‘Nothing occurs by chance in the whole course of our lives’ is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church
That is demonstrably false. St. Thomas Aquinas, one of the greatest Fathers and Doctors of the Church, writes:

“The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1)"

So contingency, i.e. chance – the opposite of necessity, can still fall under divine providence.
** ‘and God intervenes everywhere.’**
This is obviously false. If that were so, then there would be no reliable laws of nature, and you could not even trust entering an airplane to fly you safely to your destination! And when there is an accident, is it caused by God’s ‘intervention’? Obviously not, unless you want to give a sinister dimension to the problem of evil.

God, as lawgiver, creates laws of nature, and lets them work according to their, well, laws.

Show me that constant divine intervention is official doctrine of the Catholic Church. It is not. This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

*301 With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves. He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence:

For you love all things that exist, and detest none of the things that you have made; for you would not have made anything if you had hated it. How would anything have endured, if you had not willed it? Or how would anything not called forth by you have been preserved? You spare all things, for they are yours, O Lord, you who love the living. (Wis 11:24-26).*

In short, God sustains creation, including the laws of nature, and enables it to act, but does not constantly intervene. This is affirmed a few paragraphs further down in the Catechism (emphasis added):

*Providence and secondary causes

306 God is the sovereign master of his plan. But to carry it out he also makes use of his creatures’ co-operation. This use is not a sign of weakness, but rather a token of almighty God’s greatness and goodness. For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus of co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan.*

(Note that ‘creatures’ obviously means here not just human beings who possess free will.)
 
(cont.)

To zoom in on the point with a more concrete example: The Catholic Church affirms that theology does not require interventionist biological Intelligent Design (which is a hypothesis not officially endorsed by the Church), but rather it is the case that even a contingent process like evolution, as described by science, can fall under divine providence. Below is reproduced paragraph 69 from Communion and Stewardship, an official document of the Catholic Church.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html

Please read very cartefully, and try to empty your mind from preconceptions, in order to be able to understand what is actually said here (emphasis in original):
  1. The current scientific debate about the mechanisms at work in evolution requires theological comment insofar as it sometimes implies a misunderstanding of the nature of divine causality. Many neo-Darwinian scientists, as well as some of their critics, have concluded that, if evolution is a radically contingent materialistic process driven by natural selection and random genetic variation, then there can be no place in it for divine providential causality. A growing body of scientific critics of neo-Darwinism point to evidence of design (e.g., biological structures that exhibit specified complexity) that, in their view, cannot be explained in terms of a purely contingent process and that neo-Darwinians have ignored or misinterpreted. The nub of this currently lively disagreement involves scientific observation and generalization concerning whether the available data support inferences of design or chance, and cannot be settled by theology. But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1). In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” (Summa theologiae I, 22, 2).

So now perhaps we are closer to an answer to my above question:

What exactly is meant by: ‘controls’?

Everything falls under divine providence, but this can also be a contingent process. God’s ‘controlling’ is radically different from human ‘controlling’. As the above document says:

But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation.
God bless and Merry Christmas,
jd
A Merry Christmas to you too.
 
Good. How do you, as a scientist, explain the following:

GOD CONTROLS ALL EVENTS, WHETHER GOOD OR BAD

Nothing happens in the universe without God willing and allowing it. This statement must be taken absolutely of everything with the exception of sin. ‘Nothing occurs by chance in the whole course of our lives’ is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church,** ‘and God intervenes everywhere.’**

I am the Lord, He tells us Himself by the mouth of the prophet Isaias, and there is none else. I form light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things. (Is. 45:6-7) - Fr. Jean Baptiste Saint-Jure

God bless and Merry Christmas,
jd
Not exceping sin, then, is necessary and logical.

God blesses, and Merry Christmas to you and yours!
 
What exactly is meant by: ‘controls’?

That is correct. Everything falls under divine providence.

That is demonstrably false. St. Thomas Aquinas, one of the greatest Fathers and Doctors of the Church, writes:
Al:

Is it possible that God really does control everything and that it looks, to us, as if there are natural laws that do? (I just don’t think Fr. Saint-Jure is so completely incorrect. Also, I don’t think that laws, per se, are alive, i.e., operative in the sense that an alive being is operative. In other words, I don’t think that laws are efficient causes. Rather, is it not that which is our Primary Efficient Cause, who is God, who operates by what we perceive as “laws,” on a continuous basis? In Matthew, I think, there is the consideration of a Sparrow that dies and falls to Earth. Is it not said that God controls everything: even the smallest Sparrow that perishes?)

In another thread, Space, between Yppop, Jano, me and others, there is the concept that everything that takes place is configurations and re-configurations of s-points. (“S-points” is the stuff between electrons and their atoms’ nuclei, or, between electrons and other electrons, for example.)

God bless and I hope you’ve had a joyous Christmas,
jd
 
(cont.)

To zoom in on the point with a more concrete example: The Catholic Church affirms that theology does not require interventionist biological Intelligent Design (which is a hypothesis not officially endorsed by the Church), but rather it is the case that even a contingent process like evolution, as described by science, can fall under divine providence. Below is reproduced paragraph 69 from Communion and Stewardship, an official document of the Catholic Church.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html

Please read very carefully, and try to empty your mind from preconceptions, in order to be able to understand what is actually said here (emphasis in original):
  1. The current scientific debate about the mechanisms at work in evolution requires theological comment insofar as it sometimes implies a misunderstanding of the nature of divine causality. Many neo-Darwinian scientists, as well as some of their critics, have concluded that, if evolution is a radically contingent materialistic process driven by natural selection and random genetic variation, then there can be no place in it for divine providential causality. A growing body of scientific critics of neo-Darwinism point to evidence of design (e.g., biological structures that exhibit specified complexity) that, in their view, cannot be explained in terms of a purely contingent process and that neo-Darwinians have ignored or misinterpreted. The nub of this currently lively disagreement involves scientific observation and generalization concerning whether the available data support inferences of design or chance, and cannot be settled by theology. But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1). In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” (Summa theologiae I, 22, 2).

So now perhaps we are closer to an answer to my above question:

What exactly is meant by: ‘controls’?

Everything falls under divine providence, but this can also be a contingent process. God’s ‘controlling’ is radically different from human ‘controlling’. As the above document says:

But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation.
Al:

It is important to recognize, in St. Thomas’ writing, what is meant by the word, “contingency.” It seems to denote “Chance,” in a way, but does not. In fact, what it means is, dependency. In other words, a thing is dependent upon another (an efficient agency, usually) for its being or its activity. A cat is conditioned (i.e, dependent, in a way) upon the organs and tissues that comprise it. They, in turn, are conditioned upon the atoms and molecules that comprise them. And, the atoms are conditioned on their protons, neutrons, electrons, and electric forces, which, in turn, are conditioned upon quarks. Now, all of these are conditioned, or dependant, on something else. Perhaps, “life,” itself. In other words, “God.”

As St, Augustine said, "“All that happens to us in this world against our will (whether due to men or to other causes) happens to us only by the will of God, by the disposal of Providence, by His orders and under His guidance; and if from the frailty of our understanding we cannot grasp the reason for some event, let us attribute it to divine Providence, show Him respect by accepting it from His hand, believe firmly that He does not send it us without cause.”

God bless,
jd
 
Al:

It is important to recognize, in St. Thomas’ writing, what is meant by the word, “contingency.” It seems to denote “Chance,” in a way, but does not. In fact, what it means is, dependency. In other words, a thing is dependent upon another (an efficient agency, usually) for its being or its activity. A cat is conditioned (i.e, dependent, in a way) upon the organs and tissues that comprise it. They, in turn, are conditioned upon the atoms and molecules that comprise them. And, the atoms are conditioned on their protons, neutrons, electrons, and electric forces, which, in turn, are conditioned upon quarks. Now, all of these are conditioned, or dependant, on something else. Perhaps, “life,” itself. In other words, “God.”

As St, Augustine said, "“All that happens to us in this world against our will (whether due to men or to other causes) happens to us only by the will of God, by the disposal of Providence, by His orders and under His guidance; and if from the frailty of our understanding we cannot grasp the reason for some event, let us attribute it to divine Providence, show Him respect by accepting it from His hand, believe firmly that He does not send it us without cause.”

God bless,
jd
No, You are flatout wrong.

It is abundantly clear from Aquinas’ juxtapopsing contingency with necessity, that he speaks of chance. A juxtaposition of necessity with dependency makes no sense whatsoever. This is also the unequivocal interpretation of the quote within the Church document that I cited, where it is used within the context of discussing evolution.

You are trying to mold things into fitting your preconceptions. I specifically warned against that in my previous post.
 
Al:

Is it possible that God really does control everything and that it looks, to us, as if there are natural laws that do? (I just don’t think Fr. Saint-Jure is so completely incorrect. Also, I don’t think that laws, per se, are alive, i.e., operative in the sense that an alive being is operative. In other words, I don’t think that laws are efficient causes. Rather, is it not that which is our Primary Efficient Cause, who is God, who operates by what we perceive as “laws,” on a continuous basis?
No. The heading before parapgraph 306 of the Catechism that I cited speaks specifially of “secondary causes”. The idea of “secondary causes” has a long Church tradition, and I am afraid if you suggest that God not just is the primary cause of everything, but also “works in everything as direct primary cause” you are getting in a greyzone where you slip outside Catholic teaching, and I know that you do not intend to do that. God is not a puppetmaster with us puppets on a string. This is not Catholic theology, it may be closer to some Protestant theology (I am thinking about predestination, for example).

That God is not a puppetmaster is clear from paragraph 306 of the Catechism:

For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus of co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan.
In Matthew, I think, there is the consideration of a Sparrow that dies and falls to Earth. Is it not said that God controls everything: even the smallest Sparrow that perishes?)
Everything is under God’s all-encompassing knowledge and under His providence. This does not mean that everything is directly controlled by God in the sense of how we humans control things. Again, I repeat from Communion and Stewardship:

But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation.

(Again, coming back to my previous post, this statement makes no sense whatsover if ‘contingent’ is replaced with ‘dependent’.)
God bless and I hope you’ve had a joyous Christmas,
jd
I did, thank you, and I hope yours was joyous too.
 
As St, Augustine said, "“All that happens to us in this world against our will (whether due to men or to other causes) happens to us only by the will of God, by the disposal of Providence, by His orders and under His guidance; and if from the frailty of our understanding we cannot grasp the reason for some event, let us attribute it to divine Providence, show Him respect by accepting it from His hand, believe firmly that He does not send it us without cause.”
And all that I said here affirms that: Everything falls within divine providence. But once more: Providence does not necessarily mean: ‘direct control’ (c.f. paragraph 69 of Communion and Stewardship and paragraph 306 of the Catechism that I cited above).
 
And all that I said here affirms that: Everything falls within divine providence. But once more: Providence does not necessarily mean: ‘direct control’ (c.f. paragraph 69 of Communion and Stewardship and paragraph 306 of the Catechism that I cited above).
I agree. The idea that there is “Someone” Who is “watching” and manipulating is verging on animism in a way that is not worthy of Supreme Being. Most of the theories of Creationism and DI are at best anthropomorphic and needing of maturation.
 
No, You are flatout wrong.

It is abundantly clear from Aquinas’ juxtapopsing contingency with necessity, that he speaks of chance. A juxtaposition of necessity with dependency makes no sense whatsoever. This is also the unequivocal interpretation of the quote within the Church document that I cited, where it is used within the context of discussing evolution.

You are trying to mold things into fitting your preconceptions. I specifically warned against that in my previous post.
Al:

There are two types of necessity in the universe of mobile beings. One is simple or absolute necessity; the other is necessity of a relative or conditional type. “Simple or absolute necessity arises from the material, formal, and efficient causes of things.” – Physics, Bk. II, ch. 9, 199b, 34-35; Principles of Nature, 33; Commentary on the Physics, Bk. II, les. 15, 2; Summa contra Gentiles, Bk. II, chs. 29-30; Bk. I, chs. 83, 85; On Truth, q. 17, a. 3. (all by St. Thomas Aquinas)

“Another type of necessity may be called conditional or relative; and, as the name implies, this necessity depends upon the fulfillment of certain conditions or suppositions.” – (Ibid.)

Simple or absolute necessity from material, formal, and efficient causes are the so-called prior causes, because they exist in reality prior to the final cause. As a necessity arising from the material cause, there is an absolute necessity that an animal be destructible because it is composed of parts. As a necessity owing from the formal cause, man must be a rational creature and a triangle must have interior angles whose sum is a straight angle.

Furthermore, from the point of view of efficient causality, it is necessary that there be an alternation of day and night because of the motions of the earth with respect to the sun. The necessity owing from these prior causes, matter, form, and agent, is simple or absolute. There could be no animal that was not destructible, no man that was not rational, no relative motion of the earth that did not affect night and day. As depending on prior causes, the necessity we find in nature is simple, unconditioned, and absolute.

Take for example, St. Thomas’ Third Way, which is his argument from necessity. The following is from the book Being and God, by Fathers Klubertanz and Holloway (1963), in the section on the discussion of Aquinas’ Third Way, also known as his argument from necessity and contingency. (This book is one of the most respected books on metaphysics and natural theology in all of Catholicism.):

"3.) “…Contingent Being…” – That which can not-be in the order in which it is contingent; for example, a corruptible being can not-be by reason of its essence; and a fortiori by an extrinsic reason, namely, by reason of an external agent. An incorruptible being can not-be only in the order of being; that is, it needs an external agent both for its beginning and for its duration in being.

4.) Necessary Being – That which cannot not-be in the order in which it is necessary, for example:

(a) necessary by a necessity of consequence: while he sits, Socrates necessarily sits.

(b) necessary by a necessity of matter: if material things exist they are necessarily corruptible.

(c) necessary by a necessity of form: forms which are not in matter, or which subsist in matter, have a necessity of being.

(d) necessary by the very act of existing: what cannot not-be because it is the very act of Being. Such a Being does not have the necessity of being, it is the necessary Being itself.
  1. “…the existence of God can be demonstrated…” – From the fact of the corruptibility of material things, and from the fact of the contingency in the order of being of incorruptible things which have their necessity from another, we conclude to the existence of a Being which does not have its necessity of Being from another, but has it of itself. This being is God.
  2. “…as a…necessary Bring…” – That is, in this third way, God terminates our investigation not as the ultimate reason for the existence of motion, nor as the ultimate reason for causality in things, but as the ultimate reason for the act of existing in all things."
Contingency does not mean “chance.” (In fact, St. Thomas treats “chance” as a cause, actually a kind of composite of causes, as it were.) It is: adjective: (contingent on/upon) occurring or existing only if (certain circumstances) are the case; dependent on * his fees were contingent on the success of his search (Oxford Dictionary Online.)

This idea is very tough for most people to wrap themselves around. But, it is imperative if one does not want to have the proverbial floor pulled out from under him because of an incorrect definition of key words.

God bless,
jd*
 
Al:

There are two types of necessity in the universe of mobile beings. One is simple or absolute necessity; the other is necessity of a relative or conditional type. “Simple or absolute necessity arises from the material, formal, and efficient causes of things.” – Physics, Bk. II, ch. 9, 199b, 34-35; Principles of Nature, 33; Commentary on the Physics, Bk. II, les. 15, 2; Summa contra Gentiles, Bk. II, chs. 29-30; Bk. I, chs. 83, 85; On Truth, q. 17, a. 3. (all by St. Thomas Aquinas)

“Another type of necessity may be called conditional or relative; and, as the name implies, this necessity depends upon the fulfillment of certain conditions or suppositions.” – (Ibid.)

Simple or absolute necessity from material, formal, and efficient causes are the so-called prior causes, because they exist in reality prior to the final cause. As a necessity arising from the material cause, there is an absolute necessity that an animal be destructible because it is composed of parts. As a necessity owing from the formal cause, man must be a rational creature and a triangle must have interior angles whose sum is a straight angle.

[snip]

Take for example, St. Thomas’ Third Way, which is his argument from necessity. The following is from the book Being and God, by Fathers Klubertanz and Holloway (1963), in the section on the discussion of Aquinas’ Third Way, also known as his argument from necessity and contingency. (This book is one of the most respected books on metaphysics and natural theology in all of Catholicism.):

"3.) “…Contingent Being…” – That which can not-be in the order in which it is contingent; for example, a corruptible being can not-be by reason of its essence; and a fortiori by an extrinsic reason, namely, by reason of an external agent. An incorruptible being can not-be only in the order of being; that is, it needs an external agent both for its beginning and for its duration in being.

4.) Necessary Being – That which cannot not-be in the order in which it is necessary, for example:

[snip]
  1. “…as a…necessary Bring…” – That is, in this third way, God terminates our investigation not as the ultimate reason for the existence of motion, nor as the ultimate reason for causality in things, but as the ultimate reason for the act of existing in all things."
You know what? I agree with all of that. I know Thomistic metaphysics well enough, and I do not think there is a mistake in your summary.

Basically, contingency means in usual Thomistic terms, it could be or it could not be, and necessity means, it could be only this way and not any other way. Right?

And in the context of the quote by Thomas Aquinas, “contingent” is used that way as well. Things could “either be or not be” (contingent) or they could be “infallibly and by necessity”. Yet in the specific context within the quote, the “either be or not be” is not determined, juxtaposed as it is with “infallibly and by necessity”. Indeed it could be different and allowed by God to be any which way – thus, it could be different “by chance”, and not determined by God. The quote is clearly used in this interpretation in paragraph 69 of Communion and Stewardship, in the context of evolution.
Contingency does not mean “chance.” (In fact, St. Thomas treats “chance” as a cause, actually a kind of composite of causes, as it were.) It is: adjective: (contingent on/upon) occurring or existing only if (certain circumstances) are the case; dependent on * his fees were contingent on the success of his search* (Oxford Dictionary Online.)
Here you make two mistakes:
  1. you confuse a definition of the Oxford Dictionary Online with the use of the term by Thomas.
  1. you confuse the philosophical conclusion by Thomas, that contingent beings are dependent on a necessary being, with the premise, that there are contingent beings, which could be one way or another.
The term ‘contingent’ in Aquinas is not defined as ‘dependent’. That contingent beings are dependent on something else is a philosophical conclusion by Aquinas, but the conclusion itself is not built into the term.
But, it is imperative if one does not want to have the proverbial floor pulled out from under him because of an incorrect definition of key words.
I agree. It is clear that the conflation of contingent with meaning ‘dependent’ makes no sense. Again, as I said, try to replace the word ‘contingent’ in the Aquinas quote and in parapgraph 69 of Communion and Stewardship with ‘dependent’. It becomes a disaster. I will do it for the latter:

But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true dependency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence. Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly dependent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation.

Huh ?? :confused::confused:

Of course everything is dependent on God, so to say that this fact is “not incompatible” with a purposeful divine providence would be silly. And if that were the trivial point, then what would be the point of “Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree”? In created causality things are also dependent on one another. And in the last sentence the word “even” and the phrase “can nonetheless fall within” would be nonsensical.

You see, conflating ‘contigent’ with ‘dependent’ is going nowhere here.
 
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