Only rich people can be truly catholic?

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UKcatholicGuy:
How do I respond to this argument? . . .

1.The Catholic Church is set up in such a way that poor people cannot truly live out what it teaches. For example, how can poor people with no means of transportation go to a holy hour before the Eucharist? Or how do they even get to Sunday mass?

2.How do people in poor thrid world countries even have access to a [monstrance] since they’re made of gold and are expensive?

3.Isn’t it true that Catholics are typically middle to upper middle class folk?

I’d really appreciate some help with refuting these claims! Thanks!
Oy vey! What will they think of next? Who’s making these claims anyway?
I was listening to NPR during the Coclave and some talking heads were discussing the Church’s stand on birth control and one of them chimed in, “Well, the church is and international conglomerate so naturally it’s in their interest to have more Catholics.”
I wished I could ask her just how the births of more Catholics in the Third World adds to the Vatican’s coffers!?
(First World Catholics being the most likely to be using birth control).
 
…i respectfully disagree…:cool:

sorry for wasting my words, i will try to be more brief next time…👍
 
Well, I heard this in protestant southamericans, explain that the church have many money and lot of these things, we don´t have so money that protestants and for this reason, US and Europe are important for the church in the world, for saving souls and for their money, because the majority of church is healthy in faith but poor in money.
In Sum up is the opossite of this sentence.
 
Having worked in Africa for many years, I can tell you right now that I have seen many Catholics who had massive poverty and massive Faith. I used to see men ,women and children walking along dirt roads and over the veld for miles to get to church on Sunday. They would spend hours in the service, and more hours walking home.
I doubt that the majority of the world’s Catholics are middle-class.
 
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Sherlock:
Basically, the way one can know if one is a member of the “elect” (those destined for heaven) is one’s prosperity in this life. By this reasoning, no poor person is going to heaven at all, as clearly God didn’t favor them with prosperity. It’s a loathesome, false doctrine, though it may explain the so-called “Protestant work ethic”.
Amen to that! That doctrine certainly is loathesome, and I am sickened when I hear Catholics espousing it (fortunately, that doesn’t happen often).

My church has people of all income levels; being in the city, we may be a little skewed towards the poor. For those with no money to give, there are countless opportunities to donate one’s time and talents.

Where I live, transportaion usually isn’t an issue – my city has loads of Catholic churches; there are five within two miles of my house. Not having transportation never has to be an excuse to miss Mass, though; there are always people willing to drive those who can’t drive themselves.

St. Francis knows how God feels about the poor! 🙂
 
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UKcatholicGuy:
How do I respond to this argument? . . .

1.The Catholic Church is set up in such a way that poor people cannot truly live out what it teaches. For example, how can poor people with no means of transportation go to a holy hour before the Eucharist? Or how do they even get to Sunday mass?

2.How do people in poor thrid world countries even have access to a [monstrance] since they’re made of gold and are expensive?

3.Isn’t it true that Catholics are typically middle to upper middle class folk?

I’d really appreciate some help with refuting these claims! Thanks!
Yeah, I can see your point on this. Well, if that’s the case, I’ll leave
 
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Sherlock:
I think you’ve already received good answers here, but I would add, along the lines of what Anima Christi (one of my favorite prayers, by the way) was saying, that some Protestants teach the “Gospel of prosperity”. I believe that this is largely the result of Calvin’s teaching. Basically, the way one can know if one is a member of the “elect” (those destined for heaven) is one’s prosperity in this life. By this reasoning, no poor person is going to heaven at all, as clearly God didn’t favor them with prosperity. It’s a loathesome, false doctrine, though it may explain the so-called “Protestant work ethic”.

The “Protestant work ethic” is not based on the “prosperity gospel”, but on something much older - on the belief that God does not wish man to be idle, but to work gainfully, and, above all, in a way that brings honour to the God Who is man’s Creator. And work is not based on sin - because Adam worked before the Fall. So it seems that the instinct to work is an element in human nature, and one which God designs us to have.​

The idea presupposes a high view of work, as something God our Father wishes us to do as a way of being obedient to Him - and there is no kind of work by which we cannot honour God: this something open to all Christians - not surprisingly, if all Christians are the adopted children of the Father.

So it has strong roots in the Biblical theology of creation and vocation: work is something to which we are called -the Christian postman, Christian chef or Christian janitor has as true a vocation, as a minister of religion. For those also are means of ministerium, diakonia, service: and they all build up the Body of Christ. Chefs, postmen, electricians, if Christian, are working to a purpose: they are serving God by doing their jobs. Which is a good reason to be honest and to do the work one is paid to do: it also gives the Christian a motive to work - because he is serving Christ, Who Himself worked, and ennobled work by His example

So it is a Christian vision of the value of work. Like all things, it can be spoiled: but it is derived from revelation. Don’t confuse it with bastardised forms of the idea, which exaggerate one element in it, and ignore everything else.

Some such theological vision of work might do a great deal to reform and purify how we work, and how spend our time: because mere production of “things” on a great scale so as to increase profits, is a very different vision of work: its Achilles’ heel is that it ignores God and treats man as a mere economic unit. This other work ethic starts from God, so it is far more hopeful. And far more inspiring. ##
 
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Sherlock:
I think you’ve already received good answers here, but I would add, along the lines of what Anima Christi (one of my favorite prayers, by the way) was saying, that some Protestants teach the “Gospel of prosperity”. I believe that this is largely the result of Calvin’s teaching. Basically, the way one can know if one is a member of the “elect” (those destined for heaven) is one’s prosperity in this life. By this reasoning, no poor person is going to heaven at all, as clearly God didn’t favor them with prosperity. It’s a loathesome, false doctrine, though it may explain the so-called “Protestant work ethic”.

The “Protestant work ethic” is not based on the “prosperity gospel”, but on something much older - on the belief that God does not wish man to be idle, but to work gainfully, and, above all, in a way that brings honour to the God Who is man’s Creator. And work is not based on sin - because Adam worked before the Fall. So it seems that the instinct to work is an element in human nature, and one which God designs us to have.​

The idea presupposes a high view of work, as something God our Father wishes us to do as a way of being obedient to Him - and there is no kind of work by which we cannot honour God: this something open to all Christians - not surprisingly, if all Christians are the adopted children of the Father.

So it has strong roots in the Biblical theology of creation and vocation: work is something to which we are called -the Christian postman, Christian chef or Christian janitor has as true a vocation, as a minister of religion. For those also are means of ministerium, diakonia, service: and they all build up the Body of Christ. Chefs, postmen, electricians, if Christian, are working to a purpose: they are serving God by doing their jobs. Which is a good reason to be honest and to do the work one is paid to do: it also gives the Christian a motive to work - because he is serving Christ, Who Himself worked, and ennobled work by His example

So it is a Christian vision of the value of work. Like all things, it can be spoiled: but it is derived from revelation. Don’t confuse it with bastardised forms of the idea, which exaggerate one element in it, and ignore everything else.

Some such theological vision of work might do a great deal to reform and purify how we work, and how spend our time: because mere production of “things” on a great scale so as to increase profits, is a very different vision of work: its Achilles’ heel is that it ignores God and treats man as a mere economic unit. This other work ethic starts from God, so it is far more hopeful. And far more inspiring.

The “prosperity Gospel” leaves out most of Calvin’s ideas, and keeps just one or two elements of his thinking, so falsifying it entirely. It has nothing to say about human responsibility or Christian holiness, for a start - he said much on both subjects.

Many Calvinists were and are poor in the eyes of the world - why should this saddle Calvin with the idea that election presupposes wordly prosperity ? Such an idea turns what he thought on its head. It is a caricature of his thinking; if we complain of Protestant caricatures of our beliefs, we can hardly caricature Protestant beliefs. Calvin deserves better than to be caricatured. BTW: election is in the Bible - see Romans 8 & Ephesians 1, for starters. ##
 
oh for heavens sakes…

Anyone who makes this kind of argument is ignoring the growth of the Church in third world countries, in particular in Africa where it has exploded.

When my Mom was a girl, the priest came to the community once a month to celebrate Mass because they had no regular Priest.
She remembers how he drove an old flatbed truck and would come around to pick up all those farmers and farmers’ kids who didn’t have transporation other than their feet. In the summer, she told me, she and her sisters and brothers would walk in order that the babies and pregnant moms in the community could ride on the truck. She said going to Mass was such a wonderful event and, since everyone was poor, no one felt out of place or strange. Because it wasn’t until the 30’s that they got a Parish priest of their own, and could build a Church, the Catholics would meet on Sundays to say a rosary together.

What a great community!
 
Isn’t it amusingly elitist that the questioner has focused on particular outward trappings and ignored the core of Catholicism, of Christianity itself? As if Catholicism were only “going to holy hour, having a gold monstrance, or belonging to a particular class.” How ignorant this person is! It is laughable, yet at the same time, sorrowful, to see this kind of ignorant “argument” presented, and yes it would be equally ignorant to say that all Protestants are wealthy WASPs, all Jews in the U.S. are rich, Protestants only care about having expensive Bibles, all Muslims are bloodthirsty fanatics, etc.

Yes, this type of argument is anti-religious to the core, shallow, ignorant, elitist and vain. (oh, what the heck, I won’t hold back my feelings–it is a pile of garbage–nope, that’s actually offensive to good clean garbage everywhere!–OK, the argument is dishonest, deliberately malicious, divisive and hateful. There. 😃 )

Sad. I will pray for this person. If honestly so ignorant, he desperately needs enlightenment. If dishonest, he needs to make restitution and repent.
 
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UKcatholicGuy:
How do I respond to this argument? . . .

1.The Catholic Church is set up in such a way that poor people cannot truly live out what it teaches. For example, how can poor people with no means of transportation go to a holy hour before the Eucharist? Or how do they even get to Sunday mass?

2.How do people in poor thrid world countries even have access to a [monstrance] since they’re made of gold and are expensive?

3.Isn’t it true that Catholics are typically middle to upper middle class folk?

I’d really appreciate some help with refuting these claims! Thanks!
This is total bunk. Most Catholics in the world are poor. Even in the U.S. and even more in the U.K., Catholics tend to be working class. If whoever is making this argument is (like you) from the U.K., he/she should know that most British Catholics are descended from Irish immigrants. (Yes, there is a native English Catholic tradition, and those people tended to be upper-class–but they are a relatively small group.) They were historically despised and discriminated against by the English and Scots. Much the same is true in the U.S. St. Elizabeth Seton’s Episcopalian family was horrified that she was becoming Catholic largely because Catholicism was the religion of dirty working-class Irish people who spat on the floor, etc.

As for no. 1, traditionally people walked to church. That’s the point of the parish system. This is a really ignorant objection.

No. 2 is the interesting one, because the more serious objection people make to Catholicism is that it keeps people poor while enriching the Church as an institution. In other words, it’s sheer ignorance to suggest that poor parishes don’t have monstrances–the more serious question is whether paying that kind of money doesn’t contribute to impoverish the people further. To some extent I think this is a valid objection–Catholicism has sometimes taken the side of the elites and has been part of an aristocratic order that has oppressed people. But this is a mixed record, not a thoroughly bad one. Catholic clergy have also often defended the common people against their oppressors. And as for monstrances etc.–consider the fact that churches were the only repository of beauty and splendor openly available to the common people. The objection that rich, ornate churches somehow oppress people has some merit, but it’s largely a modern middle-class objection arising in the minds of people who live comfortable lives in nice homes. If you are a poor peasant living in a mud hut, then the fact that the church is beautiful is more likely to be a source of consolation to you than a source of resentment.

It’s impossible to generalize–I do think that Catholicism has a mixed record here. But it’s not as simple as your friend seems to think. And Catholicism compares favorably with some other forms of Christianity such as Anglicanism, which historically have been far more the preserve of the rich and powerful.

Edwin
 
1.The Catholic Church is set up in such a way that poor people cannot truly live out what it teaches. For example, how can poor people with no means of transportation go to a holy hour before the Eucharist? Or how do they even get to Sunday mass?
We establish parishes in the poorest districts so people can walk to mass. When it is not possible for people to attend Mass, they are not obligated.
2.How do people in poor thrid world countries even have access to a [monstrance] since they’re made of gold and are expensive?
Many poor parishes receive support from more affluent parishes – that’s one key characteristic of Catholicism. For example, my own church, Saint Mary’s of Mountain View, Arkansas was partially financed by a no-interest loan from the Diocese.
3.Isn’t it true that Catholics are typically middle to upper middle class folk?
It is most assuredly not true. Most Catholics are third-world peasants who live in Latin America or Africa.
 
It’s the faulty definition of “truly Catholic”

It certainly i sthe case around here that it helps to be really rich to partake in activites such as daily mass during a working person’s hours.

The true cost of the Sacraments: buying expensive mandatory dress clothes, dress shoes, donation to the priext, etc., for Sacraments

Transportation, getting to/from Mass, etc.

It’s a good point, but the fault lies in the question because the question relies on a Faulty definition of “truly Catholic”

🙂
How do I respond to this argument? . . .

1.The Catholic Church is set up in such a way that poor people cannot truly live out what it teaches. For example, how can poor people with no means of transportation go to a holy hour before the Eucharist? Or how do they even get to Sunday mass?

2.How do people in poor thrid world countries even have access to a [monstrance] since they’re made of gold and are expensive?

3.Isn’t it true that Catholics are typically middle to upper middle class folk?

I’d really appreciate some help with refuting these claims! Thanks!
 
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