Open Theism Vs Unmoved-Mover

[MindOverMatter]

Some people think that the rational unchanging God of metaphysics does not accurately describe the God of the bible. The God of Abraham appears to be changing and interacting in a manner expressive of a being that is mobile. Thus the advocates of Open-Theism are calling for a change in our meta-physical or supposedly un-biblical conceptions of God, and are opting for a being that changes in time.

I fear that Open-Theism could do a lot of damage to are conception of God by rendering our God irrational or un-biblical.

What do you feel about Open-Theism? Has Christianity been corrupted by the philosophy of Aristotle and Plato? Is Open Theism the way forward, or is it a step backwards in regards to our metaphysical achievements?

 

[Oreoracle]

Metaphysical achievements? Even if I found the musings of apologists to be impressive, there really is no standard we can use to judge the truth value of metaphysical statements–they are entirely speculative.

For example: Everything in the universe has to have a cause? Prove it!

 

[JDaniel]

Metaphysical achievements? Even if I found the musings of apologists to be impressive, there really is no standard we can use to judge the truth value of metaphysical statements–they are entirely speculative.

For example: Everything in the universe has to have a cause? Prove it!

No. There’s not enough time. All you have to do is show me that there is one thing, one little old thingy, that wasn’t caused. It would be far more meaningfull and far, far more efficient if you did that, rather than waiting around for me to go through the entire list of existing thingys.

jd

 

[Oreoracle]

No. There’s not enough time. All you have to do is show me that there is one thing, one little old thingy, that wasn’t caused. It would be far more meaningfull and far, far more efficient if you did that, rather than waiting around for me to go through the entire list of existing thingys.

jd

I think you know that’s the point, my friend.

Even if you went through a catalog of everything that exists, proving that they were all caused while doing so, it would only prove that everything currently in existence has been caused. It will not prove that there is a force dictating they must be caused.

 

[MindOverMatter]

I think you know that’s the point, my friend.

Even if you went through a catalog of everything that exists, proving that they were all caused while doing so, it would only prove that everything currently in existence has been caused. It will not prove that there is a force dictating they must be caused.

I suppose you believe that things just pop in to existence out of absolutely nothing.

Nice magic trick. The first one i have ever seen with out a magician!

 

[Matthias123]

I think you know that’s the point, my friend.

Even if you went through a catalog of everything that exists, proving that they were all caused while doing so, it would only prove that everything currently in existence has been caused. It will not prove that there is a force dictating they must be caused.

Fine I see your scepticism and I raise it by 10!

Everything you sense is an illusion. Please prove otherwise, I want to know if I really exist.

 

[Oreoracle]

I suppose you believe that things just pop in to existence out of absolutely nothing.
There is no reason to believe such a thing can never happen. If there was proof for such an assertion, you would have surely provided it instead of making assumptions about my beliefs.

Nice magic trick. The first one i have ever seen with out a magician!

Cute.

 

[MindOverMatter]

There is no reason to believe such a thing can never happen. If there was proof of such a belief, you would have surely provided it instead of making assumptions about my beliefs.

Once one understands the meaning of the term nothing, there is every reason to believe that it is impossible. In fact the idea of something coming out of nothing is just as improbable and meaningless as 2+2 equaling 2 million.

In other words its impossible.

 

[Oreoracle]

Fine I see your scepticism and I raise it by 10!

Everything you sense is an illusion. Please prove otherwise, I want to know if I really exist.

I can’t prove that my senses truly relate information from the outside world. Metaphysics allows for this degree of skepticism, which is why I think metaphysical arguments are useless. The field quite literally has no preconceptions, rules, or axioms.

 

[Oreoracle]

Once one understands the meaning of the term nothing, there is every reason to believe that it is impossible. In fact the idea of something coming out of nothing is just as improbable and meaningless as 2+2 equaling 2 million.

In other words its impossible.

The principles mathematics is based on are not necessarily representative of the structure of reality. And just because something is “improbable and meaningless” doesn’t mean it’s impossible.

 

[MindOverMatter]

I can’t prove that my senses truly relate information from the outside world.

Then you cannot believe that science is valid route to truth.

 

[Matthias123]

I can’t prove that my senses truly relate information from the outside world. Metaphysics allows for this degree of skepticism, which is why I think metaphysical arguments are useless. The field quite literally has no preconceptions, rules, or axioms.

Metaphysics is what we use to address such problems. Do you have a better way to address them? Or shoud we just not address them?

 

[Oreoracle]

Then you cannot believe that science is valid route to truth.

Quite right. I can’t believe it is an infallible route. Then again, I don’t attribute infallibility to any method.

 

[Oreoracle]

Metaphysics is what we use to address such problems. Do you have a better way to address them? Or shoud we just not address them?

Well, this is just my personal opinion, but I don’t think the origin or nature (mostly) of the universe is relevant to my life. Again, it’s just my opinion.

 

[MindOverMatter]

The principles mathematics is based on are not necessarily representative of the structure of reality.

I know.
But there are some valid connections between mathematical truth and objective truth.
So its up to you to show my arguement to be tautological.

And just because something is “improbable and meaningless” doesn’t mean it’s impossible.

If something is meaningless, then it is not real or intelligible. Surely you are not saying that a thing can exist and not exist at the same time are you? If thats your mode of thinking, i don’t think your in any position to determine whats reasonable and what is not.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Well, this is just my personal opinion, but I don’t think the origin or nature (mostly) of the universe is relevant to my life. Again, it’s just my opinion.

The origin of thing is the reason why your here, so i would be concerned if i was you. Or perhaps thats just the way you want it to be.

Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

 

[Oreoracle]

If something is meaningless, then it is not real or intelligible. Surely you are not saying that a thing can exist and not exist at the same time are you? If thats your mode of thinking, i don’t think your in any position to determine whats reasonable and what is not.

What do you mean by “meaning?” I always thought that meaning is created and assigned by subjects. It doesn’t actually exist as an object or quality of an object.

 

[MindOverMatter]

What do you mean by “meaning?” I always thought that meaning is created and assigned by subjects. It doesn’t actually exist as an object or quality of an object.

What does that mean? If you don’t know what meaning is, I’m not going to explain it to you.

 

[Oreoracle]

The origin of thing is the reason why your here, so i would be concerned if i was you. Or perhaps thats just the way you want it to be.

Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

I’m not rejecting knowledge, I just don’t care to investigate some things. I don’t desire ignorance, I’m just indifferent toward some concepts. It’s like me saying, “You don’t want to read my book about gardening?! Ignorance is bliss, as they say!”

 

[Matthias123]

Things cannot come out of nothing because greater cannot come from less, and more perfect cannot come from less perfect because the latter is incapable of producing that effect.