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tonyrey
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Riddled with errors from start to finish!
Only if you don’t realise that Hell is chosen and self-inflicted by those goal is absolute independence - a very tempting prospect indeed.
Untrue because we make our final decision when we die.
Untrue because those who are in Hell know the precise consequences of their choice and are fully prepared to pay the price for having everything their own way - within their limited domain. Their egoism is not blind but clear-sighted and vicious.
Those who are in Hell understand exactly what they are doing and are fully prepared to pay the price for having everything their own way.
Nonsense! When we die everyone knows what it means to pay the price for having everything our own way.
Hell is not a place but a state of self-imposed isolation.
Nonsense! It suffices to know the consequences of absolute independence.
Nonsense! It suffices to know the consequences of choosing to live for - and - love others rather than choosing to live for - and - love oneself.
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LegoGE1947
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There are several Catholic philosophers who might not agree, such as Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, GK Chesterton, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, etc.
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sedonaman
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The title reminds me of Victor Klemper who wrote, I Will Bear Witness: A Diary of the Nazi Years 1933-1941 in which he blamed not the ordinary Germans but the intellectuals *. Given a future opportunity to mete out punishment after a similar Holocaust was all over, he wrote the following:
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TheTrueCentrist
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A reasonable critique of the retributivist position, which they considered first. However, perhaps you stopped reading before you got to their discussion of the second defense, which is much more Catholic:
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tonyrey
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I read the article to the end and found nothing more of substance. Perhaps you will enlighten me…
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TheTrueCentrist
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Your only major criticisms of their consideration of the second defense were these:
Hell is often thought of as a place because it helps us conceptually. Their arguments do not rest on it actually being a physical place, so you are essentially nitpicking. You might as well say that Dante’s writings were worthless for the same reasoning.
You have come up with a few other things that might be sufficient, but is it possible for anyone but a philosopher to truly understand those consequences?
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OrdinaryMelkite
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In the comments section they have a link to a supposedly “early Orthodox Church” interpretation of the “Hell problem” which I found interesting. Is that really the case that the ealry Orthodox really thought about it this way???
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OrdinaryMelkite
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sw85
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I am always amazed that everyone sees the “problem of evil” and the “problem of Hell” as problems at all, much less as the slamdunks for atheism that everyone seems to think they are. Virtually no one in the world thought these things were problems until about five seconds ago, so clearly the “problem” is that the people who think there’s a “problem” there are ignorant of the relevant theology – which is typically the case. Remarkable hubris, really, for some ignorant simpleton to reflect on eternity for 15 minutes and then come to the conclusion that his half-assed musings are worth more than the billions of hours of prayerful contemplation of a million saints, martyrs, and doctors of the church for whom this “problem” was non-existent.
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tonyrey
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You are very kind.Good post and response, as always, Tony.
My excuse is that I’ve specialised in Hell for a long time but I hope I don’t finish up by understanding it at close quarters!
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LegoGE1947
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I hope so too.You are very kind.
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tonyrey
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On the contrary. Even though their arguments don’t rest on it the notion of Hell as a place gives the impression it is a crude image because the supernatural realm is beyond space and time.
Dante’s masterpiece was more allegorical than logical, as one would expect with an epic poem where images are essential whereas in philosophy they are usually an unnecessary distraction.
What is difficult to understand? Absolute independence? Having everything your own way? Choosing to live for yourself rather than others?
“self-imposed isolation” may not be so obvious when taken in isolation
I know you like the idea of philosophers going to Hellbut they don’t produce a plausible argument. (“they” doesn’t refer to philosophers of course!)
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tonyrey
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My obvious pride in being a specialist could well be my downfall. I’ve noticed I tend to react too fiercely to critics of Christianity by poking fun at their arguments. In future cold logic must be my aim - with compassion of course.
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