Only priest ordained for Archdiocese of New York this year - his 1st. Mass is EF Mass

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But JR, is your observation being put into practice? This is not a debate about a superior form or such as we agree that liturgy in any form, spoken with complete reverence and education, is equal. But has the OF, in the average parish, bettered people’s certainty of graces received and/or bettered they’re understanding of Mass? Basically, did it do what sacrosanctum concilium intended?
I would say that it is. But it is definitely done better in some places than in others. In the USA the reform of the liturgy has been much difficult than in most countries. I believe that part of it has to do with out culture.

As Americans we tend to be hypersensitive when our culture and our actions are criticized. But the truth is that Americans have made a fair share of contribution to evil in the world. I sometimes wonder if our share may be the worse kind of evil, because it’s covert rather than overt.

There are three evils in the modern world that are very rooted in American culture and have affected the life of people of faith in the USA, which then affects the life of worship. The first is intellectual arrogance. We’ve created a mythos around this notion that we are intelligent, thinking and resourceful people. It was a political ploy used by the powers to be to keep the nation psychologically strong during the Cold War. There is nothing more terrifying than an enemy whom you can’t see, yet may attack you at any moment. The countermeasure that was used was to stimulate a false sense of self-reliance.

This certainly affected how we did many things after WW II, including how we implemented the reforms of the liturgy. Americans did not work with the Church. We took the guidelines given to us by the Church, which were deliberately in abstract language in the hope that intelligent people from around the world would work together to develop a liturgical paradigm that would meet the needs of Catholics in the 20th century while preserving the different traditions of worship.

We have to remember. SC was not just for the Latin Church. It was for the universal Church. All liturgy was to be looked at and revised with great care. The document does not limit the mandate to the Latin Church and the Roman Rite. We have seen some reforms in the other Churches, but they have been very restrained and well thought out. It’s also true that the people who make up the other Catholic Churches have a history of caution. They have been burnt by many events and movements in history. They proceed cautiously, whereas Americans tend to throw caution to the wind. This is that false sense of competency that I’m talking about. It certainly shows no only in how we messed up the liturgy, but how we messed up our education system, economy, family life and social institutions.

We have to admit it. The United States went through an intellectual dark night during the second half of the 20the century. This was not the case in the developing nations. In those nations, the liturgical reform is working closer to the ideal that was intended. We have to understand and accept that when something is initiated it’s not going to be perfect from the starting gate. We’re human beings. There are contingencies that we do not anticipate. When those happen, we have to deal with them. But in the USA there was an absence of a common starting gate. As a result, the mistakes are harder to correct, because they’re not always the same as has been the case in the developing nations. They have everyone doing the same thing at the same time. Where there is a weakness in the paradigm, it shows up everywhere. You’re not putting out isolated brush fires. You can look at the liturgy and say, “This works and this does not. It was a good idea, but it did not have the desired result.” You can also look and see what does work and some of what works was not planned. They’re small consolations that the Spirit gives us.

To implement SC we must give up our self-reliance and work as a Church and with those who came before us as well as those who are present now. No individual and no generation ever has all the answers. This false sense of competency and self-reliance is divisive; therefore, it’s evil. We were created to rely on God and each other. Excellence and competency were to be achieved as a body, not individuals with “bright” ideas.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
One note. Father was the only diocesan priest ordained for the Archdiocese.

There were 35 priests ordained in NY for the different religious communities that live and serve in NY.

Not to despair. NY is producing more priests than many other dioceses, not to the diocese that’s all.

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
thank you for that. I saw the title of the thread while drinking my morning coffee and nearly did a spit take. “One?!” Haha glad there are more. An of course he looks awesome in his EF preistly vestments.
 
thank you for that. I saw the title of the thread while drinking my morning coffee and nearly did a spit take. “One?!” Haha glad there are more. An of course he looks awesome in his EF preistly vestments.
Dunwoodee trains priests for almost all of the religious communities in NY State. It has an excellent theology faculty. The Archdiocese of NY has a lot of competition from the religious communities and if truth be known, the young men are attracted the religious communities because they offer two things that no diocese can offer: a fraternity and freedom from parishes. No body minds working in parishes, but administrating them is quite another story. :eek:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
I would say that it is. But it is definitely done better in some places than in others. In the USA the reform of the liturgy has been much difficult than in most countries. I believe that part of it has to do with out culture.

As Americans we tend to be hypersensitive when our culture and our actions are criticized. But the truth is that Americans have made a fair share of contribution to evil in the world. I sometimes wonder if our share may be the worse kind of evil, because it’s covert rather than overt.
Br JR, you are spot on in your analysis. Much appreciated.

What you say regarding the U.S. can probably be applied to Europe as well. Their Church attendance started to decline in the 50’s. In the U.S. it appears that we were okay with the Latin, having preserved many Latin terms in courts, law, currency, public schools, etc. It seemed that once the I.C.E.L. was formed (in 1962), however, the decline in church attendance started to show. Of course, other factors were involved but seeing how Catholic schools were closing left and right at that time, it is hard for us not to blame the decay on VII. In areas like Asia and Africa, however, one can see the Mass reforms into their vernaculars worked much better, though in some areas (like Viet Nam) many Protestant elements seemed to have crept through as well.
 
Do you know what it is?

I assumed that we know what a “correct” implementation of Vatican II is. But really, I have no idea what that looks like.
When I was at Rise Up in Vancouver this past Christmas, I believe Fr. Raymond de Souza spoke about how one of the great things we saw in Bl. John Paul II was that he pointed us towards the correct interpretation of VII.

I am neither a Bl. John Paul II scholar nor a Vatican II scholar, so I can’t offer any answers for that though.
There are three evils in the modern world that are very rooted in American culture and have affected the life of people of faith in the USA, which then affects the life of worship. The first is intellectual arrogance. We’ve created a mythos around this notion that we are intelligent, thinking and resourceful people. It was a political ploy used by the powers to be to keep the nation psychologically strong during the Cold War. There is nothing more terrifying than an enemy whom you can’t see, yet may attack you at any moment. The countermeasure that was used was to stimulate a false sense of self-reliance.
Ah, so America really started to promote a very Kantian view of how things should be done (our reason makes us special). Or with the “we are thinking people” view, even a Cartesian view. Starting with those views, without grounding yourself in what is fundamentally True, can lead to bad policy and actions because you start to abandon what it means to be human, which is being a Child of God, which itself is an acknowledgment of our need for God and a rejection of complete self-reliance.

I’d say that that view is even older though, because Arthur Miller was already ridiculing these ideals in Death of a Salesman in 1949 (Miller was dragged before McCarthy’s HUAC for writing that). I think that for the powers that be to pick it up, it probably ran at least as an undercurrent throughout the culture beforehand.
To implement SC we must give up our self-reliance and work as a Church and with those who came before us as well as those who are present now. No individual and no generation ever has all the answers. This false sense of competency and self-reliance is divisive; therefore, it’s evil. We were created to rely on God and each other. Excellence and competency were to be achieved as a body, not individuals with “bright” ideas.
Ah yes, that idea that “I can fix anything if I just try hard enough” baloney that Hollywood has been feeding us for decades. We’ve been brought up to believe that relying on other people is “weakness”, to follow someone else is to be a “mindless sheeple”, and that not being able to be completely self-reliant makes you a “failure”.
 
To implement SC we must give up our self-reliance and work as a Church and with those who came before us as well as those who are present now. No individual and no generation ever has all the answers. This false sense of competency and self-reliance is divisive; therefore, it’s evil. We were created to rely on God and each other. Excellence and competency were to be achieved as a body, not individuals with “bright” ideas.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
This could have been today’s homily, on how Pentacost reversed Babel.

-Tim-
 
If I have ever posted anything to offend you, I apologize. I hope you can forgive me.
You have not, TimothyH. But if I have offended you, I apologize and likewise hope you can forgive me. Sometimes I enjoy argumentation too much… 🙂
  • PAX
 
Trying to prove a point. But apparently programming logic is forbidden since the post has been deleted. 🤷 Seems to happen once in a while (I think EcceAgnusDei had one of his deleted in this thread too. Irony of ironies, I believe it was in response to me. So I guess we’re even then ;))
I’m glad to hear that we’re both in the “deleted post” sub-set 😉
  • PAX
 
Trying to prove a point. But apparently programming logic is forbidden since the post has been deleted.
Not entirely. There might have been something else that someone else took exception to. Are you sure there wasn’t a bug in your program? Maybe try another language. :D:D
 
Not entirely. There might have been something else that someone else took exception to. Are you sure there wasn’t a bug in your program? Maybe try another language. :D:D
Well, I guess I’ll have to ask what the Traditionalist language is then if I want to make a good point. C? Basic? Fortran? COBOL? A big stack of punch-cards that I have to feed in individually? 😛
 
Well, I guess I’ll have to ask what the Traditionalist language is then if I want to make a good point. C? Basic? Fortran? COBOL? A big stack of punch-cards that I have to feed in individually? 😛
Definitely the punch cards.🙂
 
Well, I guess I’ll have to ask what the Traditionalist language is then if I want to make a good point. C? Basic? Fortran? COBOL? A big stack of punch-cards that I have to feed in individually? 😛
Assembler actually. 🙂 I don’t have a problem with your object-oriented languages, Smalltalk, java, C++, C#, etc. The binary computer only understands 1’s and 0’s anyway. My first program used nine transistors and that was after Vatican II. 🙂 But we digress.
 
And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming (pun intended), I hope we have the privilege of having father celebrate a traditional Latin Mass at our parish
 
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