only one correct religion with the truth?

[marywarfield]

Mary,
This may be off topic, but would you mind giving it a read? Its part of the real world:

iranpresswatch.org/post/9953/

Thanks and God bless,
Dale

Yes this is awful and part of the real world. And
I have to ask again why Servant believes Catholicism
must change in order to keep Muslims from
persecuting Bahai? That’s absurd.

Yes and look. In that same time period several
Iranian Catholics escaped to the US and settled
here in our town. They cannot return to Iran or visit
any relatives left alive after the purge,

Baha’i were not the only victims in Iran.

If what he is looking for is “sustainable tolerance”
he already has it with the Church. So why pick a fight
with us? Not rational.

 

[Servant19]

Uh no. We do not have a need to be as benevolent to you
as Islam because actual point of fact: you have experienced
no oppression from the Catholic Church now have you?
Your comparison is ABSURD and insulting.

You try to compare the liability insurance issues of a parish
priest who won’t let you use a classroom to Bahai
babies and mother jailed?
Is your perception of reality that skewed?

When you find a place where Bahai are being actually
persecuted by the Catholic Church and we are jailing your
babies- by all means
try again.

But if tolerance already exists between Bahai and
Catholic the classy thing for you to do would be to say
hey great and move on.

And btw we don’t let other religious groups use our
parish rooms either. Not Bahai, not Islam, not Jews,
not Hindhus. Why? Insurance. Sorry for the torture
inflicted upon you.
We just this year began renting our parish hall for
non Catholic events. A nightmare in insurance.
Every time some blighter sneaks in a beer the price doubles.
Now we have to also have a non refundable deposit
on the oven cause they left it a mess.

See the Catholic Church lives in the REAL world
Servant. We don’t have time to torture you or put
up with fantasy persecutions.

Good grief.

Dear sister Mary

Firstly I seem to have become the cause of a reduction in joy in your heart and for this I repent, I pray to God to forgive me for my inabilities to express myself in a manner that will bring joy and exultation to all.

There are a few points to consider if I maybe humbly submit for your consideration

1. Please let me state categorically that I in no way was comparing the in accessibility of a room to mass persecution nor did I state as such…
2. What is the point of living if we cannot find means and ways to show forth more love. If God is infinite, then His attributes are similarly infinite, and if He is All-Loving then there is no limits to how much we can express that love, for surely the purpose of baptism is to open ourselves to being All-Loving too.
3. This whole dialogue is as a result of Matthews post which expressed that exclusive rights to interpretation is damaging. Yes, the Catholic Church does not put mothers and babies in prison, but I cannot see how condemning me, my wife and my children to no salvation is not too dissimilar, especially when I can put hand on heart and state that the Holy Spirit is very much ALIVE in my life and in my family’s lives (the thought of which puts me to tears, in humility to Gods all encompassing grace). Why would the Catholic Church say no to my salvation when there is such a loving approach to Faith and works? Is this not an injustice inflicted upon me, my children?

Again please do not consider this last point as an accusation of equating the Cathlic Church to Islamic persecution of Baha’is. I am simply asking a question that I feel needs to be addressed given the context of this thread .

Thank you for reading

.

 

[daler]

Yes this is awful and part of the real world. And
I have to ask again why Servant believes Catholicism
must change in order to keep Muslims from
persecuting Bahai? That’s absurd.

Yes and look. In that same time period several
Iranian Catholics escaped to the US and settled
here in our town. They cannot return to Iran or visit
any relatives left alive after the purge,

Baha’i were not the only victims in Iran.

If what he is looking for is “sustainable tolerance”
he already has it with the Church. So why pick a fight
with us? Not rational.

Mary,
. Thank you for your kind remarks. It is the treatment of souls all over the whole world which is so shameful and painful to watch. Like the kidnapping of all those girls from a school in Africa recently. What I think is frustrating is that there are so many people of good will who want to help, and do help, whenever they can find a meaningful way. People of all Faiths and non-faiths, doing what their conscience tells them to do. The challenge is how do we combine and work together, like the fingers of one hand, which do not fight and are not separated from a single hand, that hand paired with the other, part of one body with one heart.
. I know that Servant means well and intends constructive dialogue. I can’t speak for him, but the way I read his comments I don’t see him in any way as wanting to “pick a fight”. Please try and overlook that in his statements. His own family has suffered at the hands of fanatics in Persia, his cousin being killed last summer.
. And as you say, it isn’t just Baha’is, but Catholics, Jews, and other Muslims being targeted. There is something we all need to figure out how to do to effect a change in humanity and our approach to each other, to coordinate as children of the One God, who may have inherited different systems of belief, of which we had no choice.
. But here we are, in the 21st century, still trying to solve the world’s problems, whether in our home town or across the globe. We send our kids off to war generation after generation. There’s always a new enemy to hate. Its mind-boggling, and the root causes are many.
. If I may offer a quote which is relative to the level of persecution going on, whether Iran in the present, or Northern Ireland in the recent past, and Germany only a few decades ago… something Baha’u’llah warns against is this:

. "Religious fanaticism and hatred are a world-devouring fire, whose violence none can quench. "

. This is what we are seeing more and more of in this time, and it is frightening.
.

 

[PRmerger]

The challenge is how do we combine and work together, like the fingers of one hand, which do not fight and are not separated from a single hand, that hand paired with the other, part of one body with one heart.

Is there something in Catholicism that you think prevents this?

 

[Servant19]

Is there something in Catholicism that you think prevents this?

I don’t think as Baha’is we would be encouraged to point fingers (if you excuse the pun . ) at specific religious populations and call them out as a “reason” for the problems in the world.

Nor would we point to any religion to say that their teachings are without doubt the ONLY solution to the worlds problems.

What a Bahai would encourage is that as individuals, as a community, and as institutions serving humanity we are ALWAYS on the search for advancement. If the structure of society is man made and crumbling, and has been for thousands of years, then why would we not fully investigate and implement a system by which the individual, community and institutions of society would flourish?

Are you as an individual happy with your spiritual condition today? or would you be going to confession, repenting for your sins, praying for forgiveness and striving to make tomorrow a better, and less sinful person than today?

If you would want tomorrow’s PRMerger to be better than today’s PRMerger, then why would you not recommend this for the community and the institutions serving it?

As you say about yourself sometimes, maybe this is beyond Catholicisms paygrade, and I mean no disrespect here towards Catholicism, but has Catholicism investigated the possibility that it may not be privy to any Revelation to guide mankind in this manner.

I know you showed me pictures of great reverence amongst Catholics, etc, and this shows great measures for individual spiritual progress, but what about the US community as a whole, and it’s institutions?

.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t think as Baha’is we would be encouraged to point fingers (if you excuse the pun . ) at specific religious populations and call them out as a “reason” for the problems in the world.

As your comment here is in response to the question “Is there something in Catholicism that you think prevents this?” you must mean that Catholicism does point fingers at specific religious populations and calls them out as reasons for the problems in the world.

Please provide an example of a Catholic document that does this.

And, could you also provide the example asked earlier to support your claim that Catholicism teaches that a verse means ABC while the Orthodox denies that it teaches ABC, while teaching that it actually means DEF.

Please cite your sources.

Thanks.

Nor would we point to any religion to say that their teachings are without doubt the ONLY solution to the worlds problems.

Well, since Jesus is indeed the ONLY solution to the world’s problems, I suppose you are correct in that Catholicism does indeed state that without Jesus there is no solution…

and you object to our right to say this…why? Especially in light of the fact that you seem to support Matthew’s view that it is wrong to state that another’s views are incorrect. That seems rather peculiar to me.

 

[Servant19]

As your comment here is in response to the question “Is there something in Catholicism that you think prevents this?” you must mean that Catholicism does point fingers at specific populations and calls them out as reasons for the problems in the world.

No not at all, you have misunderstood. Please read it at face value. I speak of what Baha’is should do. I am not a Catholic so making comments like what you suggest is outside my limited knowledge of the Catholic community.

And, could you also provide the example asked earlier to support your claim that Catholicism teaches that a verse means ABC while the Orthodox denies that it teaches ABC, while teaching that it actually means DEF.

Please cite your sources.

Thanks.

The ABCDEF etc was just an arbitrary example to demonstrate interpretation differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Well, since Jesus is indeed the ONLY solution to the world’s problems, I suppose you are correct in that Catholicism does indeed state that without Jesus there is no solution…

and you object to our right to say this…why? Especially in light of the fact that you seem to support Matthew’s view that it is wrong to state that another’s views are incorrect. That seems rather peculiar to me.

Let me put it this way, I would be delighted if the world worked towards implementation of Bahai principles and revered Christ as the Creator of heaven and earth.

Bahai principles are a MUST to be globally implemented if the world is to progress. There is very little I have seen in Catholicism that touches on the divine principles elaborated by Baha’u’llah for the salvation of the global community and it’s institutions .

.

 

[PRmerger]

What a Bahai would encourage is that as individuals, as a community, and as institutions serving humanity we are ALWAYS on the search for advancement. If the structure of society is man made and crumbling, and has been for thousands of years, then why would we not fully investigate and implement a system by which the individual, community and institutions of society would flourish?

Catholicism has no objection to re-structuring any man-made paradigm and implementing any new systems which offer progress and an ability to flourish.

Were you operating under some misapprehension that Catholicism objects to this?

If so, could you please cite the Catholic document that discourages us as individuals and a community from searching for advancement?

Are you as an individual happy with your spiritual condition today? or would you be going to confession, repenting for your sins, praying for forgiveness and striving to make tomorrow a better, and less sinful person than today?

It’s the proverbial Catholic both/and at work here, Servant.

There is no need to create a dichotomy where none exists.

If you would want tomorrow’s PRMerger to be better than today’s PRMerger, then why would you not recommend this for the community and the institutions serving it?

As long as the “this” that you are referring to is grounded in Truth, why would we object to it?

As you say about yourself sometimes, maybe this is beyond Catholicisms paygrade, and I mean no disrespect here towards Catholicism, but has Catholicism investigated the possibility that it may not be privy to any Revelation to guide mankind in this manner.

We believe Him when He told us that all public revelation ceased with the death of the last Apostle.

Why would we doubt Him who is the source of All Truth?

That would be whacky to say, “I know that God said it, but I just want to see if He’s wrong about it. Maybe He does indeed have a plan to offer some new revelation that contradicts His old revelation.”

I know you showed me pictures of great reverence amongst Catholics, etc, and this shows great measures for individual spiritual progress,

Indeed.

We are educating and nourishing our young folks with the Truth of the gospel in marvelous and magnificent ways.

but what about the US community as a whole, and it’s institutions?

I don’t speak to the US community as a whole and its institutions.

We are talking here about religion in general and Catholicism in particular.

 

[PRmerger]

No not at all, you have misunderstood. Please read it at face value. I speak of what Baha’is should do. I am not a Catholic so making comments like what you suggest is outside my limited knowledge of the Catholic community.

Then you didn’t answer the question, and you shouldn’t have posted it in response to my question.

 

[PRmerger]

The ABCDEF etc was just an arbitrary example to demonstrate interpretation differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Well, then, cite your sources to back up your claim.

Give us a teaching regarding a Biblical verse in which the Catholic Church teaches, “It means A!” and the Orthodox say, “It does not mean A! It means B!”

 

[PRmerger]

Let me put it this way, I would be delighted if the world worked towards implementation of Bahai principles and revered Christ as the Creator of heaven and earth.

Where the Bahai principles are consonant with the gospel, I would give a to their implementation.

Where they have diverged from the One Truth, then I say, “Not so much.” :nope:

Bahai principles are a MUST to be globally implemented if the world is to progress. There is very little I have seen in Catholicism that touches on the divine principles elaborated by Baha’u’llah for the salvation of the global community and it’s institutions .

If the Bahais here (save for one) are any example of how their faith is lived, I have no optimism regarding their ability to make the world a better place. They haven’t been able to make their light shine here…so why would I believe they would be able to make their light shine in the real world?

 

[marywarfield]

Dear sister Mary

Firstly I seem to have become the cause of a reduction in joy in your heart and for this I repent, I pray to God to forgive me for my inabilities to express myself in a manner that will bring joy and exultation to all.

There are a few points to consider if I maybe humbly submit for your consideration

1. Please let me state categorically that I in no way was comparing the in accessibility of a room to mass persecution nor did I state as such…
2. What is the point of living if we cannot find means and ways to show forth more love. If God is infinite, then His attributes are similarly infinite, and if He is All-Loving then there is no limits to how much we can express that love, for surely the purpose of baptism is to open ourselves to being All-Loving too.
3. This whole dialogue is as a result of Matthews post which expressed that exclusive rights to interpretation is damaging. Yes, the Catholic Church does not put mothers and babies in prison, but I cannot see how condemning me, my wife and my children to no salvation is not too dissimilar, especially when I can put hand on heart and state that the Holy Spirit is very much ALIVE in my life and in my family’s lives (the thought of which puts me to tears, in humility to Gods all encompassing grace). Why would the Catholic Church say no to my salvation when there is such a loving approach to Faith and works? Is this not an injustice inflicted upon me, my children?

Again please do not consider this last point as an accusation of equating the Cathlic Church to Islamic persecution of Baha’is. I am simply asking a question that I feel needs to be addressed given the context of this thread .

Thank you for reading

.

For Heavens sakes Servant… Who is condemning you your
wife and children to NO salvation? Where are you getting
this stuff? Certainly not the Catholics unless they are a
temporarily revved up convert or an idiot?

I repeat- there is NO salvation for anyone anywhere
without the intercession of the Holy Mother Church.
NO condemnation for anyone without the participation
of the Holy Mother Church.

Why? Because the power to bind and loose belongs to
Peter thus the Church.

Do you have to be Catholic? Well it’s a very good idea
because then you would be helpful to Christ in spreading
that very very good news, but the short answer is no.

So why dumb us down to an us vs them mentality
which is what you are doing here.

The Holy Mother has no us versus them mentality.
We don’t need to as we hold all the cards

The aim of the Holy Mother is to bring this good news
and it is good news to non believers and add to the
Body of her Son Jesus Christ who is the cause of this
good news.

I think it’s wonderful the Ayatollah has finally come
to the conclusion the Church did a long time ago-
Holy wars are not fought with guns.

I’m sorry Servant you can’t make a case for the Church
to give you what you already received from her.

 

[meltzerboy]

No not at all, you have misunderstood. Please read it at face value. I speak of what Baha’is should do. I am not a Catholic so making comments like what you suggest is outside my limited knowledge of the Catholic community.

The ABCDEF etc was just an arbitrary example to demonstrate interpretation differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Let me put it this way, I would be delighted if the world worked towards implementation of Bahai principles and revered Christ as the Creator of heaven and earth.

Bahai principles are a MUST to be globally implemented if the world is to progress. There is very little I have seen in Catholicism that touches on the divine principles elaborated by Baha’u’llah for the salvation of the global community and it’s institutions .

.

With regard to your last statement, I think many religions can claim they are the salvation of the global community and its institutions, and prove it too, including Catholicism as well as Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and so on. Further, you yourself admit to having limited knowledge of the Catholic community so that, it seems to me, what you have seen may not be all there is to Catholicism.

 

[marywarfield]

Bottom line Servant is this:

While it all rages around us you, the ayatollah,
the Iranians, the Jews, and the highly revved converts
have no idea which Catholic today is offering the
Sacrifice of the Mass for who, do you?
Which sinner, which murderer, which Jihadist,
which Bahai, which Buddhist?
But point of fact Mass today is offered for an apostate
Catholic, left the Church and now verbally terrorizes
Catholics over their “idolatry”.
Hopefully Christ listens.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Yes, I understand your analogy. According to Judaism, it is believed that one may follow a different religion and arrive at G-d; one need not practice Judaism. Further, G-d had a hand in intentionally creating or enabling, through humans of course, a multitude of religions, so that there would be many paths toward Him. Christianity has very successfully spread the Word of G-d, as have other faiths, no matter the technical differences from Judaism. I realize Christianity, including Catholicism, does not believe this; for though there may be several paths to Jesus, the end result is always arriving at Jesus. Further, based on what you (and Jesus) state, there is only one path to the Father.

One way to the Father, Dad, but an unlimited number of paths to God.

Actually, in Christianity itself there are many, many ways to God and this is not even taking into account the ways to God other than Christianity.

We, as humans, try to limit God and some seem to think that by limiting God, we are somehow doing God a favor.

I, personally, do not understand this but it seems to coincide with the old saying, “God made us in God’s Image and we have been trying to return the favor ever since”.

Since God Is a Being of Love, whenever we love, the Image of God shines thru us.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I commend you for your restraint, Xuan.

Notwithstanding this great temperance, it is important that you be clear in your position.

It initially did not appear to be consonant with the Catholic Church’s position, nor did it correctly limn that of St. John of the Cross.

Let us be clear: the Catholic Church is the only means for our salvation. And those who reject it reject Him. And those who reject Him can never join Him at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.

You wrote, “Let us be clear: the Catholic Church is the only means for our salvation.”

Isn’t it God and God’s work in the Incarnation that is what will bring about our, humanity’s, salvation?

The “Church”, Jesus’s Church, does have a mission and that mission is, “that the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it”.

The Catholic Church teaches that the “institutional Catholic Church” is not the “boundary”, so to speak, of Jesus’s Church.

We can try to “box” in God all that we want but God will NOT fit into any of our “boxes” no matter how nice we build them.

 

[Tom_Baum]

It depends. You need to finish your sentence first. “…that all other Churches/Faiths are mistaken…” about what?

One of the things that the Roman Catholic Church teaches is that one does NOT need to be a “member” of the Roman Catholic Church to be saved.

 

[Matthew_Light]

There is very little I have seen in Catholicism that touches on the divine principles elaborated by Baha’u’llah for the salvation of the global community and it’s institutions .

.

The Catholic Church and its members are involved with tens of thousands of charitable programs for doing everything from delivering health care to the needy, educating children, building homes, feeding the homeless, and a myriad other projects. These activities reflect the teachings of Christ which are the teachings of Baha’u’llah.

We need to recognize and honor this contribution!

Here are just a few examples:

crs.org/about/mission-statement/
apamhospital.com/
saludhondu.org/

 

[Matthew_Light]

Since God Is a Being of Love, whenever we love, the Image of God shines thru us.

Yes!

 

[PRmerger]

You wrote, “Let us be clear: the Catholic Church is the only means for our salvation.”

Isn’t it God and God’s work in the Incarnation that is what will bring about our, humanity’s, salvation?

Not sure why you think that the above statements are different?

God and God’s work in the Incarnation are made known to you ONLY through the Catholic Church.

Unless there is some other way you know that the Incarnation is salvific?