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jonathan_hili
Guest
I think Peter Kreeft said it rightly when he said Jesus was speaking as a loving brother, not as a statistician: if one is not saved, that is too many; if 99 are saved, that is too few.
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lileli
Guest
The Church does not teach that non Catholics go to hell and surely just because a country was not colonized by Catholic Spain(the way the faith spread throughout latin america) should not be a reason for them to go to hell.
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patmiron
Guest
A truly great reply even if it does evade IMO answering the OP’s question.
God Bless,
Patrick
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multitude
Guest
I have no real problem with the traditional teaching that most people are hellbound. At the end of the day, you just have to ask yourself whether you, yourself, and only you, are the one who is trying to go through the narrow gate. Sure we can look around at everyone else and their lukewarmness, their sinfulness, their indifference, but ultimately are we any different from them? If not, then make every effort to change, and go through the narrow gate.
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hapidawg
Guest
The words are “few” “many” “narrow” and “wide”. We can not quantify these words, but the Scripture is clear. We can know for sure that we are living in a state of grace and that we are eternally secure.
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Valentinus
Guest
We should think what Jesus really meant to inform us about in this passage. The Scripture usually tells us what we need to know about our salvation and how to attain it. Now, the Scripture usually do not contain passages that in no way serve this purpose or, so to say, speak about things that are not really our business (like the time of the Second Coming). If we scrutinize a passage, it should be read with this in mind.
What is important for us in this passage, then? The fact that it is not effortless to get to Heaven, so we have to strive for it wholeheartedly.
The numbers of the elect and the damned and their proportions are in no way connected to our personal salvation (we should strive for it anyway), so I would say that they are not really our matter nor anything we should be concerned about.
God bless you, V.
What is important for us in this passage, then? The fact that it is not effortless to get to Heaven, so we have to strive for it wholeheartedly.
The numbers of the elect and the damned and their proportions are in no way connected to our personal salvation (we should strive for it anyway), so I would say that they are not really our matter nor anything we should be concerned about.
God bless you, V.
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patmiron
Guest
You ask a very profound question my friend: "In the end are we any better than them?’
The s Answer BETTER be YES!
It is OUR responsibility to make every effort possible to MERIT heaven. That my friend is WHY Jesus gives to humanity ALONE the Godly Attributes of an intellect [different than our I Q level]; a mind [not meaning hear the brain] and a FREEWILL, which all are then attached permanently to OUR Souls; which by the way is HOW we emulate our God as promised in Genesis 1:26-27
Like our God who is **“SPIRIT” **& truth; these attributes are invisible- “spiritual realities.”
Then if we read Isaiah 43 verses 7 & 21 we discover the REASON God has given [entrusted is a better word] these powerful gifts to Us and notihng else on planet earth is so enabled ; We are to freely choose to Know, Love, Serve, Obey and to WORSHIP HIM
Where each of us will spend ETERNITY is OUR personal choice so we had BETTER do more, be more focused than the masses around us and choose Heaven over hell!
God Bless you. Strive to be the lamp on the hillside for ALL to see our example for tjem to follow. amen!
Patrick
Which is why one of the properties of the mysteries of predestination and reprobation is Uncertainty. The numbers of the predestined and the reprobate are immutable, but unknown to man.
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PJM
Guest
FYI:
“Predestination” as used in the NT biblical text does NOT means what is one’s 1st understanding today. Nor does it mean in the same context what a great many non-catholic-christian’s choose to believe.
It’s RIGHT [and truthful] definition is that God; BEING GOD, Knows before hand what our FREEWILL decision will be; and therefore from that understanding, can use the term “predestined” in the sense of KNOWING who will; and who will not accept and rightly apply the necessary Offered Graces needed to merit one’s salvation.
We can know this with absolute certainty for two clear and precise reasons:
- Were God actually to predestine humanity gifted with God “like” attributes of a mind, intellect and freewill; all of which every man; AND ONLY MAN, have precisely so that we CAN using these exclusive attributes DECIDE FOR OURSELVES Heaven or Hell for all Eternity.
- Secondly: “predestination” by God would deprive humanity of the USE of the VERY ATTRIBUTES given to them so that they COULD freely choose for themselves where they would spend eternity! Again in doing so; absolutely requiring God to choose BOTH Good [for some} and undeserved EVIL for others; and to be a “Good and PERFECT” God could not in ab absolute sense do this.[/COLOR]
**
So we can know that “predestination” bionically means only on God’s part; foreknowledge:thumbsup:
Patrick**
FYI:
“Predestination” as used in the NT biblical text does NOT means what is one’s 1st understanding today. Nor does it mean in the same context what a great many non-catholic-christian’s choose to believe.
It’s RIGHT [and truthful] definition is that God; BEING GOD, Knows before hand what our FREEWILL decision will be; and therefore from that understanding, can use the term “predestined” in the sense of KNOWING who will; and who will not accept and rightly apply the necessary Offered Graces needed to merit one’s salvation.
We can know this with absolute certainty for two clear and precise reasons:
Were God then to override these gifts bt actually choosing who is; and who is not going to be saved; He would have HAD TOO BE IN ERROR in giving man these extraordinary gifts; and therefore would NOT be our Perfect God!
- Were God actually to predestine humanity gifted with God “like” attributes of a mind, intellect and freewill; all of which every man; AND ONLY MAN, have precisely so that we CAN using these exclusive attributes DECIDE FOR OURSELVES Heaven or Hell for all Eternity.
God Bless you,
- Secondly: “predestination” by God would deprive humanity of the USE of the VERY ATTRIBUTES given to them so that they COULD freely choose for themselves where they would spend eternity! Again in doing so; absolutely requiring God to choose BOTH Good [for some} and undeserved EVIL for others; and to be a “Good and PERFECT” God could not in ab absolute sense do this.[/COLOR]
**
So we can know that “predestination” bionically means only on God’s part; foreknowledg**e:thumbsup:
Patrick
Um, no.
Predestination is not merely foreknowledge. It is also an active act of God’s will and sovereignty. God does not merely “know”, he also ordains the elect that will be saved. This is Catholic teaching. This is also where the property of immutability comes in. Because God’s sovereign will is perfect, it cannot change.
This is the trap Catholics usually fall into, usually in their zeal to combat Calvinistic predestination. The result is that they end up denying predestination itself, which is part of the deposit of faith.
The correct understanding of predestination does not exclude man’s free will or God’s sovereignty. Calvinists err on the former, and many Catholics err on the latter. But it’s both, and any proper understanding of predestination always includes both, in addition the Universal Desire for Salvation. HOW all these work hand-in-hand, however is not defined by the Church, so within certain parameters, we are free to hold on to diverse schools of thought. Go Thomist or Molinist, whichever suits you, but we do not deny the mystery of active predestination, which is a de fide teaching of the faith.
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PJM
Guest
Thank you;
However I don’t think my post is wrong; although it may be in complete:
Xavier Le’on–Deufour’s Dictionary of Biblical Theology has this to say on “Predestination”
“the elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. Behind Predestination
, then is this foreknowledge, this election” But now we come to this second aspect of God’s Plan. The choice is maid with an end in view." END QUOTE
The point I was TRYING to make is God does not interfere with man’s freewill: It is US ho by our live’s choices select for ourselves; heaven or hell.
The above author goes on to say[cf] precisely that God God cannot Ordain evil.
Those my friend are the two salient points of my post.
Thanks agan; God Bless you,
Patrick PJM}
The definition is deficient. Predestination is more than mere foreknowledge. It’s also a divine decree. God decrees from eternity who will be saved, and this is taking into account man’s free will.
Again, omitting God’s sovereign will or man’s free will from the equation leads to heretical understandings of the mystery of predestination. Saying “predestination=mere foreknowledge” is just as heretical as “man has no free will”.
[/quote]
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punisherthunder
Guest
Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.
However by now, 99% of the countries have exposure to the Catholic Church. Then again, some people argue that Massa Damnata is a true teaching.
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truetofaith
Guest
I don’t think so…God knows who will be saved but he doesn’t make the choice for them. Why would anyone want to try to live a holy life if God already has them condemned ?
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mikekle
Guest
The question is, since God knows whether a person will go to hell or heaven when they are still a fetus in the womb, as they go thru their lives, lets say they pray to God, does he answer them, does he ‘try’ with them (all the while knowing they are going to hell anyway)I don’t think so…God knows who will be saved but he doesn’t make the choice for them. Why would anyone want to try to live a holy life if God already has them condemned ?
I sometimes wonder and worry about this, as I know Im far from perfect, but I still pray every day, yet I have NEVER ONCE felt God in my life, there are times when I came extremely close to very bad things, but it turned out fine, I WANT to say it was God, but I cant know this for sure ( I guess that is faith though)…I just wish I knew FOR SURE…??
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JMM1957
Guest
The Catholic Church definition of predestination is the correct one. “God includes in His plan each persons free response to His grace. In the end, anyone who is saved will have been predestined by God because it was God’s predestined plan and God’s grace the went before him and enabled him to be saved”. 1 Tim: 2:4. “God wills everyone to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth”. Understanding this verse any other way, or reading into it something that is not there, is making God out to be a liar. God shows no partiality. Thinking that God has knowingly chosen from the foundation of the world, by name, those that He desires to be saved and those that He desires to be condemned is simply non-Biblical and a concoction of the evil one, to keep us in bondage and fear. This type of thinking takes away our total free will in the process. This reasoning does not preclude God from have a foreknowledge of who will be saved or not though.
The concept of predestination is no doubt a difficult one to wrap our head around, but knowing that our God is love itself, and wants each person to be saved should be enough for us to live in hope. Now we all just need to do our part in response to God’s calling and grace.
The concept of predestination is no doubt a difficult one to wrap our head around, but knowing that our God is love itself, and wants each person to be saved should be enough for us to live in hope. Now we all just need to do our part in response to God’s calling and grace.
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punisherthunder
Guest
I’ve been reading as much info about Massa Damnata that I can from the early Church Fathers.Here’s how only few are saved:
- Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is true (So if you’re not Catholic your out).
- Catholics who are not in full communion with the Church. There were 500 people or so at Mass the other day, and only my wife and I were the only ones in the confessional prior to Mass. Imagine how many Catholics may be in mortal sin and still receive the Eucharist
- If Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is valid, then any Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc is automatically on the road to perdition.
- If 7 billion people are on the planet, and you subtract all these above factors you can see how only few make it. Say 30,000 people worldwide die right now at this very moment. Say 3,000 of those are Catholic. Now say that only 25 do not have any mortal sins on them. But out of these 25, 21 still have venial sins on them. Using this logic: Out of 30,000 people, only 21 went to Purgatory and 4 went to Heaven. The rest were damned…
This is Calvinist predestination and is condemned.I don’t think so…God knows who will be saved but he doesn’t make the choice for them. Why would anyone want to try to live a holy life if God already has them condemned ?
But the proper Catholic understanding of predestination DOES include God’s decree AND man’s free will.
Omit one or the other, and you have heresy.
The Catholic understanding of predestination does state that God decrees (it is an active ordinance, not merely passive foreknowledge) who will be saved. Whether this is considering man’s foreseen merits or without consideration of them is an open question; the Church has not defined it and Catholics are free to hold on to either position.
The proper understanding of predestination also requires us to hold that God desires all to be saved (i.e. the universal desire of salvation). Therefore, he does not predestine anyone to hell without consideration of any foreseen demerits. This condemns Calvinistic double-predestination as a horrible, twisted vision of God’s sovereignty, love and justice.
BUT, and here is where Catholics are often tripped up. We also do hold that God DOES predestine people to hell too; this is called the mystery of reprobation. However, we do NOT hold that this reprobation is unconditional. Just as with predestination, it involves man’s free will and is always in consideration of one’s foreseen demerits. And just the predestined/elect, the number of the reprobate is both immutable and unknown.
This is why I tend to lean towards the Molinist position, because it presents a consistent view of both predestination and reprobation, although the Thomist/Banezan position on predestination is also quite attractive. The problem I have with the Thomist position is that they don’t have a good counterpart for reprobation; applying the Thomist position to reprobation pretty much equals Calvinist double-predestination.
Predestination is one of the most difficult concepts grasp, but it IS a de fide teaching of the Catholic faith. So hold on to the Thomist, Molinist or some other acceptable position, but Catholics are not permitted to deny it.
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feed_me
Guest
The scripture is basically saying that it is a 1 to 10 ratio or larger, where 1 gets in to heaven many more will not, basically.
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