Only ready to be a husband if ready to be celebate?

[TLDenmark]

Dear iluvmybabies

Ok if in the Bible it states that a man should not be alone, and therefore woman was created for the purpose of procreating, 2 becoming one, wouldn’t it make sense that since Jesus stated about the whole adultery and lust issue that even in your mind you are committing an adultery by lusting over someone, and the need for celebasy meaning, you will only love your spouse and not lust over anyone, for the rest of your life, then shouldn’t it be acceptable to assume that this means that pretty much in order for one to marry or be ready to “be a husband” then one must be ready to be celebate?!

And to be celebate doesn’t mean you have to be chastise it means you are willing to love and be there only for your spouse and not have lustful thoughts, which inturn are conceived to be sinfull ways of adultery towards any other human being, including your own spouse because lust is a sin but desire for your own spouse and love making of your own spouse is what Jesus and GOD intended man and woman to be; 2 souls becoming one and a life of celibacy!!

Well it does make sense then…Because if you are a man, with lustful thoughts but you decide you are in love with this woman-gf- eg, and you get married, but you check out another woman and you think “hey what she doesn’t know won’t hurt her,” or “hey I am not doing anything just checking her out!!” And this opens the doorway which causes lust, and as stated in the Bible lust is a sin, therefore causing you to commit adultery in your heart and mind against your wife…But it’s ok in your mind…Then one day you see your wife getting hit on by another man, and that gets your buttons burning and even though she is not responding to the other person, you are boiling up and ready to do something about it to that man or woman whomever is hitting on your wife and thoughts come to your head about your wife and this person, what if they do something or did something???..But technically you are the one whose committed adultery so why should this bother you?! So of course the whole celibacy is needed from both partners in order to avoid such situations of insecurity, and jealousy…If you didn’t lust over anyone at all and just dedicated your heart and soul to your spouse as GOD intended it to be, thus a life of celibacy, then your marriage will not have any trials such as these where you will feel guilty over something so insignificant as such…

So yeah a life of celibacy towards your spouse is definitely a must and an understanding of the wishes and teachings of Jesus against lust and towards a Holy Matrimony…

I understand a little better now…

Please anyone correct me if I am wrong!!

It looks like you are confusing chastity with celibacy. Everybody is called to chastity, that is true inside a marriage, in single life, in the priesthood, etc. Chastity does however take on very different meanings depending on ones vocation/station in life. In single life or the priesthood, chastity require celibacy. To stay chaste in single life or the priesthood, you will have to abstain from sex. The same is not true inside a marriage, where chastity is about two people having sex in an ordered (procreative) and loving (unitive) way. So no, the sacrament of marriage does not require celibacy. In fact the sacrament assumes that the two people being joined, both have both the ability and will to have sex while being married.

God bless you
TL

 

[TLDenmark]

I think we could use a better analogy than the one with food. Lets take two people. One is a skinny nerd with a huge brain, another is a big muscular jock with a strong body and a weak mind. Clearly one of them have been created to serve in some form of intellectual pursuit, while the other have been created for a more physically challenging occupation. Both represent good and necessary “vocations”. However let us imagine that the skinny nerd is forced to work as a lumberjack, while the muscle-man is forced to work as a university professor. Even if both of them tried to do their best, none of them would live happy or productive lives.

Something similar is true when it comes to marriage and single life. They are very different vocations, and it is not healthy to be forced into single life if ones vocation are marriage. Like the nerd being forced to be a lumberjack, those forced into single life should try to get the best out of their situation. A part of that is trying to live a celibate lifestyle, but there is a lot more to it than that. However to say that such a person should only marry if he or she was completely happy/successful in single life, is similar to saying that the nerd should only apply to a university position when he has learned to be a good lumberjack.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

I think we could use a better analogy than the one with food. Lets take two people. One is a skinny nerd with a huge brain, another is a big muscular jock with a strong body and a weak mind. Clearly one of them have been created to serve in some form of intellectual pursuit, while the other have been created for a more physically challenging occupation. Both represent good and necessary “vocations”. However let us imagine that the skinny nerd is forced to work as a lumberjack, while the muscle-man is forced to work as a university professor. Even if both of them tried to do their best, none of them would live happy or productive lives.

Something similar is true when it comes to marriage and single life. They are very different vocations, and it is not healthy to be forced into single life if ones vocation are marriage. Like the nerd being forced to be a lumberjack, those forced into single life should try to get the best out of their situation. A part of that is trying to live a celibate lifestyle, but there is a lot more to it than that. However to say that such a person should only marry if he or she was completely happy/successful in single life, is similar to saying that the nerd should only apply to a university position when he has learned to be a good lumberjack.

**That’s better:thumbsup:

The only thing I can add is that the time the nerd is working as a lumberjack can be of value in that he is learning skills and/or virtues that only an experience out of his comfort zone could provide, and vice versa for the jock. (Just as God uses whatever is going on in our lives as an opportunity for us to grow in holiness, spirit, and virtue).

Now, what I am confused about is the whole issue of “force”. I must have missed it somewhere… how is anyone forced into either the single or married vocations?
**

 

[iluvmybabies]

I think we could use a better analogy than the one with food. Lets take two people. One is a skinny nerd with a huge brain, another is a big muscular jock with a strong body and a weak mind. Clearly one of them have been created to serve in some form of intellectual pursuit, while the other have been created for a more physically challenging occupation. Both represent good and necessary “vocations”. However let us imagine that the skinny nerd is forced to work as a lumberjack, while the muscle-man is forced to work as a university professor. Even if both of them tried to do their best, none of them would live happy or productive lives.

Something similar is true when it comes to marriage and single life. They are very different vocations, and it is not healthy to be forced into single life if ones vocation are marriage. Like the nerd being forced to be a lumberjack, those forced into single life should try to get the best out of their situation. A part of that is trying to live a celibate lifestyle, but there is a lot more to it than that. However to say that such a person should only marry if he or she was completely happy/successful in single life, is similar to saying that the nerd should only apply to a university position when he has learned to be a good lumberjack.

Ok…It is a little better…

 

[iluvmybabies]

**That’s better:thumbsup:

The only thing I can add is that the time the nerd is working as a lumberjack can be of value in that he is learning skills and/or virtues that only an experience out of his comfort zone could provide, and vice versa for the jock. (Just as God uses whatever is going on in our lives as an opportunity for us to grow in holiness, spirit, and virtue).

Now, what I am confused about is the whole issue of “force”. I must have missed it somewhere… how is anyone forced into either the single or married vocations?
**

I think the force thing is probably how some are just not ready for the marriage life so they force themselves to think there is nothing better for them then the single life??? Or think they are ready for marriage so force themselves to jump into it when they should be single??? Maybe???

 

[TLDenmark]

Dear Feanaro’s Wife

That’s better:thumbsup:

Nice to hear it made a little sense .

The only thing I can add is that the time the nerd is working as a lumberjack can be of value in that he is learning skills and/or virtues that only an experience out of his comfort zone could provide, and vice versa for the jock. (Just as God uses whatever is going on in our lives as an opportunity for us to grow in holiness, spirit, and virtue).

That is a possibility, but being a super nerd he might also end up being killed by a falling tree. But yes like the nerd, a single person must try to get the best out of the situation. My point was that single life can be unhealthy, and that a happy single life is not a prerequisite for a happy marriage.

Now, what I am confused about is the whole issue of “force”. I must have missed it somewhere… how is anyone forced into either the single or married vocations?

I see your point, Maybe involuntary would be a better word than forced.

God bless you
TL

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

That is a possibility, but being a super nerd he might also end up being killed by a falling tree. But yes like the nerd, a single person must try to get the best out of the situation. My point was that single life can be unhealthy, and that a happy single life is not a prerequisite for a happy marriage.

I see your point, Maybe involuntary would be a better word than forced.

God bless you
TL

**But even a seasoned lumberjack could be killed by a falling tree.

I think what is missing so far is God’s will. If we do our best to do what we believe God is asking of us, then we should be at peace that where we are is where we are supposed to be. Use the situation to learn and grow and continually listen to what God is asking from us.

It is all to easy to be in any station in life and get down about it…then before you know it the doubt starts to grow and we start to wonder if we made a mistake, if we’re not supposed to be where we are, if we are just not able to do what needs doing. Those thoughts are not of God. God does not want us to be unhappy or doubt ourselves…guess who does?**

**And I still don’t understand how one can be involuntarily single. I DO understand that one can have the desire to be married and just not meet the right person etc… but again, it comes down to trust in God. If that right person is not crossing our path then either we are not looking where God wants us to or He has other plans for us. Either way, it does us no good (physically or spiritually) to be unhappy about our lives. All in God’s time. **

 

[TLDenmark]

Dear Malia

**But even a seasoned lumberjack could be killed by a falling tree.

I think what is missing so far is God’s will. If we do our best to do what we believe God is asking of us, then we should be at peace that where we are is where we are supposed to be. Use the situation to learn and grow and continually listen to what God is asking from us.

It is all to easy to be in any station in life and get down about it…then before you know it the doubt starts to grow and we start to wonder if we made a mistake, if we’re not supposed to be where we are, if we are just not able to do what needs doing. Those thoughts are not of God. God does not want us to be unhappy or doubt ourselves…guess who does?**

**And I still don’t understand how one can be involuntarily single. I DO understand that one can have the desire to be married and just not meet the right person etc… but again, it comes down to trust in God. If that right person is not crossing our path then either we are not looking where God wants us to or He has other plans for us. Either way, it does us no good (physically or spiritually) to be unhappy about our lives. All in God’s time. **

I am not saying the OP should not trust in God or try to find happiness in his life. Clearly he needs to do both. The OP was asking if he (the nerd) have to be comfortable with the requirements of single life (lumber-jacking), before he was ready to get married (a university position). Basically he asked if struggling with single life (lumber-jacking), indicates that he should stay a single (lumberjack). The purpose of my analogy, was to show the fault in that type of thinking. To put it in very simple terms, he (the nerd) properly struggle so much with single life (lumber-jacking) because he was created to get married (a university position). So instead of staying single (a lumberjack), he should start dating and get married (a university position). To claim that the opposite is true (that he should not pursue a university position, until he has become a good lumberjack), would be both damaging and unbiblical (Saint Paul specifically wrote that an inability to stay celibate, indicates that you ought to get married).

Yes a nerd might learn something while lumber-jacking, and mind even find some peace trough his struggles. But the nerd is still a nerd, who belongs in a very different kind of environment. To follow God purpose (the way he was created by God), he ought to pursue a line of work that are more suitable to his talents. Something similar (it is after all only my poor attempt at creating an analogy ) is often true of people struggling with single life.

God bless you
TL

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

I am not saying the OP should not trust in God or try to find happiness in his life. Clearly he needs to do both. The OP was asking if he (the nerd) have to be comfortable with the requirements of single life (lumber-jacking), before he was ready to get married (a university position). Basically he asked if struggling with single life (lumber-jacking), indicates that he should stay a single (lumberjack). The purpose of my analogy, was to show the fault in that type of thinking. To put it in very simple terms, he (the nerd) properly struggle so much with single life (lumber-jacking) because he was created to get married (a university position). So instead of staying single (a lumberjack), he should start dating and get married (a university position). To claim that the opposite is true (that he should not pursue a university position, until he has become a good lumberjack), would be both damaging and unbiblical (Saint Paul specifically wrote that an inability to stay celibate, indicates that you ought to get married).

**The other thing that sticks out to me so far is that this seems to be all about what marriage can do for or give someone instead of about the self sacrifice marriage really requires.

I don’t think pursuing marriage has anything to do with one’s current level of comfort or happiness… obviously, if one is not happy being single then they should discern if God is calling them to marriage. But unhappiness does not automatically mean that doing the opposite would “cure” them.

As a matter of fact, many people who are unhappy with their life now are just as unhappy with another choice because often the problem lies within. So I think when people suggest that one should be happy in one’s current station before pursuing another they are simply suggesting that they not try to use marriage as a cure or something to make themselves feel better. Marriage is about giving… if one is ready to give…totally, completely and with sacrifice, then one is ready to be married.**

 

[TLDenmark]

Dear Malia

**The other thing that sticks out to me so far is that this seems to be all about what marriage can do for or give someone instead of about the self sacrifice marriage really requires.

I don’t think pursuing marriage has anything to do with one’s current level of comfort or happiness… obviously, if one is not happy being single then they should discern if God is calling them to marriage. But unhappiness does not automatically mean that doing the opposite would “cure” them.

As a matter of fact, many people who are unhappy with their life now are just as unhappy with another choice because often the problem lies within. So I think when people suggest that one should be happy in one’s current station before pursuing another they are simply suggesting that they not try to use marriage as a cure or something to make themselves feel better. Marriage is about giving… if one is ready to give…totally, completely and with sacrifice, then one is ready to be married.**

You are absolutely right. Nerds are not the only people that are miserable at being lumberjacks, the same would also be true of a lazy bum. However that doesn’t change my point, that being an unhappy single (lumberjack) should not necessarily be seen as an impediment to marriage (a university degree).

God bless you
TL

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

However that doesn’t change my point, that being an unhappy single (lumberjack) should not necessarily be seen as an impediment to marriage (a university degree).

God bless you
TL

**

And that is a valid point… I am not sure who is arguing it? I am pretty sure that if we spoke with a Canon lawyer about impediments to marriage, being “unhappy” as a single prior to marriage would not be one:shrug:**

Now, my point, just to be clear, is that unhappiness is often a symptom of something else. No one should enter a marriage with any kind of “baggage” that they can fix. We are supposed to become the person that would make the best husband or wife and THEN marry…not hope that marriage changes us.

 

[TLDenmark]

Dear Malia

**

And that is a valid point… I am not sure who is arguing it? I am pretty sure that if we spoke with a Canon lawyer about impediments to marriage, being “unhappy” as a single prior to marriage would not be one:shrug:**

Now, my point, just to be clear, is that unhappiness is often a symptom of something else. No one should enter a marriage with any kind of “baggage” that they can fix. We are supposed to become the person that would make the best husband or wife and THEN marry…not hope that marriage changes us.

The ideal marriage is one that resemble the perfect love between Christ and his Church, as well as the love between the tree persons of the Holy Trinity. But at the same time, it must be remembered that marriage is always a union between God and two imperfect sinners.

There is no such thing as a human being without baggage, we all have something we need to struggle with. Sometimes the baggage comes in the form of a bad temper, a controlling personality, being afraid of confrontations, a lack of self-esteem, laziness, indecision or similar character traits, other times the baggage comes in the forms of chronic illnesses, family issues or past trauma. Catholics are no exception, otherwise we would have no need for the sacrament of reconciliation.

The claim that nobody should marry unless they were ready to be the perfect husband or wife, is both wrong and unbiblical. Such a claim would either imply that absolute perfection is possible among earthly people (wrong, since only Christ and His mother are without sin), or alternatively it would imply that nobody should get married except those that are already in heaven. Either way, it would not be in accord with catholic teachings. Now I am not saying that everybody is ready to marry, clearly that is not the case. But to demand perfection before marriage, that would almost be heretical.

So lets return to the OP. He tells us that he fells called to married life, but that he always struggle with chastity issues while dating. Knowing fully well that the Church calls everybody to stay chaste, he asks if his struggles are an impediment to marriage. He basically wants to know if he should refrain from getting married, until he can date without suffering from lustful thoughts. My answer to the OP is the following:

1. He doesn’t need to be perfect before marriage. In fact he will never become truly perfect before reaching heaven, where nobody is married.
2. The fact that he is struggling with celibacy, does not necessarily indicate that he will be struggling with chastity within marriage. The requirements of single life, is very different from the requirements of marriage. Single life require complete celibacy, whereas marriage assumes that he will give himself sexually in a unitive/loving and procreative way. To compare the two, is like comparing lumber-jacking with a university position. So instead of turning his “urges” into a problem, he should turn them into an instrument of life-giving love.
3. If he still holds doubts about his own suitability for marriage, he should discus the subject with his regular confessor.

God bless you
TL

PS: Am I right in assuming that your name is Malia?

 

[Norseman82]

**

And that is a valid point… I am not sure who is arguing it? **

Apparently, the OP thinks that is something the Catholic achurch teaches, which is what he posted in one of his first few posts in this thread.

 

[Norseman82]

There is no such thing as a human being without baggage, we all have something we need to struggle with. Sometimes the baggage comes in the form of a bad temper, a controlling personality, being afraid of confrontations, a lack of self-esteem, laziness, indecision or similar character traits, other times the baggage comes in the forms of chronic illnesses, family issues or past trauma. Catholics are no exception, otherwise we would have no need for the sacrament of reconciliation.

The claim that nobody should marry unless they were ready to be the perfect husband or wife, is both wrong and unbiblical. Such a claim would either imply that absolute perfection is possible among earthly people (wrong, since only Christ and His mother are without sin), or alternatively it would imply that nobody should get married except those that are already in heaven. Either way, it would not be in accord with catholic teachings. Now I am not saying that everybody is ready to marry, clearly that is not the case. But to demand perfection before marriage, that would almost be heretical.

So lets return to the OP. He tells us that he fells called to married life, but that he always struggle with chastity issues while dating. Knowing fully well that the Church calls everybody to stay chaste, he asks if his struggles are an impediment to marriage. He basically wants to know if he should refrain from getting married, until he can date without suffering from lustful thoughts. My answer to the OP is the following:

1. He doesn’t need to be perfect before marriage. In fact he will never become truly perfect before reaching heaven, where nobody is married.
2. The fact that he is struggling with celibacy, does not necessarily indicate that he will be struggling with chastity within marriage. The requirements of single life, is very different from the requirements of marriage. Single life require complete celibacy, whereas marriage assumes that he will give himself sexually in a unitive/loving and procreative way. To compare the two, is like comparing lumber-jacking with a university position. So instead of turning his “urges” into a problem, he should turn them into an instrument of life-giving love.
3. If he still holds doubts about his own suitability for marriage, he should discus the subject with his regular confessor.

Yes, that is another way of putting it. I know many of you did not like my previous analogy (which, by the way, is a response to many who say “you have to accept not being married before you are ready to be married”, and in that scenario it is indeed a valid analogy), but it did prod the discussion along to this point.

Much of the problem is that a lot of advice offered by and to singles is female-oriented (and especially to the older ones who may be bitter over their own divorces) and do not take into account the struggles that males, whether young or not, face. Trust me, I have found that out by going to church young adult and singles events.

 

[Norseman82]

**
Now, what I am confused about is the whole issue of “force”. I must have missed it somewhere… how is anyone forced into either the single or married vocations?
**

It may not have been said in this thread, however, keep your eyes open in other threads, forums, and conversations you engage in “real life” for the whole “micromanaging God” view of life where God has our entire lives planned out for us. People have laid guilt trips on people with the whole “now, now, are you SURE that’s God’s will?” and “maybe God has other plans for you”, and I’ve even read/heard people argue that going against God’s chosen path for you is a sin, which only leads to unhealthy second-guessing and indecisiveness because we will always be doubting every decision we ever make because we will be asking ourselves if it is God’s will.

I guess I could have a successful carreer deprogramming all the people who have been duped by these guilt trips.

 

[Norseman82]

And that is my point. If a man views sex as a "need’ like hunger, how can he lovingly accept that he will not be “fed” for a short or long time?

So what is your advice (or anybody else’s advice), should I try to marry as Saint Paul advices or should I stay single?

Unfortunately, a lot of people want to sweep St. Paul’s advice under the rug (“St. Paul Under the Rug” - that would make a good name for a parish!) because they don’t want to face the fact that the Bible does in fact recognize that not everyone can handle lifelong celibacy and those people are better off marrying. St. Paul even counsels married couples not to deny each other for fear that Satan could tempt one or both of them.

If the Bible approves (even encourages) marriage in these cases, it is improper for us to disappprove.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

There is no such thing as a human being without baggage, we all have something we need to struggle with. Sometimes the baggage comes in the form of a bad temper, a controlling personality, being afraid of confrontations, a lack of self-esteem, laziness, indecision or similar character traits, other times the baggage comes in the forms of chronic illnesses, family issues or past trauma. Catholics are no exception, otherwise we would have no need for the sacrament of reconciliation.

The claim that nobody should marry unless they were ready to be the perfect husband or wife, is both wrong and unbiblical.

PS: Am I right in assuming that your name is Malia?

**OK, first of all yes, my name is Malia

Now, I said that someone should not enter into marriage with “baggage” that can be fixed. Not all of your examples are what I would consider baggage. Only those things that it is really not fair to heap upon a spouse and expect them to deal with it.

I also did not say “perfect” husband or wife. I said the “best” they can be. And, since we are all sinners, that will be far from perfect. And by best, I mean at the time. We all grow and change. An example would be if I were a single woman looking to marry but I could not control my spending. It is really ot fair to enter into a marriage until I can get that under control (under most circumstances). I should not expect a future husband to just deal with it or fix it for me…or wait patiently for me to fix it myself as his credit is ruined and we’re in debt up to our ears.
**

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

Much of the problem is that a lot of advice offered by and to singles is female-oriented (and especially to the older ones who may be bitter over their own divorces) and do not take into account the struggles that males, whether young or not, face. Trust me, I have found that out by going to church young adult and singles events.

**
In this thread I have not seen that. And the threads here at CAF have really opened my eyes to the struggles that men face. I mean, as a woman, I am never going to hear these things in real life. I really appreciate the perspective.**

It may not have been said in this thread, however, keep your eyes open in other threads, forums, and conversations you engage in “real life” for the whole “micromanaging God” view of life where God has our entire lives planned out for us. People have laid guilt trips on people with the whole “now, now, are you SURE that’s God’s will?” and “maybe God has other plans for you”, and I’ve even read/heard people argue that going against God’s chosen path for you is a sin, which only leads to unhealthy second-guessing and indecisiveness because we will always be doubting every decision we ever make because we will be asking ourselves if it is God’s will.

**
Again, with the threads I usually participate in I have not come across this. But I can understand how it would alter your views of some of my posts.**

Unfortunately, a lot of people want to sweep St. Paul’s advice under the rug (“St. Paul Under the Rug” - that would make a good name for a parish!) because they don’t want to face the fact that the Bible does in fact recognize that not everyone can handle lifelong celibacy and those people are better off marrying. St. Paul even counsels married couples not to deny each other for fear that Satan could tempt one or both of them.

If the Bible approves (even encourages) marriage in these cases, it is improper for us to disappprove.

I for one agree with St.Paul’s statement. But I think it is more about discerning one’s vocation, not about the super messed up views of sex that our current culture faces. I don’t think St.Paul had in mind men viewing women as a means to an end and getting married so that he would not have to resort to internet porn or strip clubs. I think he was probably saying that even though a vocation in the religious life is good, it is not for every man.

As for our OP, he doesn’t come across as the type who is wanting to marry only to get “relief”. He sounds seriously confused as to his calling and I hope he can get some good spiritual direction.

 

[TLDenmark]

Dear Norseman

Much of the problem is that a lot of advice offered by and to singles is female-oriented (and especially to the older ones who may be bitter over their own divorces) and do not take into account the struggles that males, whether young or not, face. Trust me, I have found that out by going to church young adult and singles events.

I don’t think anybody on this thread have posted out of malice or bitterness, most of the people on CAF are good people. While reading the many posts about sins of impurity on CAF, I have realized that a lot of women struggle with celibacy as well. It is not an exclusively male problem. Also I do not think the concerns comming from Malia are invalid. A marriage is an unbreakable sacrament of mutual self-giving, it needs to be taken very seriously.

God bless you
TL

 

[TLDenmark]

Dear Malia

**OK, first of all yes, my name is Malia

Now, I said that someone should not enter into marriage with “baggage” that can be fixed. Not all of your examples are what I would consider baggage. Only those things that it is really not fair to heap upon a spouse and expect them to deal with it.

I also did not say “perfect” husband or wife. I said the “best” they can be. And, since we are all sinners, that will be far from perfect. And by best, I mean at the time. We all grow and change. An example would be if I were a single woman looking to marry but I could not control my spending. It is really ot fair to enter into a marriage until I can get that under control (under most circumstances). I should not expect a future husband to just deal with it or fix it for me…or wait patiently for me to fix it myself as his credit is ruined and we’re in debt up to our ears.
**

I think I agree with you .

God bless you
TL