Only two objections to God's existence? (Aquinas)

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Howard Sobel is a first class intellectual, and I join you in praise of him. Even though I and other classical theists have disagreements with him, some of his works on philosophy of religion are among the best in that field by atheist philosophers. So there are a few specialists that curb the trend that I was describing, but that does not make the trend any less real. There is simply a gross ignorance and misunderstanding of classical theism by both atheists and theists alike, which is a shame because classical theism represents the best possible case for religion, and many of us think that case proves utterly successful. I still contend, btw, that philosophy of religion is no less exempt from this trend. Graham Oppy, for example, is notorious for his freshman-level mistakes and misunderstandings of classical theism.

To bring this back full circle, the idea that a random poster on the internet finds Aquinas’ reasoning to be faulty is so utterly laughable as to not warrant any serious consideration. When, basically, the entire Academy is ignorant and misunderstanding of Aquinas, how could we possibly, with any seriousness, regard the critique of Aquinas by a random poster?

One thing that I would also like to be critical of is the tendency of atheists (and, yes, theists) to weigh in on issues where they have only read one side. You read Oppy, Sobel, and others. Fine. But have you read Feser, Maritain, Gilson, Clarke, Wild, Wipple, Ashley, Wallace, Lagrange, and the list goes on? I can understand why idealogues avoid this kind of objectivity, but true intellectuals ourselves are after the truth. So stop being lazy you atheist or you theist, hit the books.
Ok, from that point of view it makes sense to take a random poster’s claims to having efficient critiques of Aquinas as initially implausible. On the flip side, I haven’t met many Thomists (on the internet) who’ve spent adequate time with contemporary philosophy, or its objections to Aquinenan arguments. So, when I encounter a random poster’s claims to having efficient critiques of contemporary philosophy, or its objections to, say, the Quinque Viae, I’m initially pretty skeptical.

I’ve never really gotten into Feser beyond his blogs, and articles I can freely access. I have read Maritain, Clarke, Wipple and Lagrange. Also, Brother Benignus’ intro to Thomistic philosophy. I used to attend a Catholic seminary which highly encouraged Thomism. So, I took probably…5 classes on things relating to Thomism, on top of individual meetings with my philosophy and logic professors who were both Thomists. None of this is meant to establish myself as any kind of authority on Thomism. I just wanted you to know that I’ve studied as best I could within my resources, and interests.

Edit**

Oh, I’ve also been reading Joseph Bobik’s Aquinas On Being and Essence, A Translation and Interpretation for a few years now. I’ve never known if he’s any kind of authority within the Thomist community? But, in any case, he seems to be a very lucid writer. Haldane is another one I like. Tried reading Cajetan’s commentary On Being and Essence, but that was just impenetrable to me.
 
If it were true we wouldn’t know what to expect!
Which could suggest materialism is false!
It is obvious that materialistic monism provides no rational basis for purposeful experience.
Perhaps to you

Can you provide one?
  1. Materialism is rare in the intellectual history of mankind.
So is mathematical logic and computer science

They are specialised subjects which have no bearing on materialism which has been discussed in depth for more than two millenia by philosophers no less intelligent than those of today. The beauty of philosophy is that it transcends fashionable trends like scientism and materialism.
  1. The success of science is not due to materialism.
It’s not due to substance dualism either

It is due to theism which was promoted and sustained by Christianity - as explained by Stanley Jaki in his books.
  1. The divergence of opinion amongst materialists is evidence of its weakness.
Divergence in which opinions? Who’ll win the superbowl?

“reductionist, non-reductionist, eliminativist, etc” - which are inconsistent.
  1. To attribute my objection to a conspiracy theory is an argumentum ad hominem.
Faute de mieux, it could commit you to a conspiracy theory.

Another argumentum ad hominem! 🙂
  1. To attribute my objection to a judgment about their cognitive capacities (intelligence or education) is an argumentum ad hominem.
I’ve derived these options from your position, if anything is thereby ad hominem…istic…it’s your position. Oh okay

My position is irrelevant. That is not the issue…
 
Howard Sobel is a first class intellectual, and I join you in praise of him. Even though I and other classical theists have disagreements with him, some of his works on philosophy of religion are among the best in that field by atheist philosophers. So there are a few specialists that curb the trend that I was describing, but that does not make the trend any less real. There is simply a gross ignorance and misunderstanding of classical theism by both atheists and theists alike, which is a shame because classical theism represents the best possible case for religion, and many of us think that case proves utterly successful. I still contend, btw, that philosophy of religion is no less exempt from this trend. Graham Oppy, for example, is notorious for his freshman-level mistakes and misunderstandings of classical theism.

To bring this back full circle, the idea that a random poster on the internet finds Aquinas’ reasoning to be faulty is so utterly laughable as to not warrant any serious consideration. When, basically, the entire Academy is ignorant and misunderstanding of Aquinas, how could we possibly, with any seriousness, regard the critique of Aquinas by a random poster?

One thing that I would also like to be critical of is the tendency of atheists (and, yes, theists) to weigh in on issues where they have only read one side. You read Oppy, Sobel, and others. Fine. But have you read Feser, Maritain, Gilson, Clarke, Wild, Wipple, Ashley, Wallace, Lagrange, and the list goes on? I can understand why idealogues avoid this kind of objectivity, but true intellectuals ourselves are after the truth. So stop being lazy you atheist or you theist, hit the books.
The need to read is beyond dispute but what counts most is what we can’t refute!
 
Physicalism and materialism are generally synonymous, I wouldn’t distinguish between them as I used the latter. But, I’m not sure what most philosophers think on the issue. I only know that most philosophers of mind are materialists, very, very few are substance dualists by comparison.

Hm, I’m not sure whether the idea crossed his mind, but I disagree with that argument and think others should as well.
I wish to politely point out that many Thomists would not categorize themselves as substance dualists. The reason is because substance dualism seems to be a largely Descartes thing that came about with the rejection of final causality. Hylemorphism is a form of dualism, but the detailed metaphysical framework behind it indeed shows that it is not substance dualism.

I think substance dualism is a silly position, just as I think reincarnation a silly position.

ciao,
Michael
 
I wish to politely point out that many Thomists would not categorize themselves as substance dualists. The reason is because substance dualism seems to be a largely Descartes thing that came about with the rejection of final causality. Hylemorphism is a form of dualism, but the detailed metaphysical framework behind it indeed shows that it is not substance dualism.

I think substance dualism is a silly position, just as I think reincarnation a silly position.

ciao,
Michael
I looked for the ‘Like’ button for a second there. Well said, I fully agree. We can hardly equate substance dualism with the classical and Catholic position. 👍
 
Cool, where lies your disagreement exactly?
Well, first I should say I believe I’ve seen this species of argumentation advanced as far back as Locke. So, I won’t be intending to address every argument of this kind, just the one at the provided link.

The Argument:
  1. For an assertion to be capable of truth or falsehood it must come from a rational source.
  2. No merely physical material or combination of merely physical materials constitutes a rational source. (i.e. anti-panpsychism).
  3. Therefore, no assertion that is true or false can come from a merely physical source.
  4. The assertions of human minds are capable of truth or falsehood.
  5. Conclusion: Therefore, human minds are not a merely physical source.
  6. A being requires a rational process to assess the truth or falsehood of a claim (hereinafter, to be convinced by argument).
  7. Therefore, if humans are able to be convinced by argument, their reasoning processes must have a rational source.
  8. Therefore, considering element two above, if humans are able to be convinced by argument, their reasoning processes must have a non-physical (as well as rational) source.
  9. Rationality cannot arise out of non-rationality. That is, no arrangement of non-rational materials creates a rational thing.
  10. No being that begins to exist can be rational except through reliance, ultimately, on a rational being that did not begin to exist. That is, rationality does not arise spontaneously from out of nothing but only from another rationality.
  11. All humans began to exist at some point in time.
  12. Therefore, if humans are able to be convinced by argument, there must be a necessary and rational being on which their rationality ultimately relies.
  13. Conclusion: This being we call God.
My Response:

First, the argument isn’t logically valid. So, there’s nothing at all illogical about accepting all of the premises and yet rejecting the conclusion. Still, the premises might afford good evidence of the conclusion, so we’ll need to evaluate whether they’re true.

The argument strikes me as extremely muddled, with vague terms (like rational source), and is replete with inconsistent, unwarranted shifts of modal operators.

For example, I find the word ‘assertion(s)’ in this argument extremely vague, but am inclined to interpret it not as propositions but as some kind of sentence-token thing. The former are abstract objects, the latter concreta, composed of ink, or pixles, or thoughts, etc. I think ‘assertion’ means sentence-token because (1) says assertion’s truth-aptness presupposes a rational source, and (4) says assertions of human minds are truth-apt.

But, such a notion seems eminently false. Look at indexical sentence-tokens. e.g., ‘I like cheese.’ This assertion is true or false depending on who ‘I’ refers to. Thus, it is true when I assert it, but false when someone else does. So, to think sentence-tokens can be true or false leads to the absurd position that some assertions are both true and false, or neither true nor false, violating the laws of excluded middle and non-contradiction respectively.

So, (4) and (5) should be rejected. Further accepting (10) (which follows from nothing that precedes it) would render the rest of the argument completely superfluous.

(2) and (9) merely assume that materialism is false.

Finally, it’s simply special pleading to say a necessarily existent being can ‘just’ be rational by nature, but a being that begins to exist cannot ‘just’ be rational by nature.

(There are loads more objections I’d propose, but this might be getting cumbersome to read)
 
Physicalism and materialism are generally synonymous, I wouldn’t distinguish between them as I used the latter. But, I’m not sure what most philosophers think on the issue. I only know that most philosophers of mind are materialists, very, very few are substance dualists by comparison.

Hm, I’m not sure whether the idea crossed his mind, but I disagree with that argument and think others should as well.
Most are materialists? Are you sure of that because I have seen more becoming property dualists then materialists based on the fact materialism in philosophy of mind is suffering a bit on irreducible observations, by that fact one is a materialist on faith and not fact. But not to give property dualists credit, they suffer just as much. And I think we spoke about this before, who in the world is still a substance dualist? If there is any, they must feel very comfortable with gaps.
 
Most are materialists? Are you sure of that because I have seen more becoming property dualists then materialists based on the fact materialism in philosophy of mind is suffering a bit on irreducible observations, by that fact one is a materialist on faith and not fact. But not to give property dualists credit, they suffer just as much. And I think we spoke about this before, who in the world is still a substance dualist? If there is any, they must feel very comfortable with gaps.
Mhm, materialism is basically the idea that all objects are fundamentally physical.

But, what about events and properties?

The materialist can either say some or all events and properties are just physical, some or all events and properties ultimately reduce to the physical, or that some or all events are neither just physical, nor ultimately reduce to the physical. This last group is known as non-reductive materialism, and I’ve seen quite a surge in this category. (Thomas Nagel is my favorite atheist non-reductive materialist).

As to substance dualism, I think the vast majority of Christians and Muslims are substance dualists.
 
Actually, I’m pretty sure theists have to be substance dualists.
 
As to substance dualism, I think the vast majority of Christians and Muslims are substance dualists.
You know damn well they’re all dualists, it’s body AND soul.

Notice, friends, that with all these vague words the A-team fills this website with,
they try to draw your attention away from things only a spiritual souls can do,
like seek out and go to an art museum for no other reason than to enjoy the art,
something a creature that was material only couldn’t do.
 
You know damn well they’re all dualists, it’s body AND soul.

Notice, friends, that with all these vague words the A-team fills this website with,
they try to draw your attention away from things only a spiritual souls can do,
like seek out and go to an art museum for no other reason than to enjoy the art,
something a creature that was material only couldn’t do.
Erm…methinks you don’t know what substance dualism is.
 
Actually, I’m pretty sure theists have to be substance dualists.
Not Catholics, even though that theory was promulgated by a backwards Catholic. We’re hylemorphic dualists, we don’t hold the soul to be an existing thing in a spiritual realm or an airy thing living in the body like a ghost in the machine but a composite of form and matter. Perhaps you should’ve continued that Thomist course in the seminary 😉 The dualism is like property dualism, Thomas Nagel’s dualism, except we don’t hold that higher order functions emerge from the brain but a function based on the very form.
 
Not Catholics, even though that theory was promulgated by a backwards Catholic. We’re hylemorphic dualists, we don’t hold the soul to be an existing thing in a spiritual realm or an airy thing living in the body like a ghost in the machine but a composite of form and matter. Perhaps you should’ve continued that Thomist course in the seminary 😉 The dualism is like property dualism, Thomas Nagel’s dualism, except we don’t hold that higher order functions emerge from the brain but a function based on the very form.
Yeah, I’m not sure this Thomist line of reasoning is all that different from substance dualism; but, I never said Catholics were substance dualists and Catholics certainly don’t have to be Thomists.

Edit**

Ah, you might have said this in response to my remark that I think theists have to be substance dualists. I should qualify that statement. god is an essentially immaterial substance with no physical body. So, it seems theists must advocate substance dualism with regards to god, at least.
 
Yeah, I’m not sure this Thomist line of reasoning is all that different from substance dualism; but, I never said Catholics were substance dualists and Catholics certainly don’t have to be Thomists.
Thank you. Being a Thomist is not required to be a Catholic nor is it the official philosophy of the Church. It is highly favored however, insofar as it is true–and there is a lot that is true. And yes, doctrine has been explained and defined before using concepts and vocabulary from Thomist philosophy, but it doesn’t mean it can’t be described using other terminology.

One of my philosophy professors had the darndest time figuring out what the difference was between hylemorphism and substance dualism with regards to the human soul. It’s not easy to see, but I think it boils down to final causality in hylemorphism and the rejection of it in substance dualism.
Ah, you might have said this in response to my remark that I think theists have to be substance dualists. I should qualify that statement. god is an essentially immaterial substance with no physical body. So, it seems theists must advocate substance dualism with regards to god, at least.
You might say that, but as far as I have always heard, dualism is always made in reference to nature and more specifically the human being. Substance dualism is a species of dualism that says there are two completely different substances that make up the human person.

It is not necessarily a question of the physical versus non-physical or the material versus the immaterial (yes, perhaps for substance dualists).
 
Erm…methinks you don’t know what substance dualism is.
Who cares? 🤷
Methinks you’re on the record all over this website as denying the reality of God, the human soul, and anything else any believer says.

That was the purpose of my post.
 
Yeah, I’m not sure this Thomist line of reasoning is all that different from substance dualism; but, I never said Catholics were substance dualists and Catholics certainly don’t have to be Thomists.

Edit**

Ah, you might have said this in response to my remark that I think theists have to be substance dualists. I should qualify that statement. god is an essentially immaterial substance with no physical body. So, it seems theists must advocate substance dualism with regards to god, at least.
Ah, I see what you meant. Think it’s almost time for an all-call to philosophers to make a new philosophy dictionary. Half our debates, it looks like, are over misunderstood definitions. Speaking of which, the Summa or Contra Gentiles could use a modern translation.
 
Think it’s almost time for an all-call to philosophers to make a new philosophy dictionary. Half our debates, it looks like, are over misunderstood definitions.
Yesterday, Perplexity said to me that I didn’t know the definition of “substance duality”. :eek:

I thought it had to mean the dual material and spiritual natures of the soul considered as a human person. After all, Aquinas says the soul is the union of body and spirit. The spiritual without the material is not a human person. You need both But Perplexity implied it was something else.

So I checked the definition of “substance duality” and it was exactly what I thought it was, the dual material and spiritual natures of the soul considered as a human personl.

That’s how the A-team operates, friends. Deception upon deception.
 
Yesterday, Perplexity said to me that I didn’t know the definition of “substance duality”. :eek:

I thought it had to mean the dual material and spiritual natures of the soul considered as a human person. After all, Aquinas says the soul is the union of body and spirit. The spiritual without the material is not a human person. You need both But Perplexity implied it was something else.

So I checked the definition of “substance duality” and it was exactly what I thought it was, the dual material and spiritual natures of the soul considered as a human personl.

That’s how the A-team operates, friends. Deception upon deception.
“Substance dualism is the view that the universe contains two fundamental types of entity: mental and physical.” 1]

“substance dualism - The view that the mental and the physical comprise two different classes of objects: minds and bodies.” 2]

“Substance dualists typically argue that the mind and the body are composed of different substances and that the mind is a thinking thing that lacks the usual attributes of physical objects: size, shape, location, solidity, motion, adherence to the laws of physics, and so on.” 3]

“Substance dualism holds that there are two fundamentally different types of such entities – material substances, or bodies, and mental substances, or minds.” 4]

You said you looked up substance dualism, but all the above are from a 10 second google search. They all agree with me. Where did you look? 😛
 
Who cares? 🤷
Methinks you’re on the record all over this website as denying the reality of God, the human soul, and anything else any believer says.

That was the purpose of my post.
I have denied numerous theological and philosophical positions on here. Heaven forbid.
 
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