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cam100
Guest
If the supreme deception is underway, and this means that there is no pope, and we have no clue how long it will last, how do we even know when it started? How do we know that the last, say 10, 20, or more popes haven’t been real popes because we’ve been in the midst of the supreme deception? What if the Great Westem Schism was the beginning of this deception, and Benedict XIII was actually the real pope, not Martin V? How do we know otherwise? How do we know that Old Catholics sect was not correct in rejecting the “innovations” of Pope Pius IX and the First Vatican Council. Maybe the deception started then and we should reject Vatican I?
It seems that the sedevacantist logic would permit any of these conclusions as valid.
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Victory5
Guest
everyone take a deep breath—TNT–PLEASE POST THE QUOTE FROM THE CCC–RIGHT HERE—THEN GIVE YOUR INTERPRETATION OF IT—EVEN IF YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE ALREADY DONE THIS STILL DO IT AGAIN. THIS WILL HELP US TO MOVE FORWARD AND DEAL WITH THIS --THANK YOU----
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TNT
Guest
Here ya Go V5:
It may take more than 1 post:
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**RE: **
If the Church is all that, it surely isn’t the one Peter established.
One step forward.
So that leaves the Protestants.
One step backward.
Oh wait, there is the SSPX and the independent Catholic groups.
One step forward.
Now here’s what your catechism says:
675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a** final trial** that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution [most think in terms of bloody martyring, but that is not what is to happen. The persecution is not against individuals, but the Body of Christ, i.e. The Church as an a Divine Institution.] that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth ****[The truth in this case is the TRUTH, as in I am the Way and the Truth…Jesus.]. The supreme** religious deception** is that of the Antichrist, [not a person as most assume, but*]*** a pseudo-messianism**** by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh**.
So far so good.
We know it is going to happen, because it is a “must”.
We know it will be a “final** trial**”, or testing, and, none will come after it.
The persecution is against the Catholic Church, not any Protestant or other sect.
What Faith will be shaken or even lost?
Well, there are 3 aspects:
The persecution has as its objective, “religious deception” on a massive scale.
Protestants are not the target, they have been living a deception for centuries, and most are quite comfortable in it.
The Catholic is the Target…you, me, and all the catholic world.
One way to propagate such an unprecedented deception would be to set up an ape church of the Catholic one and pose it as the catholic church. Then adjust it in the eyes of the believers to get the greatest number to accept it as the catholic institution. This is done in part by ongoing doublespeak and placating the wary.
When that is accomplished then the “supreme” deception is introduced.
This is where we are now, at the Introduction of the Supreme deception.
To be Continued……
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It may take more than 1 post:
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The Sede position is but one way to reconcile the near universal rise of evil WITHIN this New Order church’s “clergy” i.e. unprecedented embezzlements in size, frequency & longevity, rape of same-sex youth , the lack of action, except protection & coverup, on these matters by its highest leaders, the collapse of its religious vocations, the vulcanic explosion of divorce under the guise of anullments , its friendship and fascination toward the sin that cries out to heaven for vengence, the man centered theology of its members & leaders, its distorted “worship” services, its Masonic inspired edifices, its idea of salvation for anti-Christ religions, its constant double-speak and finally the overthrow of all traditional catholicism and the practices that sustained and grew the Catholic Church for so many centuries.
**RE: **If the Church is all that, it surely isn’t the one Peter established.
One step forward.
So that leaves the Protestants.
One step backward.
Oh wait, there is the SSPX and the independent Catholic groups.
One step forward.
Now here’s what your catechism says:
675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a** final trial** that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution [most think in terms of bloody martyring, but that is not what is to happen. The persecution is not against individuals, but the Body of Christ, i.e. The Church as an a Divine Institution.] that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth ****[The truth in this case is the TRUTH, as in I am the Way and the Truth…Jesus.]. The supreme** religious deception** is that of the Antichrist, [not a person as most assume, but*]*** a pseudo-messianism**** by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh**.
So far so good.
We know it is going to happen, because it is a “must”.
We know it will be a “final** trial**”, or testing, and, none will come after it.
The persecution is against the Catholic Church, not any Protestant or other sect.
What Faith will be shaken or even lost?
Well, there are 3 aspects:
- The belief in the truth and/or accuracy of Divine revelation.
- The belief in the Catholic Church’s moral Laws.
- The belief in the only true form of worship to their Creator.
There are sub-beliefs but the above covers them.
The persecution has as its objective, “religious deception” on a massive scale.
Protestants are not the target, they have been living a deception for centuries, and most are quite comfortable in it.
The Catholic is the Target…you, me, and all the catholic world.
One way to propagate such an unprecedented deception would be to set up an ape church of the Catholic one and pose it as the catholic church. Then adjust it in the eyes of the believers to get the greatest number to accept it as the catholic institution. This is done in part by ongoing doublespeak and placating the wary.
When that is accomplished then the “supreme” deception is introduced.
This is where we are now, at the Introduction of the Supreme deception.
To be Continued……
====================
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TNT
Guest
Not at all:
In ref to shaking the faith of believers they ref
"LK 18:8: I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth? "
“MT 24:12: And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold.”
In ref to persecution of the church they ref
“LK 21:12: But before all these [end time] things, they will lay their hands upon you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, dragging you before kings and governors, for my name’s sake.”
This BEFORE has indeed already happened.And has happened before the ultimate persecution AFTER that.
“JN 15:19-20: If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20 Remember my word that I said to you: The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you: if they have kept my word, they will keep yours also.”
It either means only those desciples He addressing, or all future successors in which case it may include the entire church and its faithful members.
I submit there is no conflict at all, as the Church is the Mystical Body of the Master. There is no greater persecution of the Faithful than to eclipse their entire church.
In ref to the final antichrist as a false ISM they ref
"2TH 2:4-12: This is a long set of verses, but I offered no interpretation from the the catechism which literally states it to be an ISM as opposed to just one person.
“2JN 7: For yourselves know perfectly, that the day of the Lord shall so come, as a thief in the night. 3 For when** they shall say, peace** and security; then shall sudden destruction come upon them, as the pains upon her that is with child, and they shall not escape.”
“2JN 2:22: Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father;” (The vs 23 was left out because it would point straight at the Jewish religion as well as Islam). Ok, it was just an oversight. But it does add descriptive value to the antichrist.
Notice that the catechism which clearly states that the antichrist is in the FORM of a Messianism. not person:
“The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, **a pseudo-messianism **by which man glorifies himself …”
Yet their bible verses refer to a person or group of persons.
So, I do not see any dichotomy in my post & the catechism.
That’s the point.
It would indeed be the Supreme deception. And, the only deception that would include the greatest number possible to be deceived…nearly the whole catholic membership.
By any standard, would that not be a Supreme Deception?
If not, then what would be?
It also coincides perfectly with the LK18:8 that they reference:
"LK 18:8: I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth? "
====================
We haven’t gotten to Par 677 yet.
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TNT
Guest
Continued:
Now here again is what your catechism says:
****677 **The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.578 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.579 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.580
**IN BRIEF **
**680 **Christ the Lord already reigns through the Church, but all the things of this world are not yet subjected to him. The triumph of Christ’s kingdom will not come about without one last assault by the powers of evil.
So, for those who think that the SEDE’s need to produce some impossible popup pope in the future, you are not looking at your own catechism.
The Final SUPREME (CCC) deception is in full ascendency. The Catholic Church is moving into eclipse. That is, The Catholic church is currently "following her Lord in his death…"
It goes on to cover the apparent lack of restoration of the Catholic from this death blow:
**not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy **but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
It goes on to further relate about how the church will be restored or triumph, and WHEN:
The triumph of Christ’s kingdom will not come about without one last assault by the powers of evil.
This is where we are today; In the "ONE last assault by the powers of evil."
In Summary, there will be no popup pope to restore the Catholic Church. The SUPREME deception will prevent it and will deceive nearly every Catholic with it first.
So, for all you VAT II religionists. Pick up that CCC and read. Plan on how you will not be caught in the SUPREME Deception…or more likely, how you will get out of it
The End.
**
Now here again is what your catechism says:
****677 **The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.578 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.579 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.580
**IN BRIEF **
**680 **Christ the Lord already reigns through the Church, but all the things of this world are not yet subjected to him. The triumph of Christ’s kingdom will not come about without one last assault by the powers of evil.
So, for those who think that the SEDE’s need to produce some impossible popup pope in the future, you are not looking at your own catechism.
The Final SUPREME (CCC) deception is in full ascendency. The Catholic Church is moving into eclipse. That is, The Catholic church is currently "following her Lord in his death…"
It goes on to cover the apparent lack of restoration of the Catholic from this death blow:
**not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy **but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
It goes on to further relate about how the church will be restored or triumph, and WHEN:
The triumph of Christ’s kingdom will not come about without one last assault by the powers of evil.
This is where we are today; In the "ONE last assault by the powers of evil."
In Summary, there will be no popup pope to restore the Catholic Church. The SUPREME deception will prevent it and will deceive nearly every Catholic with it first.
So, for all you VAT II religionists. Pick up that CCC and read. Plan on how you will not be caught in the SUPREME Deception…or more likely, how you will get out of it
The End.
**
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estesbob
Guest
rather read through 4 semi-coherent posts let me summrize TNTs position:
- The catechism can not be trusted
- The Cathecism proves my thesis
- If you disagree with 2 refer to1
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Confused_1_1
Guest
What is their proposal? perhaps we can dig up some dead Pope and wait for him to give orders.
Or…we can list to the dimond brothers who’s naive obsession seems to propose that a magesterium and plethora of learned theologians with a cumulative experience of 1000’s of years is wrong and they are in the right.
Sure…talking about a leap of faith.
Or…we can list to the dimond brothers who’s naive obsession seems to propose that a magesterium and plethora of learned theologians with a cumulative experience of 1000’s of years is wrong and they are in the right.
Sure…talking about a leap of faith.
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cam100
Guest
Sorry, TNT, but you still haven’t demonstrated how the Catechism provides evidence that the papacy will be interrupted for an extended time. Nothing in the quoted passages of the Catechism indicates this. You’ve come up with this idea that the papacy will stop and nearly the entire Catholic world, including the hierarchy, will follow a man who is not the pope. I agree that, yes, this would be a great deception, but it is not the only way a great deception could occur, and it doesn’t seem to fit well with other Church teachings on the papacy. You seem to think that this is the ONLY definition of “supreme deception”. You are willing to stretch the teachings of the Church to fit this idea so that it all seems to fit together.
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estesbob
Guest
Refer to 1.
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TNT
Guest
Very well. May we have this other “way a great (actually SUPREME) deception could occur.” ?
While you’re thinking on that I will state that I do not know of any other way to bring about a “SUPREME” (aka NONE greater) Deception than to have nearly an entire catholic membership follow a man appearing to be the blessed pope.
How else could such a massive deception be perpetrated without a trumpeted warning from the true pope to all the world and thus immediately expose the deception, thus making it ineffective?
That’s where I: “come up with this idea that the papacy will stop and nearly the entire Catholic world, including the hierarchy, will follow a man who is not the pope.”
The CCC says it will be successful like nothing before it or after it. Even the Arian crisis then would fall short of it We lost 90% of the episcopate to that one…
I did not stretch anything at all. I’m simply giving what I see as a necessary set of criteria for this Supreme deception to ever have a chance to succeed in its Supremacy against the entire catholic population.
But I remain open to other ways this could be achieved.
It was a thoughtful post though, thanks.
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latinmass
Guest
No one can touch you TNT. You have all the party liners speechless. Thank you for making them think.
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estesbob
Guest
I didny realize you were a Sedevantist. Thats explains a lot.
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Sure
Guest
Greatest. Post. Ever.
TNT,
Where does it say that there will be a time with no Pope…or is that just how you are interpreting Supreme Deception?
Perhaps the Supreme Deception could be where there is a Pope but practically no one follows him because they are doing whatever they want?
Thanks
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estesbob
Guest
*No one can touch you Sure . You have all the party liners speechless. Thank you for making them think.
*
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Sure
Guest
Why thank you!*No one can touch you Sure . You have all the party liners speechless. Thank you for making them think.
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latinmass
Guest
Don’t assume. Nobody has answered TNT’s question directly on the CCC. Can you? I’m not a sede yet, but I don’t like it when the brothers dodge questions.
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Sure
Guest
Post 53 offers an alternative to the “no Pope” scenario.
Here are some more:
- The Pope is kidnapped and no one knows where he is or if he is alive. The Church proceeds to be led astray by dissident bishops.
- Millions disregard Church law and begin attending Masses by the SSPX and ignoring the Pope and instead following Bishop Fellay.
- An anti-Catholic “humanist” world government bans the practice of the Faith and persecutes Catholics. Millions apostasize in order to save their own lives.
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estesbob
Guest
iHave you read the enitre thread? It has been answered and refuted numerous times. it simply does not say what he says it does. What is even more specious is he tells us we cant trust the cathecism but uses it to bolster his position
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estesbob
Guest
The Pope is secretly kidnapped by aliens and Elvis Presely is put in his place. The Cathecism is replaced by rolling Stone magazine and millions of catholics perish when they protest this.
I beleive this is foretold in Paragraph 666 in the Cathecism
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