Only one girl survived the Yemenia airplane crash!

[Bear_Claw]

npatrol:If you had answered honestly you may have had some credibility in your argument…but sadly, you just lost what little you had, my friend. If you had given even a portion of your time reading the material you said you did by your “exhaustive” research on God’s existence, you could also be a Canon Lawyer by now.:yukonjoe:
But, by all means, keep at it…you’ll discover the Way, on your search for Truth….He’s only a* heartbeat* away. God bless you!

What? You didn’t ask if I read everything they ever wrote, word for word. You asked if I ever read them…like asking if you ever read Shakespeare. Usually people don’t imply reading the collective volumes of Shakespeare’s works when they pose the question. Maybe be more specific in your questions next time and you’ll get a more specific answer.

Anyway, if that’s how you want to end it, by calling into question how “up to date” I am with catholic writings, sure, that’s fine, I’ll see you around.
I guess my points remain unrefuted then.
On that note I’m heading home now…see ya around.

 

[Gabriella_San_S]

Early church fathers build their writings from the bible, and hearsay.
. Not real proof you know.

And Wiki is just a real quick an easy place to start your research. It gives you a basic foundation of the idea on which to build proper research in the field.

FYI…Most of the prominent Early Church Fathers lived before the New Testament of the Bible was compiled(Council of Hippo 393 AD) and a good number of them lived as hermits in the desert,so the chance of “hearsay” was slim to none.
If you want a** solid** foundation to build proper research on, then I would suggest you go to an authentic Catholic Web site, like EWTN, or Catholics United for the Faith, etc. or you can “Ask an Apologist”/Theologian right here on CAF! Take care.

 

[Bear_Claw]

FYI…Most of the prominent Early Church Fathers lived before the New Testament of the Bible was compiled(Council of Hippo 393 AD) and a good number of them lived as hermits in the desert,so the chance of “hearsay” was slim to none.

Okay, 2 things wrong here:

First, it reads like you are implying that the old Testament is not part of the Bible.
And
Second, and perhaps the most important point, before the bible was complied, all that they had was hearsay…word of mouth, or how you would understand it, sacred tradition.

Oh, which ones were hermits? Here is a list of the most prominent ones, and most of them seemed to be either monks or apologists and preachers, and a few lecturers thrown in.

St. Athanasius c. 296
Bishop of Alexandria

St. Augustine of Hippo; Aurelius Augustine; “The Doctor of Grace” 354
Bishop of Hippo, theologian

Basil the Great c.330
Cappadocian father, monk, Bishop of Caesarea

St. Clement of Alexandria c. 150 theologian; professor

St. Clement of Rome; Clement I; Pope St. Clement unknown Bishop of Rome

Gregory of Nazianzus 329/30
Cappadocian father, monk, preacher

Gregory of Nyssa c. 330
Cappadocian father, Bishop of Nyssa, monk, preacher, theologian Ignatius of Antioch unknown Bishop of Antioch

Irenaeus of Lyons c. 140
Bishop of Lyons

Jerome c. 342
scholar, theologian

Justin Martyr c. 100
apologist, philosopher

Origen of Alexandria;
Origenes Adamantius apologist, theologian, teacher

Tertullian 160
theologian, apologist

Bye, have a good night

 

[thirdn6]

If evolution is true to some minor species… so be it. God allowed it that way. He is still the master Designer of everything. All of the elements of matter that you can see with your limited perception is created. Actually, seen or unseen, He created them. Not a single thing, animate or inanimate, came out of nothing. The recent discoveries in physical and bio-sciences will only prove one thing - the beauty of a creation and the power of the Almighty who created them who is, as we know, the Alpha and Omega…

I don’t rely on science alone to build my faith. I believe also in historical facts and revelations.
That’s why I profess my Catholic faith. That I firmly believe in Jesus Christ who lived (a fact), died (a fact), and resurrected (a fact) because like He said - He is the author of life!

God bless.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

No, it’s not “the big bang did it”. Have you heard of Abiogenesis? That’s the theory being worked on right now. All the items necessary to create life is and was present on earth around the time life started on earth. Heck, they even found the building blocks for life on a deep space comet that entered our solar system. The building blocks are abundant out there. Enzymes, Proteins, etc. The earth was violent, volcanoes, lighting outbursts, radiation from the sun, whatever…1+1 only has to equal 2 once and life started…

Why do you even mention abiogenesis if it isn’t even proven true yet, Why do you even mention elements outside of space if I am just going to re direct you to the original question. Where did all of this come from? What caused the original big bang, what made time, space, energy exist?

“The earth was violent, volcanoes, lighting outbursts, radiation from the sun, whatever…1+1 only has to equal 2 once and life started.”

Its more complex then that. Any ID can crush any atheist by describing the complexity of evolution happening by chance. Whether or not Natural Selection is part of your theory, the odds of life evolving and how it evolved is incredibly beyond measures. Not only is it mathematically impossible for life to evolve BY CHANCE, but nature itself looks designed.

But, just because science hasn’t reached a solid conclusion, doesn’t mean that you automatically have to insert god into the blank space and then claim that it’s a fact. We can claim that we don’t know because the theories out there on how life originated are still in the early stages. We are not people of blind faith.
It’s a big question you know…

A question: When did we ever claim our faith is fact? Would it even be faith anymore? No…

When did Jesus Christ in the Bible ever tell us about “Knowing” God…He didn’t, Jesus ALWAYS recommended to have FAITH. He even said for those who actually “saw” miracles are going to remain believing rather having knowledge about the mystery of God. So in this case, I will admit it is our theory vs. your theory and our theory just happens to make more sense. Instead of saying something popped out from nothing, its more logical to say an Intelligent Designer…did…it.

In so many words; Praise the God of Israel!

To come to this conclusion you just have to use human logic.

I’d rather spend the time researching it and find a proven theory than just blindly say “goddidit”. It’s far more unrealistic to insert god into every (as yet) unknown and unexplained question. It’s called the “God of the gaps” argument, and it’s pretty weak. And, of course, with each scientific breakthrough your god of the gaps become smaller and smaller…

What scientific breakthrough makes our theory of God smaller and smaller. Be specific, don’t just say random things if you can’t prove it. If we really want to talk science then we can. Just open a new thread and I’m pretty sure we Catholics did enough research to show that all the scientific data we gather POINTS to an Intelligent Designer, rather by stating nature itself is the cause of random evolution.

Come back when you can find plausible answers and not just blindly claim “goddidit” without a shred of proof. You mention that you debated an atheist…with that god of the gaps theory, I’m sure it was not a debate, he most probably, like me, saw that your arguments don’t hold any water.

I will reply to your miracle comment later, then you will see we have more schreds of proof then you think.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

And she is only 13!!!, she can barely swim!!!, and non of the other 152 have survived!!!.

wow, do you think God wants to make something out of this girl which would benefit the human beings…

Isn’t this incident by itself proves the existence of God (for the atheists on this forum).

cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/07/01/yemen.plane.survivor/

All an atheist has to do is say “151 people didn’t survive.” Where was your God for them?

 

[Sam_777]

All an atheist has to do is say “151 people didn’t survive.” Where was your God for them?

Why do you think death is a bad thing !!!

Maybe God have different path for them, maybe He would let them stay less time in purgatory…

And at the end we can’t blame God for that crash, He didn’t engineer the plane and He is not the one who failed to maintain it …

 

[Gabriella_San_S]

Oh, which ones were hermits? Here is a list of the most prominent ones, and most of them seemed to be either monks or apologists and preachers, and a few lecturers thrown in.

St. Athanasius c. 296
Bishop of Alexandria

St. Augustine of Hippo; Aurelius Augustine; “The Doctor of Grace” 354
Bishop of Hippo, theologian

Basil the Great c.330
Cappadocian father, monk, Bishop of Caesarea

St. Clement of Alexandria c. 150 theologian; professor

St. Clement of Rome; Clement I; Pope St. Clement unknown Bishop of Rome

Gregory of Nazianzus 329/30
Cappadocian father, monk, preacher

Gregory of Nyssa c. 330
Cappadocian father, Bishop of Nyssa, monk, preacher, theologian Ignatius of Antioch unknown Bishop of Antioch

Irenaeus of Lyons c. 140
Bishop of Lyons

Jerome c. 342
scholar, theologian

Justin Martyr c. 100
apologist, philosopher

Origen of Alexandria;
Origenes Adamantius apologist, theologian, teacher

Tertullian 160
theologian, apologist

You’re getting good at that “cut and paste” business If you really want to know which ones lived an ascetic life* before * going on to become important figures in the Church, (doctors, theologians, apologists etc.) You can take the easy route and google “the desert fathers”. You’ll find at least four, Athanasius of Alexandria; John Chrysostom; John Cassian and Augustine of Hippo.
And the Bible as we know it today* does *include both Old and New Testaments, but that was not the case at the time of these ancient mystical writers, as you suggested.
But the research will help. Peace.

 

[Bear_Claw]

Benjamin8o8:
Your whole post says “I don’t know so it mustabeengod”

We say “I don’t know and we’re working on it”

 

[Bear_Claw]

You’re getting good at that “cut and paste” business

Cheap shot and not so classy…

If you really want to know which ones lived an ascetic life* before * going on to become important figures in the Church, (doctors, theologians, apologists etc.) You can take the easy route and google “the desert fathers”.

What does that have to do with anything though? You argued that they were hermits and thus not exposed to any literature or outside influences…now you are saying that they were hermits before? they were still all part of some community and had access and exposure to all literature and people…
You are talking in circles here my dear…

 

[Bear_Claw]

Wiki is false because* anyone* can go in there and change info. Not all of it is valid and most of it can be quite misleading.

Exactly right, that’s why I said you use it as a starting block to get some basic foundations and then go and research that. Basically you have to research Wiki, finding out what it true and what is not, but it’s a good concise starting point to direct your research…just like any google search would be. Get some hits on your search string and go from there.

 

[Bear_Claw]

Oh, for the record guys, I’m not going to be very active for the next two or so days, the president of the company is coming to our office and we all have to be busy bees

That’s why I came on here early to make post a few before “The Man” arrives.

See ya in a few

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Your whole post says “I don’t know so it mustabeengod”

We say “I don’t know and we’re working on it”

you`re using silly smily faces to hide your pwnage fact…lol just kidding. (I had to say it).

Youre stating that were working on it. How in the world do you possibly suggest a better theory then God would fill in the huge gap. Let us not forget how much Christinaity contributed to science. Everything science revolves around is basically proof of an inteligent designer. From the process of evolution to the outlook of nature. How things work, and how things rely on each other. Its a perfect never ending circle. dont believe me but science is more of a religious guide for us then it is for atheists, I challenge you to open a thread regarding God and science. We can talk about everything regarding science research. Let us not exclude the fact that even the basic big bang theory came from a religious clergy...a Catholic priest. So I really dont understand why people think science is a perfect place to start to refute the theory of God. The more we learn from science the closer to God it should bring us. It is just common sense.

You still didn`t anser some of my questions…

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Cheap shot and not so classy…

What does that have to do with anything though? You argued that they were hermits and thus not exposed to any literature or outside influences…now you are saying that they were hermits before? they were still all part of some community and had access and exposure to all literature and people…
You are talking in circles here my dear…

I thought the early Church fathers came before the New Testement. If that is the case, then the only influence they had was the Old Testement and the teachings of Jesus Christ, Either personally from Him or His followers. After all, this is what Jesus Christ came for, to spread the good news. It is our decision if we want to hear it or not.

Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Really? All I see is nature. To try to inject god into a naturally evolved ecosystem is overcomplicating things tremendously and has nothing to do with logic or scientific theory. So, when you hear a voice speaking to you, when you pray to an invisible man, how is this scientific? How is this simplifying anything. It’s not scientific, it’s not proven. It’s a bunch of unfounded, unproven claims that you hear voices…but specifically the creator of the universe’s voice. Yeah, okay.
Intelligent design is just that “goddidit” theory that I spoke about in my previous thread. When you don’t know the answer you automatically inject god into that gap.
It’s not a good argument…

“To try to inject god into a naturally evolved ecosystem is overcomplicating things tremendously and has nothing to do with logic or scientific theory”
When we see an automobile and observe all the pieces in it. What do we see? Can’t we agree that a designer is behind this? Whether or not it can scientifically be proven that someone build this care, it is just pure logic. Same thing with the universe and Nature itself. You say all you see is nature. Well then it is no wonder you’re an atheist. If that is all you see, a bunch of life that you don’t know how evolved through chance then I’m guessing you have no personal desire to see if there is a God or not. If that is the case, no religious person or a logical scientist can help you out.

Creation is most certainly not random. Natural selection moves in a very specific process to keep the best traits and remove the worst ones. Our facilities are used to observe nature and understand how it works. The problem comes in when people who don’t understand a particular faceted of nature, they automatically ascribe it to this creator guy, just because at least it’s an answer where otherwise they would have to say we don’t know yet…and that obviously frighten them…

Natural selection might be a good theory to prove how life evolved easier the way it did. But regardless of your theory you still have to face the odds. We’re dealing with billions and billions of cells evolving at the right time and at the right place. Let us also not forget how circular nature is, how things rely on each other. The fact we have honey and bees, man and woman, the odds are against you atheists. Any mathematicians would tell you regardless of your natural selection theory, the odds are still there. If you want I can do easy research to give you an actual number.

How can I get to know someone that does not exist?.

You can`t.

I tried that many times…he’s just not there, trust me…

I dont want to be wise about this, so dont mind me asking, but how did you ask and what did you expect? I will take your responce very seriously, please let me know what you did to look for God.

really, and you know this how?.

Through a Holy Book that has been written by 40 different authos (if not more) and who predicted the coming of the Massiah. It all happened in this Book.

May you have the faith and trust to believe! Thanks for seeking answers on CAF.Thanks. I know your post was sincere and heartfelt, and for that, thanks.

 

[Gabriella_San_S]

When we see an automobile and observe all the pieces in it. What do we see? Can’t we agree that a designer is behind this? Whether or not it can scientifically be proven that someone build this care, it is just pure logic. Same thing with the universe and Nature itself. You say all you see is nature. Well then it is no wonder you’re an atheist. If that is all you see, a bunch of life that you don’t know how evolved through chance then I’m guessing you have no personal desire to see if there is a God or not. If that is the case, no religious person or a logical scientist can help you out.

Natural selection might be a good theory to prove how life evolved easier the way it did. But regardless of your theory you still have to face the odds. We’re dealing with billions and billions of cells evolving at the right time and at the right place. Let us also not forget how circular nature is, how things rely on each other. The fact we have honey and bees, man and woman, the odds are against you atheists. Any mathematicians would tell you regardless of your natural selection theory, the odds are still there. If you want I can do easy research to give you an actual number.

I dont want to be wise about this, so dont mind me asking, but how did you ask and what did you expect? I will take your response very seriously, please let me know what you did to look for God.

You are wise and gifted, friend! Our Bear is very friendly, too. He is seeking with a sincere heart, though misguided, his “seeking” speaks of his sincerity. I trust God will reveal Himself to him soon…thank you for sharing your understanding. God bless you!

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Gabriella_San_S:
You are wise and gifted, friend! Our Bear is very friendly, too. He is seeking with a sincere heart, though misguided, his “seeking” speaks of his sincerity. I trust God will reveal Himself to him soon…thank you for sharing your understanding. God bless you!

Thank you vey much for your nice comments my brother. I do agree that our friend Bear is quite friendly. He just needs to put his claw down and know the sweet Myetery of God is right before His eyes.

I hope God will reveal to him as well, we must have faith.

God bless to you and peace to your whole family

 

[Benjamin8o8]

First, when you say that we ”know” that the miracles actually happened, how do you know? Because someone told you? Has it been scientifically proven? My guess to that answer would be no, and if I’m wrong, please provide proof.

We don’t rely on internet articles my brother; we Catholics have enough proof to support our Sings from Above. Let me start of with some scientific proof regarding an Eucharistic Miracle. If you’re curious which Miracle I’m specifically talking about, it is Lanciano.

“On March 4, 1971, in the church of the Miracle, before a large audience of scholars, Prof. Linoli made public the results of his analysis. The oral presentation was accompanied by abundant photographic documentation. Here is a summary of his finding:”

1. The Blood of the Eucharistic Miracle is real blood and the Flesh is real flesh.
2. The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue from a heart (myocardium).
3. The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.
4. The Blood type is identical in the Blood and in the Flesh and this very probably indicates that the source is a single person, although there remains a possibility they could have come from two different persons with identical blood type.
5. In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic composition of fresh, normal blood.
6. In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium in reduced quantity, whereas calcium was found in larger quantity.

The well-known scientist, enlarging on these conclusions, affirmed that-

a) for the Flesh, origin by anatomic dissection from an existing human heart is impossible;
b) no chemical process of preservation was ever employed to conserve the Flesh and the Blood;
c) and, therefore, the preservation of the proteins and the minerals in the Flesh and the Blood is absolutely exceptional, given their exposure to atmospheric and biological agents of decomposition.

The scientific investigation of Prof. Linoli, reported in all the most important medical journals, as well as in a book published by the Sanctuary, has obtained and continues to obtain wide support within the scientific community, nationally and internationally.

"…The aforementioned scientists of the UN have stated categorically that the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano is and will remain a “unique case” scientifically unexplainable. The conclusion is hardly a surprise, given the scientific “indemonstrability” of the corresponding “mystery”.

Science has its limit my dear friend, God dosen`t.

Second, how about the power of the mind. Have you seen someone under hypnosis getting burn scars when you touch a pen to their arm, telling them it’s a hot poker?

No, but I am not surprised by the power of the mind. This is only telling me how strong faith really is. If you really want to believe something, God will allow it to be real in your world whether what you believe is The Truth or not. It’s your body, your mind, your decision…

Third, you mention Lourdes and Fatima.
The whole Medical wing of Lourdes have only yielded 66 “cures”. And these cures are only labeled as such because science can’t explain it yet. Note I say yet. The power of the mind is a proven, very powerful thing.

Lourdes has been around for a long time, and science still can’t explain none of these 66 cases? Why would you put your soul at stake for a few men in white robes? It looks to me that you want solid evidence to a point where you can’t say no to God, but like I said before, God will give you sufficient proof to believe in Him, hence the term believe. This earthly trial we’re facing lasts only in this earth, everyday you make a choice. You either search for God with a humble heart, or you reject Him. He gave us enough evidence, but the “choice” still remains in our hearts. It’s all about free will.

And even if the miracles were real, what ration is that? Estimations show around 200 mil people visiting Lourdes since 1860. That’s a cure rate of 0.00000033% at the worlds “hottest hotspot” of miracle cures?

This is what another atheist said as well on my thread…

Look, the Catholic Church is not claiming 66 miracles happened in all, they are just stating that 66 were examined by the Church. All of those miracles are real and they remain unexplained. But the fact of the matter is miracles happen all the time in Lourdes, and I literally mean all the time. The Church just decided to examine a few. Now it obviously can examine more…much more, but what is the point? The Church is not here on earth to convince us that its the Truth, like I said, God has already given sufficient proof that it is, it all comes down to you. You choose what you want to believe in. Either accept the Church or reject it. If you reject it, you have no excuse why you did so. We already gave you miracles your men in white robes can’t explain…but it all boils down to the living soul

Are you willing to concede that the power of suggestion and the mind has nothing to do with this? No, wait don’t answer, I’m going to guess that you are willing to do that. Blind faith and all, and that’s ok.

You`re willing to compare a burned scar with cured miracles. That is too far of a stretch, I guess the power of the mind is so powerful after all when you are able to convince yourself that nothing supernatural happened in Lourdes.

If science can’t explain it, it must be a mysterious mind power technique…sigh excuses after excuses.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Let’s take St. Bernadette, the best known case, als fitting because we are talking about Lourdes.
Even the doctors that were present at her first exhumation swore that there was partial mummification of the corpse. It was described as shriveled, the lower part was black, the nose was dilated and shrunken, and the body sounded like cardboard when struck.
At the third exhumation in 1925, the doctors spoke about the blackish face and the sunken eyes and nose that would make an unpleasant impression on the public, so the decision was made to display the corpse with a wax mask. Did you even know that?..

So wax mask will do the job? Is that what your insisting, that a wax mask will do this to a person whos been dead since 1879)

http://www.holysouls.com/bernadette1.jpg

Another qestion: The scientist you were talking about, did they conclude that nothing supernatural or mysterious happened. As far as I can remember this is another case of an unexplained event. Her body might not be fully incoruptible but the fact she has been intact after so many years is enough for me to be Catholic. There is no other examples of Saint. Bernadette anywhere in the world. It comes to no suprise the Lourdes is one of the the largest pilgrimages in the world.

As far as wax goes I have heard the reson they added wax in the first place was due to the candles which resulted the skin to turn black with soot and dust. Thats why they now put a “thin” spray of wax on any exposed features",its just to keep them clean. Saint. Bernadette is a incourtiple body like no other.

You also forgot to mention Fatima, what are your thoughts on that. 10 000 people experiences mass hysteria even though some of them were atheists in a time that the media was against the church? What`s your opinion of that incident?

 

[Gabriella_San_S]

Thank you very much for your nice comments my brother.

God bless you and peace to your whole family

I’m your*** sister***, Benjamin…and blessings of peace to you and your whole family!