only one correct religion with the truth?

[Peter_Plato]

I thought the whole point of reform was that the metal is no longer the “purest form of metal”

If it’s the purest form of metal, why would a reform be needed?



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You would need to ask the would-be “reformers” about that.

It appears to be a recognition problem.

 

[Servant19]

You would need to ask the would-be “reformers” about that.

It appears to be a recognition problem.

Hello Peter,

I’m not sure I understand what you mean by a recognition problem?
Can you elaborate further please?



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[Peter_Plato]

Hello Peter,

I’m not sure I understand what you mean by a recognition problem?
Can you elaborate further please?



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Every “reform” is initiated by someone. The question is, “Who is calling for reform and why?”

Merely because “reform” is called for by someone does not entail that it is needed or for the good.

In any society, culture or organization, degeneration is always a possibility. Reformers often do not properly recognize the “good” that exists and frequently cause harm by their failure to assess properly the good in their midst.

 

[Servant19]

Every “reform” is initiated by someone. The question is, “Who is calling for reform and why?”

Merely because “reform” is called for by someone does not entail that it is needed or for the good.

In any society, culture or organization, degeneration is always a possibility. Reformers often do not properly recognize the “good” that exists and frequently cause harm by their failure to assess properly the good in their midst.

I don’t think it’s even necessary that a reform is called. That implies that those within the problem are aware of the problem at all times.

I think that when there are populations oppressed or injustices start to become rife, God calls for reform and takes things into His own hands.

We’ve destroyed the purity of the metal beyond hope on several occasions throughout history and God has given us a brand new pure metal of incredible lustre each time, and yet there are always those that insist on polishing that old block of metal

I generally, and this is my personal opinion, always listen to what God tells me and whispers in my ear when I make my life decisions. Humanity, should collectively do the same.

There are humans who “claim” inspiration and then there are those that ACTUALLY Represent God in earth. For me it’s very clear.

It was equally clear when He guided me to my now wife

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[Matthew_Light]

We’ve destroyed the purity of the metal beyond hope on several occasions throughout history and God has given us a brand new pure metal of incredible lustre each time, and yet there are always those that insist on polishing that old block of metal.

Can you elaborate on this?

 

[Servant19]

Can you elaborate on this?

Hi Matthew, one example would be Islam during the time of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, and maybe what is preached by the ayatollahs in Iran today?



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[SteveVH]

I thought the whole point of reform was that the metal is no longer the “purest form of metal”

If it’s the purest form of metal, why would a reform be needed?



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Hey Servant, long time.

You are confusing the personal flaws and weaknesses of God’s people with the Truth revealed to those people. No reform was needed in the Truth revealed by Jesus Christ, who is God himself. He is God’s only Word therefore no other “word” is necessary, and certainly no reform of that Word is necessary, or even possible.

Your statement is made under the assumption that since a “reformation” purportedly occurred then this is somehow proof that the “metal is no longer the ‘purest form of metal’”. The “metal” is Jesus Christ, not flawed human beings who abused their positions and contradicted their own faith by their actions. It is a historical fact that the dogmas (revealed truths) and doctrines (explanations of those revealed truths) of the Church have not changed since the time of the Apostles. The so called “reformation” resulted, not in some return to the Truth, but rather an abandonment of many aspects of that Truth and the addition of private erroneous judgments concerning that truth.

God’s people are in constant need of reform, on a daily basis. Each of us need to reform our lives in order to live in God’s will, even those of us who have the fullness of truth. The Truth revealed in Jesus Christ, however, cannot be “reformed” or improved upon, or changed. How can anything be more pure than 100% pure? Your notion assumes that God himself, Jesus Christ, is somehow less than 100% pure.

Blessings.

Steve

 

[Servant19]

Hey Servant, long time.

You are confusing the personal flaws and weaknesses of God’s people with the Truth revealed to those people. No reform was needed in the Truth revealed by Jesus Christ, who is God himself. He is God’s only Word therefore no other “word” is necessary, and certainly no reform of that Word is necessary, or even possible.

Your statement is made under the assumption that since a “reformation” purportedly occurred then this is somehow proof that the “metal is no longer the ‘purest form of metal’”. The “metal” is Jesus Christ, not flawed human beings who abused their positions and contradicted their own faith by their actions. It is a historical fact that the dogmas (revealed truths) and doctrines (explanations of those revealed truths) of the Church have not changed since the time of the Apostles. The so called “reformation” resulted, not in some return to the Truth, but rather an abandonment of many aspects of that Truth and the addition of private erroneous judgments concerning that truth.

God’s people are in constant need of reform, on a daily basis. Each of us need to reform our lives in order to live in God’s will, even those of us who have the fullness of truth. The Truth revealed in Jesus Christ, however, cannot be “reformed” or improved upon, or changed. How can anything be more pure than 100% pure? Your notion assumes that God himself, Jesus Christ, is somehow less than 100% pure.

Blessings.

Steve

Great to hear from you again Steve

Hope you and yours are well and healthy

You make some very valid points dear brother. I guess what is and is not in need of reform is subjective to those feeling “oppressed” against I guess.

There is no doubt that Islam is currently in need of some form of reform, and has done for some time now. There are many who believe Christianity went through a reform many centuries ago.

I understand where you are coming from however

God bless you!



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[Matthew_Light]

Hi Matthew, one example would be Islam during the time of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, and maybe what is preached by the ayatollahs in Iran today?



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Agreed.

So the impure metal is our flawed human understandings of God, and how we treat one another based on those flawed beliefs.

I’d agree with that.

 

[Servant19]

Agreed.

So the impure metal is our flawed human understandings of God, and how we treat one another based on those flawed beliefs.

I’d agree with that.

Exactly brother.

To be honest with Steve, no religion has gone totally against the fundamental SPIRITUAL teachings of previous religions. So the problem is not, and has NEVER been Jesus, heave forbid. The problem is us.

Which is the reason why God sends One who is “not of us” in a human Temple to guide us



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[Servant19]

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This now brings us back to the “Teachings” versus “reality” dichotomy and the gap between heaven (the Teachings) and earth (our current reality)

How can we close this gap?

This is my humble understanding and perspective, not the Bahai position

I feel that Christianity would today be the global religion had it had a fundamental and detailed set of Laws.

I feel that Islam would today be the global religion had it had a Divinely founded institutional structure to ensure the Laws are applied according to Muhammad’s direct Revelation. i.e not Hadiths.

Laws are critical to bring the Heaven of the Teachings to earth, and Institutions with CLEAR Divine guidance as to how they function are equally critical.

Let us take alcohol for example. Alcohol is forbidden, by Law, in the Islamic and Bahai Teachings. It is not forbidden due to the personal health problems it brings. It is forbidden because of the FUNDAMENTAL character deterioration it can bring. But some say that they can drink with moderation and can control themselves before any character deterioration. This is correct.

BUT …

This is not a Law intended to help remove those character deteriorations only, it is a socially engineered construct by God to bring all within His Divine shadow, under social Law. When we were told that seat belts must be worn at all times, it did not mean that you don’t need to wear one if you are just popping down the avenue to buy the paper, even though there is probably only one incidence of death in this scenario. It is creating a CULTURAL STANDARD of health and safety for drivers.

This is the importance of Laws.

Now some Laws bring with them reward and punishment, (the twin pillars of Divine Justice) and some have no discernable punishments or rewards but require ACCOMPANIMENT.

Accompaniment is critical for a healthy and fully functioning society. Without accompaniment, ever-advancement is very difficult. When a Bahai, for example, continues to drink alcohol (usually when they are a new Bahai) they are not punished by the institutions, rather they are accompanied and supported to overcome what their hearts wants to do, through nourishing and empowering individuals who are experienced in these processes.

We must bring Heaven to earth, it’s our duty…

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[PRmerger]

(Hey where did your post go btw? Lol)

Which post are you talking about?

 

[PRmerger]

I thought the whole point of reform was that the metal is no longer the “purest form of metal”

If it’s the purest form of metal, why would a reform be needed?



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You seem to be mixing your metaphors, Servant.

No one here is saying that the Church is pure. In fact, the Church herself states that she is imperfect.

“The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though imperfect.”—CCC 825

What is the Pure Metal is the Incarnate Word, Servant. Jesus and His Word, revealed to us through the Church.

 

[Servant19]

Which post are you talking about?

The one that I quoted in post #836, it’s disappeared lol

You seem to be mixing your metaphors, Servant.

No one here is saying that the Church is pure. In fact, the Church herself states that she is imperfect.

“The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though imperfect.”—CCC 825

What is the Pure Metal is the Incarnate Word, Servant. Jesus and His Word, revealed to us through the Church.

I can agree with this.

Reform is DUE to these imperfections, dear sister.

Reform, from my perspective, is to implement systems (or institutions) to ensure the imperfections ALWAYS move towards perfections and closer in line with a Revelation.

I think that God prefers a new Revelation to bring about these reforms. Christianity believes it can do this through the efforts of men.



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[PRmerger]

Reform is DUE to these imperfections, dear sister.

Of course.

Reform, from my perspective, is to implement systems (or institutions) to ensure the imperfections ALWAYS move towards perfections and closer in line with a Revelation.

Indeed.

I think that God prefers a new Revelation to bring about these reforms.

Well, back to the metaphor again: that would be like saying, “We need to add something new to make this Pure Metal more pure.”

There is nothing that can be added. The Metal is as Pure as it can be.

Christianity believes it can do this through the efforts of men.

You have had so many errors regarding Catholicism in particular and Christianity in general, and the above is another example of such.

Christianity believes that it is the effort of men, under the assistance of the Holy Spirit, that will bring about the Kingdom.

 

[Servant19]

Of course.

Indeed.

Well, back to the metaphor again: that would be like saying, “We need to add something new to make this Pure Metal more pure.”

There is nothing that can be added. The Metal is as Pure as it can be.

You have had so many errors regarding Catholicism in particular and Christianity in general, and the above is another example of such.

Christianity believes that it is the effort of men, under the assistance of the Holy Spirit, that will bring about the Kingdom.

Yes of course sister, I think I am aware of the Holy Spirit working through men. I didn’t state an error, I made a demarcation.

Do we view history as what has come from the Holy Spirit working through men or do we look at the fruits of the Holy Spirit gushing forth through ONE MAN

Do we look at what men have wrought throughout history? They all claimed the Holy Spirit, even in modern day Iran.

Or do we look at what God hath wrought, from a small prison cell in the Ottoman Empire or from the plains of Galillee

I prefer to look out to the Point of Adoration in the prison cell or in Galillee

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[PRmerger]

Yes of course sister, I think I am aware of the Holy Spirit working through men. I didn’t state an error, I made a demarcation.

You stated Christianity believes it can do this via the efforts of men.

Please offer the Church document that states this.

Otherwise, it will be clear that you did, indeed, “state an error.”

Do we view history as what has come from the Holy Spirit working through men or do we look at the fruits of the Holy Spirit gushing forth through ONE MAN

It’s the good old Catholic Both/And here.

Do we look at what men have wrought throughout history? They all claimed the Holy Spirit, even in modern day Iran.

Or do we look at what God hath wrought, from a small prison cell in the Ottoman Empire or from the plains of Galillee

Well, as long as what is claimed by the small prison cell is consonant with what the Man from Galilee, we don’t have a problem.

I prefer to look out to the Point of Adoration in the prison cell or in Galillee

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Again, if the prison cell teaching hasn’t divorced itself from the faith given once for all to the saints, we are good.

 

[Servant19]

You stated Christianity believes it can do this via the efforts of men.

Please offer the Church document that states this.

Otherwise, it will be clear that you did, indeed, “state an error.”

It’s the good old Catholic Both/And here.

Do we look at what men have wrought throughout history? They all claimed the Holy Spirit, even in modern day Iran.

Well, as long as what is claimed by the small prison cell is consonant with what the Man from Galilee, we don’t have a problem.

Again, if the prison cell teaching hasn’t divorced itself from the faith given once for all to the saints, we are good.

Hello PR,

I think the whole point of reform is that there is a NEED within the religion that is not being met. Namely, and often this is the case, society has become highly complex and the level if human interaction and collaboration demand higher intensity.

Of course, a new Revelation from one man, MUST acknowledge and build upon previous Revelations. The commonly used word “fulfils” comes to mind in that Christianity fulfilled Judaism. There is no contradiction, when Christianity is fully explored, but Christianity in many ways REFORMS Judaism

A reform does not mean we should continue as we were. No, it means do what we did in the purest forms of the previous Revelations, but BUILD upon it to account for the new paradigms presented.

It’s the BUILDING UPON that is critical. Who decides what is the correct “added extras”?
One man who is the begetter of the Holy Spirit?
Or several men, who claim to have the Holy Spirit working through them? Like in Iran…



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[PRmerger]

Hello PR,

I think the whole point of reform is that there is a NEED within the religion that is not being met.

No.

The point of reform is that there are those who have corrupted the teachings.

The Catholic faith meets our needs as human persons seeking God FULLY and COMPLETELY.

Namely, and often this is the case, society has become highly complex and the level if human interaction and collaboration demand higher intensity.

Sure.

Of course, a new Revelation from one man, MUST acknowledge and build upon previous Revelations. The commonly used word “fulfils” comes to mind in that Christianity fulfilled Judaism. There is no contradiction, when Christianity is fully explored, but Christianity in many ways REFORMS Judaism

Indeed.

And now that the metal is pure, there is no need to try to add any more elements to attempt to purify the metal.

All that does is vitiate it. Not purify that which was already completely pure.

A reform does not mean we should continue as we were

So right.

No, it means do what we did in the purest forms of the previous Revelations, but BUILD upon it to account for the new paradigms presented.

It means re-examine how we live the Revelation. Not change and reform the Revelation.

It’s the BUILDING UPON that is critical.

Yep.

Who decides what is the correct “added extras”?

There is no need for “added extras” since the Foundation was whole, complete and pure in its inception.

One man who is the begetter of the Holy Spirit?
Or several men, who claim to have the Holy Spirit working through them?

Both/And again, Servant. Both/And.

 

[Servant19]

No.

The point of reform is that there are those who have corrupted the teachings.

Thank you for your thoughts again sister and again in general I agree with them

My question relates to the part I have quoted from your post. How do you know that those who are guided by the Holy Spirit (or so they claim) are not in fact corrupting the religion?



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