Open Marriage Friends

[PilgrimSong]

No. I am not saying this at all. Sex outside my marriage is almost irrelevant. It’s not about sex. I could have sex or not; it doesn’t matter. It’s about relationship. It’s about the way I relate to my husband. It’s about the way I relate to myself. It’s about the way I view the world. It’s about the way I trust God and follow where He leads me.
Jasmine

Jasmine, if you could " have sex or not" and it “doesn’t matter”, then why have sex with these other men? Why does your friendship with some other men include sex?

Sex is viewed pretty casually in our world by many in our hookup culture. But sex isn’t just a fleeting pleasure, an enjoyable way to pass the time. It is sacred. God made us male and female so that we could marry and have families, and in this way image the Creator. Not all marriages are blessed with children, of course. These marriages can still be valid and reflect God’s love. When a married couple enjoys the marital embrace, they are renewing their covenant with each other. They are giving their complete “yes” to each other and holding nothing back. You can’t do that with someone to whom you aren’t married. Sure, you can have sex with someone who is not your spouse, but you cannot renew your covenant with him or her.

What I share with my husband is something sacred, a part of me that I share with no one else. It is not out of fear that I remain faithful to him, but out of my love for him.

I realize the above is the Catholic view of married love, but then this is a Catholic forum.

The Bible is pretty clear. “Thou shalt to commit adultery.” God is not a big meanie trying to smack us down or keep us from having fun or pursuing self-fulfillment. He is a God of love Who has our best interests at heart. Adultery is not a sin against property. It is a sin against charity. Sure, lots of people do it. Lots of people tell lies, steal, and commit many other sins. That doesn’t mean sin is acceptable or unavoidable. I means we live in a fallen world and we need God’s grace to follow His way, the higher road. When we fall, He calls us back to repentance out of love for Him.

Have you ever really looked at the Catholic Church and her teachings? It is not a big list of thou shalt nots, a list of rules to follow. It is truth, goodness, and beauty. Maybe you could look into it. I invite you to do so. Real love is sacrificial. It is not self-seeking. It is Jesus pouring Himself out for us, His very life, on the cross and rising again to bring us the fullness of life in Him. He founded a church upon the apostles which still continues to this day, bringing us His life in the sacraments, the life of the Church.

God bless you.

 

[PilgrimSong]

I think everyone has been helpful here and now may be a good time to call a draw here. I am going to pray on this and do what’s right. Curtain please

Sorry, silent factor, I posted before I read this.

 

[manualman]

… People in open marriages are subjected to just such dismissal of their feelings and opinions on a regular basis. Do you suppose that OP’s friends might have been subject to such dismissals in this thread?

Oh, wait – that’s not what you meant? You were referring to my comment about fears raised by open marriage? Perhaps I should cite the bases of my comment:

I suppose it makes you feel better to label these concerns we have as “fears” but the reality is that catholicism bases its teaching on marriage on both revelation and reason. The bedrock of catholic moral theology is that sins are sins precisely because they damage our ability to give and receive love. Sins aren’t behaviors arbitrarily listed on a “Do Not” list. The list exists as a form of guard rail to protect us against known hazards that kill, maim and destroy souls.

Not only has the church always upheld the divine origins of monogamous and faithful marriage, but so did Jesus himself. As others have mentioned, he didn’t defend the behavior of the woman caught in adultery (If she was “caught,” where’s the man?), he just refused to single her sin out as worse than those of the others. He never condoned it and he DID admonish her to sin no more.

Beyond revelation, the social science is about as devastatingly clear as it can be: sexually unfaithful relationships don’t work, not even if they are ‘openly’ unfaithful. Not that I’m calling you a liar, mind you. Abberations exist (my grandmother lived to 90 smoking several packs a day, but she hardly disproves the assertion that smoking is harmful to your health). As a web forum, we can only take your word for it about your own life, but anecdotes are no match for sociological data. You won’t find a reputable sociologist who will endorse the idea that “open marriages” can inherently be healthy, supportive, loving and stable.

Worse, there ARE legitimate “fears” here. Catholicism in America has been down this road before. In the 1960’s the guard was somewhat let down in regards to the “old” restrictions on sexual expression and morality. It was a theological fad among theologians and even priests to assert that sexual ‘freedom of expression’ had no negative consequences and freed its participants from all the “repression” that had plagued their lives. The fruit of THAT little experiment was several billion dollars in lawsuits and many shattered lives in priestly sex scandals lasting decades. Thanks, but no thanks on the reprise. We’ll stick to what GOD tells us about the meaning and purpose of human sexuality.

 

[silentfactor80]

Sorry, silent factor, I posted before I read this.

No worries! We are forgiving people but no harm done!

 

[holyrood]

Jasmine, I have deleted my response to the rest in favor of focusing on this:

I think the implication in these discussions as a general rule is that if we examine our fears, we’ll find they were all groundless, which is why your comments about fear look dismissive to me. This raises the question in my mind: all the quotes you posted as fears–am I correct in thinking you regard them as groundless and/or irrational fears?

 

[JasmineGld]

I am a little uncomfortable responding when OP has asked to close the topic. At the same time, a few points seem important to respond to, so I will ask the OP’s forgiveness and forge ahead. Would someone like to start a new thread? I do not feel that I ought to start one.

I think the implication in these discussions as a general rule is that if we examine our fears, we’ll find they were all groundless, which is why your comments about fear look dismissive to me.

I stated that fears had been expressed on the thread and that their existence needs to be acknowledged. For two of those expressed fears, I stated that they were without foundation.

Fear for youth in the youth program at church. The fact that adults engage in adult activity with other adults in no way puts youth at any greater risk than with any other adults. Safeguards always need to be in place for all youth programming with any and all adult leaders. OP posted that such is already the case.

Fear for the friends’ own children. Again, the fact that adults engage in adult activity with other adults in no way puts their children at any greater risk than the children of any other adults. All across the country, there are children who are being raised in homes with non-monogamous parents. Most of these parents are very quiet and closeted about it, so people around them, including fellow churchgoers, just don’t know.

This raises the question in my mind: all the quotes you posted as fears–am I correct in thinking you regard them as groundless and/or irrational fears?

Not at all. Other than the two fears listed above, I made no statement that any others were without foundation.

For example, the fear of scandal is based in reality. At the same time, it would not hold public interest any time at all, as long as consenting adults are the only ones involved. Maybe scandal within the church would be more of an issue.

The fear of loss is based in reality. Whenever we learn something new that we did not want to know, things can never be the same as they were before.

The fear that they might be harmed by their own actions is based in reality. It is a compassionate fear, a Love Thy Neighbor concern.

Arguments can be made both pro and con on whether the basis in reality for these fears therefore constitutes a reason to oppose/prohibit the relationship structure or ostracize people who choose it. Arguments can be made about what the appropriate response is upon learning of such a marriage.

Even so, these fears are undeniably grounded in reality.

Jasmine

 

[JasmineGld]

… anecdotes are no match for sociological data. You won’t find a reputable sociologist who will endorse the idea that “open marriages” can inherently be healthy, supportive, loving and stable.

Oh, but I already have. I have spoken with several reputable sociologists and psychologists on the topic. It has been a presentation topic at the American Psychiatric Association.

The Status of Children in Polyamorous Families
Elisabeth Sheff, PhD
docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:SNx9tA9SwR8J:elisabethsheff.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/american-psychiatric-association-2012-children-in-poly-families2.pptx+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjBwvEbw8bUPlzjXjqqEFKeQjgf3Dz4uFxB-aMnvn0JlSWPJPlMTMUqTc7s4me_NDmxzpr2e6tb3U0X2Q_uzsUlvBk0jbEwCJNgeIeZmntayQ85BMwdYydDjFCWRd4jogrPoEMj&sig=AHIEtbShnke8wIKPYdZVpwg86yeK-6d6sg

Panel Presentation at 2012 American Psychiatric Association Meeting
May 9, 2012 in Philadelphia, PA.
“The panel was organized by Bill Slaughter, M.D., and involved a presentation by sociologist Dr. Elisabeth Sheff, on her ongoing study of polyamorous families with children.”
carasresearch.org/images/uploads/A_Review_of_the_Research_on_Polyamory.pdf

Worse, there ARE legitimate “fears” here. Catholicism in America has been down this road before.

Yes, I agree that there are legitimate fears. Sometimes they are different than the first gut-reaction fears. Sometimes we need to spend some time listening to each other to figure out which fears mean what.

manualman, your posts were among the posts where I found wisdom. Your posts were measured and focused on the well-being of the friends. You avoided accusatory language and attacks.

manualman, I don’t agree with all that you say. Maybe I don’t agree with much that you say. But I agree with your approach. And sometimes, at the very beginning of the conversations, that is most important of all.

Jasmine

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

I am disappointed that this thread has been hijacked by someone who wants to start a discussion about the value of “open marriages.” The OP asked a question about to deal with a situation in their life. Instead it is all about one brand new members lifestyle that is in complete opposition to Catholic teaching and their attempt to “help us out” by answering our questions. If you want to be an apologist for sexual sin, start your own thread, and for those CAF members who want to engage this conversation (which personally I don’t think deserves an outlet), please stick with a new thread. I certainly don’t have an interest in debating this topic and it is clear that the OP doesn’t either. Let’s end this please.

 

[robwar]

I am disappointed that this thread has been hijacked by someone who wants to start a discussion about the value of “open marriages.” The OP asked a question about to deal with a situation in their life. Instead it is all about one brand new members lifestyle that is in complete opposition to Catholic teaching and their attempt to “help us out” by answering our questions. If you want to be an apologist for sexual sin, start your own thread, and for those CAF members who want to engage this conversation (which personally I don’t think deserves an outlet), please stick with a new thread. I certainly don’t have an interest in debating this topic and it is clear that the OP doesn’t either. Let’s end this please.

agree 100% and it is hijacked by someone who is not Catholic and coming from an extremely liberal position. I am surprised the thread has not been shut down. Sex is designed by God between one man and one women in marriage only period. Anything else is adultery and wrong. Those who want to promote with “open marriage” are being dishonest in that people who engage in it damage their marriage, their bodies and their own soul with God. They don’t work and the novel idea that was pushed in the 70’s in a book called “Open Marriages” only had their ideas result in broken marriages and homes. The happiest people are those who follow God’s plan for sex and marriage and anything else results in destruction and hell.

 

[manualman]

It’s not really a hijack, it’s directly related to the thread topic.

While none of us here are going to be persuaded that Jasmine’s approach to marriage is healthy or moral, you gotta admire the fervor she has for spreading her ideas (even if they’re nutty - no offense J!).

Isn’t it interesting that swingers, communists, homosexual activists, abortionists and a whole host of other “-ists” have such a fervor to covnert others to their convictions while the vast majority of nominal christians are content to warm a pew once a week?

 

[Cider]

I hear what you are saying but with all due respect to you, they are not pedophiles nor are their actions illegal! Granted they are not living Catholic lives but without proof of their actual activities I have nothing to base my claims on!! I could tell a pastor and they could deny it! They are never alone with the youth at anytime as there is ALWAYS multiple adults around. If they said anything counter-Catholic they would be confronted immediately.

Why do you keep saying it’s a he said she said and that you have no proof. They admitted it to you themselves. That is proof. They confessed it to you just as criminals sometimes confess their crimes to the police. I would go to your pastor and tell him. Parents do want their kids being lead and taught by people that are stubbornly manifest in grave sin and if it was my kids, and I found out you knew and said nothing I’d be extremely unhappy with you for that.

 

[Cider]

agree 100% and it is hijacked by someone who is not Catholic and coming from an extremely liberal position. I am surprised the thread has not been shut down. Sex is designed by God between one man and one women in marriage only period. Anything else is adultery and wrong. Those who want to promote with “open marriage” are being dishonest in that people who engage in it damage their marriage, their bodies and their own soul with God. They don’t work and the novel idea that was pushed in the 70’s in a book called “Open Marriages” only had their ideas result in broken marriages and homes. The happiest people are those who follow God’s plan for sex and marriage and anything else results in destruction and hell.

I agree, it’s a hijack. I’ve made the decision to ignore those posts so as not to contribute to taking this thread further off the subject of how the OP should handle the situation happening at her parish.

 

[silentfactor80]

Why do you keep saying it’s a he said she said and that you have no proof. They admitted it to you themselves. That is proof. They confessed it to you just as criminals sometimes confess their crimes to the police. I would go to your pastor and tell him. Parents do want their kids being lead and taught by people that are stubbornly manifest in grave sin and if it was my kids, and I found out you knew and said nothing I’d be extremely unhappy with you for that.

I said that because the pastor would have no other proof than my word. They could easily deny what I said and then it is the 2 of them versus me with just a “they told me.” I will take care of this and I have suggested to them that maybe youth group in a Catholic Church isn’t for them. The Church teaches what it teaches and there is no changing that. If one cannot abide then one cannot advocate for it.

 

[PatriceA]

I said that because the pastor would have no other proof than my word. They could easily deny what I said and then it is the 2 of them versus me with just a “they told me.” I will take care of this and I have suggested to them that maybe youth group in a Catholic Church isn’t for them. The Church teaches what it teaches and there is no changing that. If one cannot abide then one cannot advocate for it.

How did they take your suggestion that being involved in the youth group may not be a good idea?

 

[silentfactor80]

How did they take your suggestion that being involved in the youth group may not be a good idea?

They said they understood where I was coming from and would think about it.

 

[The_Bucket]

I still don’t see why you didn’t just tell them that you’d bring it to the pastor’s attention and then go ahead and do that. If they think there’s nothing wrong with it then they should have no problem telling a priest about their behavior.

 

[PatriceA]

They said they understood where I was coming from and would think about it.

Well then I’m praying that they see the error of their ways, at least they are willing to consider that their activity in the youth group may not be best for all.

 

[robwar]

It’s not really a hijack, it’s directly related to the thread topic.

While none of us here are going to be persuaded that Jasmine’s approach to marriage is healthy or moral, you gotta admire the fervor she has for spreading her ideas (even if they’re nutty - no offense J!).

Isn’t it interesting that swingers, communists, homosexual activists, abortionists and a whole host of other “-ists” have such a fervor to covnert others to their convictions while the vast majority of nominal christians are content to warm a pew once a week?

A lot of people have fervor for their ideas but if the ideas are dead wrong and lead to evil then should we say “your a nut but I like your fervor?” Hitler had fervor and so did his followers. Lenin, Mao, etc had fervor but look at the destruction and death that resulted from their fervor.

 

[manualman]

Exactly my point Robwar. Sad, isn’t it that globally the ideas of Marx and Lenin inspired so many people to devote their lives to it while at the same time God himself offered His Son’s life in order to reoncile us to Him and yet so many of us think we’re doing Him a favor by showing up to mass once a week (and little else in our faith lives).

Just a challenging thought. One can admire dedication and fervor without admiring the subject of it.

 

[Cider]

I said that because the pastor would have no other proof than my word. They could easily deny what I said and then it is the 2 of them versus me with just a “they told me.” I will take care of this and I have suggested to them that maybe youth group in a Catholic Church isn’t for them. The Church teaches what it teaches and there is no changing that. If one cannot abide then one cannot advocate for it.

And yet they did get involved and continued to participate in youth groups already knowing that it’s against church teaching. I don’t think one lay person that is keeping their secret is going to change their minds. The pastor can do that though since he has the authority, once he knows the truth that is.

I think you need to be less concerned about yourself and them possibly denying what they told you and more concerned about your church and the kids that they are in charge of.