Open Theism Vs Unmoved-Mover

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Okay. But there aren’t any deep, non-obvious metaphysical truths that science is based on - nothing that you would need to take a class in Metaphysics in order to learn before you can do science, as some philosophy majors at my school have occasionally claimed.
The Philosophy of Science entails a detailed study of the relation of science to metaphysics and epistemology which leads to conclusions which are far from obvious.
Where do you locate “you”? How would you show scientifically that you (not your body) exist?
The best explanation would be my haecceitas, which is of course a philosophical explanation. My understanding (from a 100-level class, though) is that psychology can’t give us an answer to that question, so that’s one question science can’t answer - at least not yet.
It requires an act of faith in science to suppose that it ever will…
A philosopher sitting in his chair has no right to judge that proven and tested scientific theories are false - that’s the height of arrogance.
There is no reason why there should be a conflict between philosophy and science. The problem usually arises when scientists extend their conclusions to reality as a whole.
Do you accept any spiritual or theological truths? If so why?
Yes. Because I saw the miracle of Lanciano, so I became Catholic.
One more nail in the coffin of scientism!
Do you base all your beliefs, values and ideals on science? Do you base your moral and political decisions on science? Would you choose a friend or a life partner for scientific reasons?.
(1) No. (2) Science has nothing to say about either morals or politics, so no. (3) No (although I do choose friends based on their interest in science - but that’s not what you were asking).
More nails in its coffin!
Although it’s logically possible that I don’t think. Lunacy does not concern me, however.
For the sake of completeness it is necessary to consider logical possibilities although I agree they are usually so improbable they are not worth considering.
Why do you believe in free will?
Experience.
Another nail in the coffin of scientism! (If you mean personal experience.)
How do you know philosophy has not explained the origin of free will in human beings?
You’re perfectly free to explain it to me if it has.
How about the explanation that it is an aspect of Ultimate Reality?
Regarding non-material reality, I don’t really trust any explanation other than revealed dogma, because they are just as epistemologically valid as the old philosophical explanations of matter, which we now know to be false.
Revealed dogma consists largely of metaphysical propositions, e.g. the nature of God and man.
So why should metaphysics be any more reliable?
It is obviously not more reliable than truths revealed by God but it supplements faith by providing a rational foundation which satisfies such criteria as coherence, consistency and correspondence to our personal experience of life.
Aquinas himself thought that metaphysics was less reliable than Aristotelian physics.
I am surprised:
“In the thought and writings of St. Thomas Aquinas, metaphysics holds an honored place among the speculative rational sciences and philosophical disciplines. It is the queen of rational disciplines and receives the name of wisdom…”
www.aquinasonline.com/Topics/metaphys.html
 
I can’t really disagree with anything in the previous post. Regarding metaphysics being less certain, I think I got that from Aquinas’ commentary on Boethius; give me a couple days and I will try to read it over again to find a quotation to back myself up.

I’m not trying to argue for “scientism” - against religion, the arts, or even philosophy itself (as distinguished from philosophical systems, schools, and positions such as Aristotelianism which are in conflict with the facts that we know from science) - however, I do believe quite strongly in the validity, autonomy, and truth of science. Science just has nothing to say about God, or ethics, or free will or anything. You don’t see Dawkins writing his sort of books in serious scientific journals - he markets his atheism to a popular audience. It’s not science, and no scientific journal would publish his non-scientific writings for that reason.

I frankly haven’t seen any “scientism” of this sort at college, probably because I go to a Catholic school. I have seen, however, philosophy students and professors who will not accept scientific consensus as an authority, and who will simply deny anything that happens to contradict their philosophy - such as the vacuum. This drives me nuts. Science is true, and provides in my opinion an extremely vast wealth of data that philosophers can use to then “build up” a coherent and complete metaphysics. I wanted to do this project, so I majored in physics - for precisely philosophical purposes.
 
How about the explanation that it is an aspect of Ultimate Reality?
I do have problems with this “explanation”, however, because it doesn’t really explain anything. God is free - how does that tell us what it means to be free, and whether (or in what sense) our choices are caused or not? It isn’t “Ultimate Reality” - an awfully vague term - that I’m interested in; I want to know how I (the limited, individual “me”) goes about choosing something freely.
 
Revealed dogma consists largely of metaphysical propositions, e.g. the nature of God and man.
Someone - it may have been Alfred North Whitehead, or more likely Bertrand Russell - once said that philosophy consists of giving bad reasons for what you already know to be true, and this rings true for me for a lot of philosophical attempts to prove metaphysical propositions we know from Revelation.

(Or just from common sense. Have you ever seen a primitive tribe which did not believe in God or the gods or something which, even if it started out as a flawed attempt to explain natural phenomena, ended up as a genuinely religious phenomenon? I believe that there is only one such tribe on the anthropological record, and I can’t remember where they were.)
 
I am practicing as a Catholic according to the laws of the Church,
What laws?
Out of respect for his sanctity I didn’t mention Aquinas’ name, but I am not a Thomist and am both utterly confounded and nauseated as to why Catholics will not give him up
Do you not believe that Aquinas should be regarded as Doctor of the Universal Church? Do you think he should not be patron of all Catholic universities, colleges, and schools? Do you think he should be de-canonized as a saint?
when the physics he based is work on is found to be faulty.
We’re going to require, of you, some evidence for this bold assertion. Would you mind providing such as you can?
His synthesis was founded on the laudable (and true) belief that faith and reason are compatible, but his Aristotelian grounding was the contribution of reason, not faith, and when Reason has abandoned Aristotle, Catholics have no reason to cling to him for reasons of faith!
Really. Wow! That’s another bold - atheist-like assertion, again, with absolutely no proof or evidence whatsoever. We’re going to require that you provide some; would you mind?
Theologically, I feel most comfortable with the theological aesthetics of Cardinal Hans Urs von Balthasar as well as the Greek and Oriental Fathers of the Church. I consider myself to be practicing in the Ukrainian rite, which was never influenced by scholastic theology but which still holds the fullness of the Catholic Faith.
Except that they apparently have disowned the sainthood and teachings of Aquinas, whose Summas are the official sumations of Catholic theology, natural theology (metaphysics) and philosophy of the universal Catholic Church.
The philosophy I follow the closest is that of Martin Heidegger
Who was marginally Catholic, especially during the time he worked with the Nazi’s.
However, the only authority I accept in philosophy is that of modern science, since it is known to be true (in this regard alone, I am obviously parting very far from Heidegger!).
Hmmm. Heidegger was also quite big on Aristotle and Aquinas, and not very big on modern science and modern technology. No wonder the confusion.
If I sound like an atheist, it is because I do not believe in a puppeteer God a la al-Ashari;
Please explain this: “a puppeteer God”.
nor do I understand any doctrine of a “prime mover”
On what grounds? Please explain, don’t simply make unfounded assertions. You have made enough of them here to last us a very long time.
(though Aquinas’ intention was obviously to preserve both God’s causality in all matters whatsoever and our freedom).
What do you mean by this statement?
We cannot speak of God “physically” moving our will before any action on our part, or speak of Him predestining us to Heaven against our will, and still consistently talk of human freedom.
Can you re-state this a bit more clearly? In its current form, it is the mother of all confusion.
Nor is God the conclusion given by the science of physics (philosophical or otherwise) or any science which follows deductively from physics.
Please explain.
Laplace was giving perfectly good science when he said that he had no need of that hypothesis. We do not need God as a hypothesis to explain how the world works, or even - within time - how it came into being. (Why the Big Bang should occur, however, is a different question.)
Please explain, if you don’t mind, how one keeps faith with the Catholic Church when none of your hypotheses are Catholic in any sense. Otherwise, please describe how the world works and how it came into being - in time.

jd
 
What laws?

Attendance at Mass on all Sundays and other Holy Days of Obligation, firm adherence to all the dogmas and doctrines of the Faith, abstinence from meat on Fridays, especially in Lent, yearly Communion and Confession, and I have a feeling I might be forgetting one off the top of my head. But I don’t need to answer to you regarding my Catholicism.

Do you not believe that Aquinas should be regarded as Doctor of the Universal Church? Do you think he should not be patron of all Catholic universities, colleges, and schools? Do you think he should be de-canonized as a saint?

(1) Yes, he should be. That doesn’t mean he was infallible. (2) Yes, he was probably the smartest man who ever lived. Still wrong most of the time. (3) Of course not. Why would I think that?

We’re going to require, of you, some evidence for this bold assertion. Would you mind providing such as you can?

(1) Inertia, from which we must also get rid of his idea of teleology (at least when applied to moving objects). (2) Atomism, from which we conclude that his rejection of the vacuum and his idea of “motion” as continuous and simultaneous were wrong. Those are the only two I can think of off the top of my head, but it’s quite well-known that both his physics and his biology have been superseded. This is the first time I’ve ever heard that assertion called “bold” before.

Really. Wow! That’s another bold - atheist-like assertion, again, with absolutely no proof or evidence whatsoever. We’re going to require that you provide some; would you mind?

Was Aristotle divinely inspired? Was he even Christian? So how is acceptance of his philosophy an article of Faith? Has the Church ever claimed that we must accept the philosophy of Aristotle? I would recommend turning to the early Fathers where you will find some pretty harsh denunciations of pagan wisdom. Please quit the rhetoric and personal attacks; disagreeing with Aristotle is not an “atheist-like assertion”.

Except that they apparently have disowned the sainthood and teachings of Aquinas, whose Summas are the official sumations of Catholic theology, natural theology (metaphysics) and philosophy of the universal Catholic Church.

Von Balthasar was named a Cardinal, a prince of the Church, for his theological work. Are you placing yourself above the teaching authority of the Pope? Name me one place where he “disowned the sainthood”, or even the teachings, of Aquinas, before making such serious charges against a man who, being dead, can’t defend himself. Point number two: The Summas are not “official summations” of anything. If you want an official summation of Catholic theology, look at the Catechism of the Council of Trent and the (relatively) new Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has no official philosophy; if Aquinas has primacy, it does not disparage the work of the great modern philosophers, none of whom happened to be Catholic.

Who was marginally Catholic, especially during the time he worked with the Nazi’s.

Actually he had converted to Lutheranism. Your claim is an ad hominem attack, not a valid argument. For charity’s sake I will point out that he did receive the sacraments on his deathbed, which is a little-known fact (since secular histories generally do not care about such unimportant things as the eternal fate of a man’s soul). But Aristotle was not “marginally Catholic”, he was downright pagan.

Hmmm. Heidegger was also quite big on Aristotle and Aquinas, and not very big on modern science and modern technology. No wonder the confusion.

He was more of a fan of Scotus than Aquinas - whom he singled out (along with scholasticism in general, really) as having contributed to the forgetting of being in Western philosophy - and more of a fan of Parmenides than Aristotle. I am perfectly aware of my divergence from Heidegger on certain points; if a hard-core atheistic Heideggerian chooses to take up this debate with me, I will take that moment to protest Heidegger’s errors. I have no need to now. Yet if I had to choose one and only one “philosophy” book (to the exclusion of “non-philosophical” works such as Wordsworth’s Prelude, which contains more true philosophy than all the works of many other philosophers combined) to take with me on a desert island, or to survive a cataclysm as the only patrimony of the philosophical tradition left to the world, it would without a question be “Sein und Zeit”.

Please explain this: “a puppeteer God”.

If God is the prime mover, and I cannot originate any motion on my own without God moving me to do so, then I see no difference between that situation and a puppeteer pulling on strings. I would be very happy if someone could show that this is not the case, since then my autonomy and freedom would be preserved. (I know that this is not what Thomists think they are claiming - and the Church has forbidden us to accuse Thomist theology of Jansenism, in the same decree that it forbad accusations of Molinist theology (which rejects physical pre-motion) of being Pelagian. Yet it is a logical conclusion of what the Thomists are claiming; in other words, it is inconsistent to believe in physical pre-motion and human freedom at the same time. I say “Thomists” because my understanding is that this doctrine originates more with John of St. Thomas than with Aquinas himself, though I may be mistaken on this matter.

On what grounds? Please explain, don’t simply make unfounded assertions. You have made enough of them here to last us a very long time.

I tried to clarify that above.

What do you mean by this statement?

ditto.

Can you re-state this a bit more clearly? In its current form, it is the mother of all confusion.

If He predestines us to Heaven against our will, then we cannot freely choose Heaven. (Otherwise human freedom is not in fact an answer to the question “Why does God let some people go to Hell?”) If He predestines us to Heaven, but not against our will, then this predestination is not infallibly efficacious.

Please explain.

**Look at the next post because I am over the character limit. **
 
Please explain, if you don’t mind, how one keeps faith with the Catholic Church when none of your hypotheses are Catholic in any sense. Otherwise, please describe how the world works and how it came into being - in time.

jd
What is there to explain? Open a physics textbook and you will find no mention of God, and any mention of God will be frankly irrelevant. Physics doesn’t need resource to God to explain either mechanics, or the evolution (I did not say creation) of the universe. (The creation of the universe and a brief period of time afterwards cannot be described by the current physical theory, although there are many hypotheses which have been formulated to try to push back the veil.) Nor do we need God to explain the nature of matter - the natures of forces and particles, or the natures of chemical substances.

Please explain, if you don’t mind, how one keeps faith with the Catholic Church when none of your hypotheses are Catholic in any sense. Otherwise, please describe how the world works and how it came into being - in time.

**Are you seriously claiming that one cannot be a good Catholic and study science (with a scientific mindset)? As counterexamples, I offer the Pontifical Academy of the Sciences and the Vatican Observatory, Father Nicholaus Copernicus, Monsignor Georges Lemaitre (who first formulated the Big Bang theory), Abbe Henri Breuil (to whom we shall be forever indebted for his contributions to our knowledge of human evolution), Abbot Gregor Mendel (father of genetics), Roger Bacon (a Franciscan, I think?), Robert Grosseteste (also a Franciscan? His optical work is still mentioned in college textbooks), Father Athanasius Kircher, the over fifty Jesuit astronomers who have craters on the Moon named after them, Father Julius Nieuwland, Teilhard de Chardin (who did some serious scientific work before he ruined both his orthodoxy and his scientific credibility with his non-scientific, pseudo-mystical attitude), and dozens of others. There are a small number of non-Catholic priests, of the Mariavite and Russian Orthodox sects, who have also been scientists (the Mariavite priest was working at the Vatican Observatory, and Fr. Georges Florensky worked as an engineer for the Soviets before Stalin sent him to the gulag and had him shot because he showed up to work every day in his priest’s cassock; some of his mathematics is also tainted by pseudo-mysticism, however). Science is one of the many jewels which the Catholic Church has bestowed upon the world.

As for how the world came into being, are you asking me to give you a history of the universe from the Big Bang onwards? There are plenty of books and popular articles which can give you that. Here is a brief summary, if you really need one.

13.7 billion years ago - the universe is a singularity.
0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds later, we can begin to describe what it looked like. All the forces were unified at that temperature, and interaction with the Higgs field had not yet caused the phenomenon of “mass” to come into being.

Coupling constant for the gravitational interaction separates at about 10^-35 seconds (that’s the closest I can do to scientific notation on this forum; I’ll spare you writing it all out again.😉 )

Color force is differentiated by 10^-13 seconds. Universe is now a quark-electron soup about ten centimeters in diameter.

Electromagnetic force is finally distinct by 0.001 seconds after the Big Bang; the universe is cool enough for nucleosynthesis to begin.

2-400,000 years later stellar evolution begins as gas clouds start to condense into galaxies. The sun formed 4.6 billion years ago, and the earth about six million years later. At least 3.7 billion years ago life was first formed (we don’t really know how), and evolved (again, we don’t really know how) to form the splendid diversity of life as we see it today. Man is descended from a single pair of first parents, as we know from genetic evidence (confirming Catholic teaching). When the first truly human - instead of humanoid - pair of first parents lived I don’t know. Civilization is about 10,000 years old; Homo Sapiens is at probably at least 150,000 years old (possibly longer; I’m no more of an expert on paleontology than anyone else is; you can look this up for yourself) with similar species even older.**
 
The philosophy of Thomas Aquinas is not dogma per se, however it does explain our dogma. As long as the philosophy you adopt does not lead you to reject a dogma of Holy Mother Church it is permissible.

You said you turn to modern science for your authority on philosophy. That is like me saying I turn to cooking to gain knowledge about creative writing. Modern science is a completely different category of knowledge. Furthermore it operates on methodological naturalism.

Remember people like Dr. William Lane Craig, are very good Christian philosophers, even though they are not Thomists. Dr. Craig is an analytic philosopher. Mother Church does not have an official philosophical school. Right now most Catholics are Thomists – at one time we were all neo-Platonists. Seminarians are taught Thomism.
 
Two points:
  1. On occasion science and philosophy happen to tread on the same ground - namely, the nature of matter. Science is the study of matter and its properties (this is not a completely rigorous definition, but it’s usually true), so we turn to science in order to explain how matter works, instead of rejecting science in favor of Aristotelian or transcendental idealist descriptions of how nature works. The two disciplines are not entirely separate, especially when philosophy claims to be the study of everything.
  2. Regarding philosophy of science, which I forgot to respond to earlier: The subject-matter of philosophy of science is science, so if you want to learn “philosophy of science”, science is what you should study. “Philosophy of science” comes with the study of science, not with the study of philosophy per se. To study the works of philosophers and remain ignorant of modern science, and then claim to write on “philosophy of science” is about as presumptuous as to write a geography of a land you have never been to and which you know only fragments of hearsay about. And then to deny that certain realms are in the province of science is like denying that certain towns or villages in this far-off country exist, on the grounds that it does not seem fitting, to you who have never even been there, that these villages should be there. And those of use who live in the villages (i.e., who study those realms of science such as the vacuum which is outside your definition of the realm of science) can only shake our heads in disbelief.
I hope my analogy was clear enough.
 
Two points:
so we turn to science in order to explain how matter works, instead of rejecting science in favor of Aristotelian or transcendental idealist descriptions of how nature works. The two disciplines are not entirely separate, especially when philosophy claims to be the study of everything…
…nothing Thomas Aquinas has said contradicts any established scientific truth. Also Aquinas and Aristotle were realists.

From a Thomistic point of view, modern science is just exploring the thoughts in the mind of God. It is true that one school of philosophy cannot describe all of objective reality – this as Pope John Paul said in Fides et ratio, would be philosophical pride – however this does not mean that anything Thomas Aquinas has said is incorrect. On the contrary most philosophers in the Church see Aquinas as correct on everything save for his social doctrine. The Thomistic school is considered by Holy Church the most perfect our of any school, which is why we teach it in our seminaries.

There are things Thomas has not addressed, because he was more concerned with God then the natural world.
 
…nothing Thomas Aquinas has said contradicts any established scientific truth. Also Aquinas and Aristotle were realists.

From a Thomistic point of view, modern science is just exploring the thoughts in the mind of God. It is true that one school of philosophy cannot describe all of objective reality – this as Pope John Paul said in Fides et ratio, would be philosophical pride – however this does not mean that anything Thomas Aquinas has said is incorrect. On the contrary most philosophers in the Church see Aquinas as correct on everything save for his social doctrine. The Thomistic school is considered by Holy Church the most perfect our of any school, which is why we teach it in our seminaries.

There are things Thomas has not addressed, because he was more concerned with God then the natural world.
The actuality of matter is contrary to Aristotelian “physics”. The fact that numbers are independent logical entities - and include negative numbers, irrational numbers, complex numbers, and the numbers 0 and 1 - contradicts Aquinas’ view. The fact that motion is not simultaneous over space (there is no “spooky action at a distance”, Wade-Bell experiment aside) is likewise contrary to Aquinas’ view. Aristotle’s teleological physics was also false. The idea of an absolute state of “rest” towards which objects in motion are only in potency is also false, since absolute zero is impossible to obtain, and all objects are in motion relative to each other. (This is Galilean relativity, by the way, not special relativity.) As far as I know the only thing that was corrected in Aristotle’s physics was John Philoponus’ realization that an object continues in motion because of something inherent in itself and not because the air is pushing it forward; I do not know if Aquinas accepted this or not.

Modern science is not “realist” in the philosophical sense; matter is what we study, and matter therefore cannot be either purely potential or unknowable, as it was for Aquinas. We generalize the behavior of matter in mathematical terms, but “form” as such is unknown to us. Nor do we study “thoughts in the mind of God”; while the laws of physics may be such (and are such, in fact), what we study is the world itself, the actual world that God has created.

(I hold the very un-Thomistic view that God’s knowledge of the world is the world itself, without being mediated through any universal forms; so the statement that we “study thoughts in the mind of God” happens to be true. But what we set out to study is the real world regardless of whether it is a divine idea or not.)
 
I do have problems with this “explanation”, however, because it doesn’t really explain anything. God is free - how does that tell us what it means to be free, and whether (or in what sense) our choices are caused or not?
It tells us that free will is a form of creativity which transcends the physical world and that our choices have no cause other than ourselves. That is why we are uniquely and utterly responsible for our decisions. We are prime movers capable of self-determination, a fact recognized in every court of law throughout the world. What other explanation of free will is there?
It isn’t “Ultimate Reality” - an awfully vague term - that I’m interested in; I want to know how I (the limited, individual “me”) goes about choosing something freely.
On the contrary “Ultimate Reality” is extremely precise. It specifies the last (or first, depending on your point of view) term in a series of entities. The only alternative is an infinite regress of entities - which is generally accepted as an intelligible and unsatisfactory explanation.

The atheist’s series: ?>atomic particles>living organisms>brain>mind>free will.
(The Ultimate Reality is either a void or physical energy.)

The theist’s series: God>atomic particles>living organisms>brain>mind>free will.
(The Ultimate Reality is God, i.e. a creative, rational, conscious, purposeful and free personal Being.)

There is no evidence that atomic particles are creative, rational, conscious, purposeful or free. There is no evidence that these attributes have emerged from atomic particles which lack these attributes.There is evidence that only persons have these attributes. It follows that a Personal Being is the most adequate and intelligible explanation.

Obviously we cannot fully understand the nature of this Being. Nor can we fully understand the nature of creativity, rationality, consciousness or free will but we do have direct knowledge and experience of these powers in our own activity. We know that our power of choice and our power of reason are interdependent. The truth makes us free but we have to be free to arrive at the truth! More than that we cannot expect to know because we are confronted with the mystery of Ultimate Reality within ourselves… That is why as Christians we believe we are made in the image and likeness of the Creator. Even on earth we are godlike in our insight into reality, creativity and capacity for love…
 
I am surprised:
“In the thought and writings of St. Thomas Aquinas, metaphysics holds an honored place among the speculative rational sciences and philosophical disciplines. It is the queen of rational disciplines and receives the name of wisdom…”
www.aquinasonline.com/Topics/metaphys.html
I seem to be pursuing a dead end looking for a quote from the Commentary on the De Trinitate supporting the claim that Aquinas thought that metaphysics is less certain than physics. Here is from the Summa Theologica, Prima Pars, Q. 1 art. 5 ad 1:

“It may well happen that what is in itself the more certain may seem to us the less certain on account of the weakness of our intelligence, “which is dazzled by the clearest objects of nature; as the owl is dazzled by the light of the sun” (Metaph. ii, lect. i). Hence the fact that some happen to doubt about articles of faith is not due to the uncertain nature of the truths, but to the weakness of human intelligence; yet the slenderest knowledge that may be obtained of the highest things is more desirable than the most certain knowledge obtained of lesser things, as is said in de Animalibus xi.”

newadvent.org/summa/1001.htm#article5
 
The atheist’s series: ?>atomic particles>living organisms>brain>mind>free will.
(The Ultimate Reality is either a void or physical energy.)

The theist’s series: God>atomic particles>living organisms>brain>mind>free will.
(The Ultimate Reality is God, i.e. a creative, rational, conscious, purposeful and free personal Being.)

There is no evidence that atomic particles are creative, rational, conscious, purposeful or free. There is no evidence that these attributes have emerged from atomic particles which lack these attributes.There is evidence that only persons have these attributes. It follows that a Personal Being is the most adequate and intelligible explanation.
The problem I have with this is that the chain of explanations in this series is reductionistic (explaining big things in terms of their parts) - until we get to God. God isn’t a reductionistic explanation for why atomic phenomena occur; though we know that they occur because He made them that why. Saying that “He made them that way” is not an explanation, however.
 
The problem I have with this is that the chain of explanations in this series is reductionistic (explaining big things in terms of their parts) - until we get to God. God isn’t a reductionistic explanation for why atomic phenomena occur; though we know that they occur because He made them that why. Saying that “He made them that way” is not an explanation, however.
It is an explanation if we give a reason why He made them that way. It goes to show that reductionistic explanation is not the most important form of explanation.

“Why did God create us?”
“To love one another”.
“Why did He create us to love one another?”
“Because by loving one another we become fulfilled, creative, happy and live in harmony?”
“Why did He create us to be fulfilled, creative, happy and live in harmony?”
“There is no need to answer that question!”
“Why not?”
“Because that is the ultimate purpose of existence.”

We have penetrated to the heart of reality. Just as there cannot be an infinite regress of causes …<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< so there cannot be an infinite regress of purposes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>…
 
It is an explanation if we give a reason why He made them that way. It goes to show that reductionistic explanation is not the most important form of explanation.

“Why did God create us?”
“To love one another”.
“Why did He create us to love one another?”
“Because by loving one another we become fulfilled, creative, happy and live in harmony?”
“Why did He create us to be fulfilled, creative, happy and live in harmony?”
“There is no need to answer that question!”
“Why not?”
“Because that is the ultimate purpose of existence.”

We have penetrated to the heart of reality. Just as there cannot be an infinite regress of causes …<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< so there cannot be an infinite regress of purposes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>…
Okay. But that’s a very different kind of explanation than the kind science gives; it’s a very different kind of question than the kind science gives; it has a very different purpose than science. I’m not sure that this kind of explanation is “more important” than scientific explanation; scientific explanation is what has yielded us incredibly insight into the nature of reality; scientific explanation is what has put men on the moon and given us computers, and scientific explanation is the same sort of explanation as the Unmoved Mover argument tries to give (they both involve efficient causes, not final ones).

And I really wouldn’t say that we’ve “penetrated into the heart of reality” by the argument above. We still know nothing (from that argument) as to what we are or how we work or even why we are the way we are (since creation does not magically conform to God’s designs; there is always a physical reason why the end God instituted ends up being fulfilled).
 
Okay. But that’s a very different kind of explanation than the kind science gives; it’s a very different kind of question than the kind science gives; it has a very different purpose than science.
I agree. It cannot even explain the purpose of science!
I’m not sure that this kind of explanation is “more important” than scientific explanation; scientific explanation is what has yielded us incredible insight into the nature of reality; scientific explanation is what has put men on the moon and given us computers, and scientific explanation is the same sort of explanation as the Unmoved Mover argument tries to give (they both involve efficient causes, not final ones).
Scientific explanation is what has yielded us incredible insight into the nature of **physical **reality. It gives us no information whatsoever about **why **we or anything else exists. It dispenses with teleology and purpose altogether. It is restricted to mechanistic, atomistic, reductive explanation whereas theism gives us a comprehensive synthesis which applies directly to our lives and is verified in our own personal experience. Valuable though science is, it tells us nothing about the nature of truth, goodness, freedom , beauty or love - which are more important than every scientific discovery and invention ever been made. If we have no genuine reason for living everything becomes worthless, futile and pointless.
And I really wouldn’t say that we’ve “penetrated into the heart of reality” by the argument above.
If the Ultimate Cause, i.e. the Creator, is not the heart of reality what is? An infinite regress of causes? Atomic particles?
We still know nothing (from that argument) as to what we are or how we work or even why we are the way we are (since creation does not magically conform to God’s designs; there is always a physical reason why the end God instituted ends up being fulfilled).
We know (from that argument) that we are persons, embodied spiritual beings who share in God’s power, consciousness and glory. We know we have supernatural power which enables us to be aware of, understand and control ourselves and our environment. We know we are created for specific purposes and are more than strange freaks of nature which exist for no reason. We know why we should love others and regard all human beings as equal with a right to life, freedom and happiness. Rights, freedom and happiness do not even exist as far as science is concerned. There is no physical explanation of how we make the choices and decisions we make nor why they are fulfilled nor how or why we determine our ultimate destiny beyond the grave. The horizons of science are restricted to this life, this world and to external reality. It cannot take into account, still less explain, the spiritual aspect of our existence because that is entirely beyond its scope. The fact that spiritual reality existed before physical reality and outlasts physical reality demonstrates the impotence of science when it is confronted by the question of our development as persons with a capacity for love and moral perfection.
 
Cecilianus:

I would love to have responded to your previous post, but, by not using Quote surrounds, in your reply to me, that is simply much work is way out of the question. I just don’t feel like working that hard.
What is there to explain? Open a physics textbook and you will find no mention of God, and any mention of God will be frankly irrelevant. Physics doesn’t need resource to God to explain either mechanics, or the evolution (I did not say creation) of the universe.
That is without question. Why would it? Physicists already know how the universe came about and why. Why should God be needed?
(The creation of the universe and a brief period of time afterwards cannot be described by the current physical theory, although there are many hypotheses which have been formulated to try to push back the veil.)
Well, I’m happy for that.
Nor do we need God to explain the nature of matter
The “nature” of matter. . . Hmmm. What is the “nature” of matter? And, on a related subject, what is the nature of “motion”?
  • the natures of forces and particles, or the natures of chemical substances.
I’d truly love to know the “natures” of these items, too.
Quote from jd:
Please explain, if you don’t mind, how one keeps faith with the Catholic Church when none of your hypotheses are Catholic in any sense. Otherwise, please describe how the world works and how it came into being - in time.
Are you seriously claiming that one cannot be a good Catholic and study science (with a scientific mindset)?
Not at all. Are you putting words in my mouth?
Science is one of the many jewels which the Catholic Church has bestowed upon the world.
I agree .
As for how the world came into being, are you asking me to give you a history of the universe from the Big Bang onwards?
No. I asked the question pretty precisely, as I recall. However, since it is cut from the reply I guess you’ll have to go back and re-read it.
There are plenty of books and popular articles which can give you that. Here is a brief summary, if you really need one.
As my daughter likes to say, “No thanks; I’m good!”

[CUT - as it was not asked for and not needed.]

Unfortunately, that’s all the harder I’m willing to work. I don’t mind working on answering, but, re-creating the program is not what I’m all about. Sorry.

jd
 
@JDaniel:
Please explain, if you don’t mind, how one keeps faith with the Catholic Church when none of your hypotheses are Catholic in any sense. Otherwise, please describe how the world works and how it came into being - in time.
The answer is the Big Bang model. What else are you looking for?
 
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