only one correct religion with the truth?

[PRmerger]

Thank you for your thoughts again sister and again in general I agree with them

My question relates to the part I have quoted from your post. How do you know that those who are guided by the Holy Spirit (or so they claim) are not in fact corrupting the religion?



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Because we already have the One Faith given to us 2000 years ago. To the degree that men today diverge from that One Faith (for example, to say that Jesus did not bodily resurrect) is the degree that we say: you have corrupted the Faith given once for all.)

 

[vsedriver]

We’ve destroyed the purity of the metal beyond hope on several occasions throughout history and God has given us a brand new pure metal of incredible lustre each time, and yet there are always those that insist on polishing that old block of metal

.

on the contrary, the metal is still pure, the application maybe tainted. The reform needed is to reform the metal users, not the metal.

The church Christ founded is pure, the people in it are flawed. But most people don’t know how to separate the Church from the individuals in it.

 

[Peter_Plato]

on the contrary, the metal is still pure, the application maybe tainted. The reform needed is to reform the metal users, not the metal.

The church Christ founded is pure, the people in it are flawed. But most people don’t know how to separate the Church from the individuals in it.

pivotalplayers.com/irenaeus-the-martyr/

 

[Irishgal49]

On the surface, it seems to me one would be a fool if they didn’t think the religious faith they are a part of was true. That doesn’t mean, however, that I have a say regarding others at the second coming of Christ. I believe Lutheranism is a true reflection of the catholic faith, and I believe that whatever flaws or errors other Christian groups have are the purview of grace. And if those others are under God’s grace, who am I to pronounce condemnation.

Jon

Lots of people belong to churches/faiths they don’t believe. LOTS of people.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Lots of people belong to churches/faiths they don’t believe. LOTS of people.

You would know that how?

Beliefs are often very difficult to express and are often incompletely understood by the individual him/herself. Voicing a belief is not necessarily or completely representative of the authentic belief being expressed. It is possible for beliefs to be conflicting and aspects to be doubted or questioned. More often than not most individuals could not, with 100% assurance, detail precisely what they believe, especially where religious beliefs are concerned because these touch on virtually every aspect of subjective and objective reality.

It is simplistic to claim “Lots of people belong the churches they don’t believe,” since a consistent psychological/spiritual/social accounting for why they continue to belong would be required to make sense of your claim.

 

[Irishgal49]

You would know that how?

Beliefs are often very difficult to express and are often incompletely understood by the individual him/herself. Voicing a belief is not necessarily or completely representative of the authentic belief being expressed. It is possible for beliefs to be conflicting and aspects to be doubted or questioned. More often than not most individuals could not, with 100% assurance, detail precisely what they believe, especially where religious beliefs are concerned because these touch on virtually every aspect of subjective and objective reality.

It is simplistic to claim “Lots of people belong the churches they don’t believe,” since a consistent psychological/spiritual/social accounting for why they continue to belong would be required to make sense of your claim.

I would know that because people have told me, obviously. Also I have went to churches and found that I don’t agree with them at all. Why I stayed is the real question. And I was told that if you disagree with anything that the Catholic Church teaches you aren’t a real Catholic and you have to change or you’re wrong. If someone isn’t willing to change (or maybe they can’t due to past trauma, whatever) they are sort of left out and too bad for them. My favorite comment is, “You should leave. I’m sure a happy convert will take your place”. I still maintain that there are a lot of people who go to church but don’t believe in it.

 

[PRmerger]

Why I stayed is the real question. And I was told that if you disagree with anything that the Catholic Church teaches you aren’t a real Catholic and you have to change or you’re wrong.

Well, on the one hand, I don’t think anyone ought to be telling anyone who’s a Catholic that she’s not a “real Catholic”.

What does that even mean? And I doubt that anyone has told you that here, on the CAFs, without being reprimanded.

However, the point of being in the Catholic Church is so you can conform your views to Christ’s.

Otherwise, what you do, when you leave the CC to search for a church that matches all your own beliefs, is to create a god in your own image, right?

 

[Peter_Plato]

I would know that because people have told me, obviously.

Oh, okay. The question is undeniably settled, then.

 

[Servant19]

Because we already have the One Faith given to us 2000 years ago. To the degree that men today diverge from that One Faith (for example, to say that Jesus did not bodily resurrect) is the degree that we say: you have corrupted the Faith given once for all.)

Thank you sister. I think you will find that those incidences that Sochi and daler were referring to that warranted a religion to be reformed were conducted by those claiming to believing in the bodily resurrection of Jesus.

You may also find that many of those who were oppressed (as per daler and Sochis experiences) are even today suffering from the oppression and it’s traumas and scars.

There are then a series of communities who do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus who are providing spiritual solace and healing to those oppressed populations.

So what’s your thoughts on the necessity for this teaching to be true or false for resolving the problems which raised the subject of “reform” in the first place?



.

 

[Servant19]

on the contrary, the metal is still pure, the application maybe tainted. The reform needed is to reform the metal users, not the metal.

The church Christ founded is pure, the people in it are flawed. But most people don’t know how to separate the Church from the individuals in it.

Thank you vse. I totally agree with you, but what is the point of religion if it has minimal impact on the flaws of some of its adherents?

The Church is pure, I love so much about the teachings of the Church

The one question it has spent 2000 years trying to solve is how to make all it’s adherents pure embodiments of its teachings.
Maybe this is the “final” teaching that it is waiting for?

The bringing of Heaven to earth…



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[PRmerger]

Thank you vse. I totally agree with you, but what is the point of religion if it has minimal impact on the flaws of some of its adherents?

You would not know what these people would be like were it not for their faith. Maybe they’d really be crooked and wicked and Catholicism has lifted them up a bit.

So I wouldn’t really judge said flaws.

As the story goes of the snippy woman who told a curmudgeon, “And you call yourself a Catholic”…

the response is, “My dear, you should imagine what I would be like were I not a Catholic.”

 

[PRmerger]

Thank you vse. I totally agree with you, but what is the point of religion if it has minimal impact on the flaws of some of its adherents?

Incidentally, if you’re going to judge our members, why not be fair and assess all of us?

Don’t forget about the Mother Theresas and Maximilian Kolbes that also belong to our Church?

I haven’t heard of any Bahais who have given their life for a complete stranger out of love.

 

[lynnvinc]

I really don’t think it’s morally right for any one religion to say they are the only true religion and that everyone else is wrong. If any one religion claims to be the only truth, then they must surely be a lie? What do you think?

There’s a wonderful film (actually a trilogy of films) that addresses that question beautifully: The Perfect Stranger, Another Perfect Stranger, and The Perfect Gift.

These are low budget films, extremely well done by Protestants (don’t know their denomination), but they pretty much apply to any mainstream Christian denomination, including Catholicism.

Despite a couple of glitches* for Catholics, they are really wonderful, tremendous films. I saw the first film on Protestant TV and ordered the others online. I’m now giving them to a nephew who has strayed from the Church due to personal issues. These films are especially good for those types of people…bec the protagonists in each have issues that have driven them away from God; and the story is about Jesus coming to them and bringing them back into his loving arms.

---

*I gave the films to a nun I know (Mother Prioress) and asked if there were anything anti- or non-Catholic in them. She mentioned 2 issues.

1. The Jesus character mentions briefly in the 1st film his “brother,” James. James in the Bible does call himself, “Brother of Jesus,” but of course, that could very easily mean parallel cousin, since in Jesus’s kinship terminology system (as in the Tamil system and many other systems), a person’s mother’s sister’s and father’s brother’s children are referred to by the same term as brothers and sisters. (In the Hawaiian system all cousins are referred to by the same term as brothers and sisters.) Anyway, we will find out one day when we go to heaven.
2. The Jesus character speaks against religion and the hierarchy, but in my reading of the films what he is actually speaking are those “religious” folks who turn people away from religion by being too mean, forceful, pestering, and unloving. I do think Jesus’s heart would be breaking to see church “gargoyles” pushing people away from him, not allowing them to come to him from where they are, from their level of understanding and hurt. Neither do they go in, nor do they allow others to go in. (In a way this anti-religion stance is an admonition for all of us to be true Christians, loving and welcoming, brining about the Kingdom of God, and not self-righteous “gargoyles.”)

So, I don’t really have problems with the films, and they do touch on important points, especially pointing to Christianity as the one correct religion with the truth, esp the 1st film.

 

[Servant19]

Incidentally, if you’re going to judge our members, why not be fair and assess all of us?

Don’t forget about the Mother Theresas and Maximilian Kolbes that also belong to our Church?

I haven’t heard of any Bahais who have given their life for a complete stranger out of love.

Hello there sister PR

Firstly there are thousands upon thousands of Baha’is who have given up their lives for a complete stranger out of love. Please browse through “Memorials of the Faithful” by Abdu’l-Baha for a few examples

Secondly, I would never sit back here staring at the flaws of Catholics thinking that my fellow Baha’is (ESPECIALLY myself!!!) are flawless. That is not my intention and never will be, heaven forbid.

What I am trying to convey is the "power of the collective", a system of enabling all to fulfill their human potential, compared to the “power of the individual” which has been the focus of religion for thousands of years.

There is a big difference and I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what this means to you, or other brothers and sisters in this thread

God bless

.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Hello there sister PR

Firstly there are thousands upon thousands of Baha’is who have given up their lives for a complete stranger out of love. Please browse through “Memorials of the Faithful” by Abdu’l-Baha for a few examples
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Well those are Babis and Baha’is martyred for their faith. And the Baha’i martyrs have incredibly beautiful and compelling stories.

I think PRMerger is looking for Baha’is who have given up their lives for strangers, such as Catholics hiding Jews during the Holocaust who were killed by the Nazis because of their heroism.

Because of the Baha’i teachings on the Oneness of Humanity which were completely at variance with the Nazi philosophy of racial supremacy, the institutions of the Baha’i Faith were outlawed and disbanded in Germany and the occupied countries during the Nazi period. The number of Baha’is in Germany at that time was very small.

There were many millions of Catholics in Germany during the same period, and thousands of Catholic Churches and related organizations. Many of them behaved heroically, risking and sometimes giving their lives to protect the Jews and others targeted for extermination by the Nazis.

 

[Vouthon]

Many of them behaved heroically, risking and sometimes giving their lives to protect the Jews and others targeted for extermination by the Nazis.

Although not in Germany, there was a very heroic Baha’i of Polish extraction named Lidia Zamenhof, the daughter of the man who created the artificial language Esperanto, who was murdered in Treblinka Concentration Camp:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidia_Zamenhof

Wikipedia also has an excellent article on the numerous Catholics who resisted Nazism:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_resistance_to_Nazi_Germany

In March 1937, when the “German Christians”, a denomination in Nazi Germany, rejected the Old Testament as a result of its submission to the state sanctioned anti-Semitic ideology; the pope of that time, Pius XI, called for an encyclical to be written in German (rather than the standard Latin) called Mitt brennender Sorge (With Burning Grief). It was secretly smuggled into Germany and read from every pulpit in Catholic Churches throughout the Reich. As well as condemning Nazi racial theory and totalitarianism, it defended the irreplaceable dignity and incomparable beauty of the Old Testament as a work of divine revelation that was essential to Christianity. Carlo Falconi described it as "the first great official public document to dare to confront and criticize Nazism".

Here is a link to it on the Vatican website:

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_en.html

A quotation from it:

“…None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are ‘as a drop of a bucket’ …Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or of the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community – however necessary and honorable be their function of worldly things – whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds…”

- Pope Pius XI, Mit Brennender Sorge (With Burning Grief, Encyclical condemning National Socialism in Germany), 1937

Incidentally the two most famous resistors of the Third Reich from Germany, Colonel Stauffenberg and Oskar Schindler, were both Catholics. The White Rose Student Resistance Group likewise was inspired by the protests of Blessed Archbishop Clemens Von Galen against the Euthanasia program to mass murder the disabled and mentally ill in 1941 and the was centred around the anti-Nazi publishing house of Carl Murth. One member of the group, Willi Graf, was a devout Catholic while Sophie and Hans Scholl intended to convert to Catholicism before their deaths. They had been reading Blessed Cardinal Newman’s teachings on the primacy of conscience when the White Rose was formed.

The entire German Catholic episcopate had opposed vocally the Nazi euthanasia program:

“…For years a war has raged in our Fatherland against Christianity and the Church, and has never been conducted with such bitterness. Repeatedly the German bishops have asked the Reich Government to discontinue this fatal struggle; but unfortunately our appeals and our endeavours were without success…We demand juridical proof of all sentences and release of all fellow citizens who have been deprived of their liberty without proof…Every man has the natural right to life and the goods essential for living. The living God, the Creator of all life, is sole master over life and death. With deep horror Christian Germans have learned that, by order of the State authorities, numerous insane persons, entrusted to asylums and institutions, were destroyed as so-called “unproductive citizens.” At present a large-scale campaign is being made for the killing of incurables through a film recommended by the authorities and designed to calm the conscience through appeals to pity. We German Bishops shall not cease to protest against the killing of innocent persons. Nobody’s life is safe unless the Commandment, “Thou shalt not kill,” is observed…”

***— German Bishops’ Pastoral Letter of 22 March 1942 ***

A year later Pope Pius XII published an encyclical condemning the same policy:

“…For as the Apostle with good reason admonishes us: “Those that seem the more feeble members of the Body are more necessary; and those that we think the less honorable members of the Body, we surround with more abundant honour.” Conscious of the obligations of Our high office We deem it necessary to reiterate this grave statement today, when to Our profound grief We see at times the deformed, the insane, and those suffering from hereditary disease deprived of their lives, as though they were a useless burden to Society; and this procedure is hailed by some as a manifestation of human progress, and as something that is entirely in accordance with the common good. Yet who that is possessed of sound judgment does not recognize that this not only violates the natural and the divine law written in the heart of every man, but that it outrages the noblest instincts of humanity? The blood of these unfortunate victims who are all the dearer to our Redeemer because they are deserving of greater pity, “cries to God from the earth.”…”

***— Venerable Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi, (1943), encyclical ***

 

[PJM]

=Servant19;12046290]Thank you sister. I think you will find that those incidences that Sochi and daler were referring to that warranted a religion to be reformed were conducted by those claiming to believing in the bodily resurrection of Jesus.

You may also find that many of those who were oppressed (as per daler and Sochis experiences) are even today suffering from the oppression and it’s traumas and scars.

There are then a series of communities who do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus who are providing spiritual solace and healing to those oppressed populations.

So what’s your thoughts on the necessity for this teaching to be true or false for resolving the problems which raised the subject of “reform” in the first place?

WHICH IS NICE ONLY IF HEAVEN AND HELL DON’T EXIST:shrug:

BUT THEY DO

God Bless you, and I don’t think the FORUM permits advocating different faiths?

.

 

[PRmerger]

Hello there sister PR

Firstly there are thousands upon thousands of Baha’is who have given up their lives for a complete stranger out of love. Please browse through “Memorials of the Faithful” by Abdu’l-Baha for a few examples

I think that it wouldn’t be inappropriate to posit that perhaps these thousands upon thousands of Bahais who have given up their lives did so only in a metaphorical or symbolic way?

Not truly a physical giving up of one’s life.

Now, I mean no disrespect to their memory, but I trust that, given the Bahai position that our Lord and Savior’s resurrection was not truly a physical one, I can’t see how any Bahai would find it disrespectful that I would suggest that the thousands upon thousands of Bahais who have given up their lives have done so only metaphorically, but not physically.

 

[Servant19]

I think that it wouldn’t be inappropriate to posit that perhaps these thousands upon thousands of Bahais who have given up their lives did so only in a metaphorical or symbolic way?

Not truly a physical giving up of one’s life.

Now, I mean no disrespect to their memory, but I trust that, given the Bahai position that our Lord and Savior’s resurrection was not truly a physical one, I can’t see how any Bahai would find it disrespectful that I would suggest that the thousands upon thousands of Bahais who have given up their lives have done so only metaphorically, but not physically.

I would ask you to thereby provide some evidence for your assertions dear sister PR

Do you have any evidence to say that the several official government documentations (as well as the hundreds of private documentations) of the incidences in Nayriz, Zanjan, Tabarsi, Tehran and Mazindaran (to name a few) were all symbolic documents? Or contained symbolic language?

I think there is plenty of evidence to indicate symbolic language in the Bible, and I think that Paul’s Letters support a spiritual resurrection more than a physical one. Paul’s Letters coming before the Gospels is an indication of where the Truth may reside

.

 

[PRmerger]

I would ask you to thereby provide some evidence for your assertions dear sister PR

Do you have any evidence to say that the several official government documentations (as well as the hundreds of private documentations) of the incidences in Nayriz, Zanjan, Tabarsi, Tehran and Mazindaran (to name a few) were all symbolic documents? Or contained symbolic language?

I think there is plenty of evidence to indicate symbolic language in the Bible, and I think that Paul’s Letters support a spiritual resurrection more than a physical one. Paul’s Letters coming before the Gospels is an indication of where the Truth may reside

.

My proof is that the language used in Bahai correspondence is quite flowery, and symbolic.

Of course, no one is saying that the documents are symbolic. I am sure that there are real, actual, physically present papers which talk about these incidents.

But the fact that the Bahai faith speaks in symbolic terms about a multitude of things is evidence of the symbolic sacrifices made by these honorable men and women being a sign of metaphorical love of neighbor.