"Open to Life" and "Intent" - NFP vs ABC

[vluvski]

svoboda:

But if birth control is “gravely evil” then why don’t good people see it? I know good people, very kind, caring, family-oriented, and they use artificial birth control.

I’ve told both my parents the Catholic “open to life/complete gift of self” argument and it made little sense to them.

Everyone agrees that murder, rape, lying, stealing, cheating, abuse, and other clearly sinful things are evil.

But not so with birth control, even most Catholics use it.

To me this is evidence that the Church’s teachings are out of date.

Human sacrifice and cannibalism did/do not seem gravely evil to some cultures. Hitler and his henchmen apparently did not think genocide was wrong. Absolute truth, not the conscience of society, dictate right from wrong.

If the church is supposed to base it’s teachings on the moral compass of contemporary society, perhaps it should also change its teachings on fornication, masturbation, extramarital affairs, divorce, homosexuality…

The fact is that society should conform itself to the truth, because truth will never, can never conform itself to the lies we trick ourselves into believing.

 

[fix]

svoboda:

But if birth control is “gravely evil” then why don’t good people see it? I know good people, very kind, caring, family-oriented, and they use artificial birth control.

I’ve told both my parents the Catholic “open to life/complete gift of self” argument and it made little sense to them.

Everyone agrees that murder, rape, lying, stealing, cheating, abuse, and other clearly sinful things are evil.

But not so with birth control, even most Catholics use it.

To me this is evidence that the Church’s teachings are out of date.

Birth control is not evil, contraception is evil. Understanding that difference is the key.

 

[setter]

svoboda:

But if birth control is “gravely evil” then why don’t good people see it? I know good people, very kind, caring, family-oriented, and they use artificial birth control.

I’ve told both my parents the Catholic “open to life/complete gift of self” argument and it made little sense to them.

Everyone agrees that murder, rape, lying, stealing, cheating, abuse, and other clearly sinful things are evil.

But not so with birth control, even most Catholics use it.

To me this is evidence that the Church’s teachings are out of date.

The Church has consistently declared that is is a mortal sin for Catholics to knowingly, consiously and willfully use ABC. “Mortal” sin means that unless confessed and repented of, one who dies in the state of mortal sin has cut themselves off from the sactifying grace needed to enter into heaven. A sobering reality that unfortunately is not being disseminated regularly from the pulpit.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God. (CCC)

The same words that Jesus spoke to the would be disciples of his day are spoken to the would be followers of Jesus today. Being “good people, very kind, caring, family-oriented” church going Catholics is not enough in and of itself to make it to heaven, but only the person who “does the will” of God will enter heaven:

"Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” Matt: 7:21

The doctrine of the Cross is never out of date. Jesus dismissed the idea of morality by consensus. These are the words of Jesus spoken to the “many” who would wantonly choose and rationalize their sin choices on the “wide” and “easy” way that leads to destruction:

"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” Matt: 7:13-14

“Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life? For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done”. Matt. 16: 24-27

You might do your loved one’s (and yourself) a favor and reconsider what it means to be Catholic; research the theological and moral rationale behind the Church’s teaching in matters of faith and morals; ponder the event of when you stand before the Lord upon your check out from this temporary life to see what eternal life you have chosen and who will He say has the final say on matters of faith and morality (the Church magisterium or others).

 

[Halo]

None so blind as those who will not see

 

[LittleDeb]

svoboda:

But if birth control is “gravely evil” then why don’t good people see it? I know good people, very kind, caring, family-oriented, and they use artificial birth control.

I’ve told both my parents the Catholic “open to life/complete gift of self” argument and it made little sense to them.

Everyone agrees that murder, rape, lying, stealing, cheating, abuse, and other clearly sinful things are evil.

But not so with birth control, even most Catholics use it.

To me this is evidence that the Church’s teachings are out of date.

This is such a good question! I believe your answer might be in your explanation and the topic of the thread.

The very valid example you give here is the exact reason for the concern about arguing intent. Many people have very valid reasons to space or prevent conception. The question is that it is specifically contraception that is evil not necessarily the intent.

Let’s look at it logically. As humans the same rules apply to all of us. The Big Ten have no exclusions. No one is allowed to take the Lord’s name in vain, dishonor their parents, covet their neighbor’s goods, etc…

So if the same rules apply to everyone for everything else in life then then they also apply to the marriage act. Only those married are allowed to participate in the marriage act. There is also only ONE way to space or prevent conception. That ONE way is abstinence. This applies to unmarried teens, singles seeking marriage, those called to the religious celibate life, and of course to married people.

Intent is about the question of “should we prevent conception?” In the case of the unmarried the answer is always “YES!” The means? Abstinence. In married couples the question of, “Should we space, delay or prevent conception?” The answer should only be “yes” for serious reason since marriage is primarily for the procreation and education of children. The means? Abstinence! But since marriage is also for the unity of the spouses this abstinence should be periodic not total abstinence. (NFP)

 

[kamz]

Lorarose:

Exactly.
I’d like to hear from the op after the wedding, and after - oh say…about 6-8 pregnancies.
I wonder if the opinion will change when she goes years without sleep- cannot give quality to time to each child, cannot afford to continue to have more children, and finds herself in a constant state of crankiness and agitation because of all the noise and chaos.

Not everyone can properly handle large amounts of children. We all have our limits.

Amen, its easy to toot your horn when you are not even married yet…but try having kids and try having your doctor tell you you’ll die if you get pregnant ever again…try having a husband or wife work so hard you never see them and still you barely put food on the table and clothes on the kids but you do it without welfare, you just make it and you are so thankful for NFP because you have SERIOUS reason to avoid a pregnancy and then someone comes along and says that your serious reasons are just not good enough…or better yet, your not truely trusting in God when you use NFP, something the Catholic church gives us…so now, am I going to listen to the church or some “people who are Catholic who have theri own personal opinion?” um, I think I will listen to the church… NFP is given to us for a reason, anything can be abused and people will always be that way but just as many people won’t be that way, they will use NFP the way the church and God intended for it…so start saying…I personally choose to not even use NFP even though the church totally permits NFP, its my PERSONAL choice to not even use NFP but for anyone who wants to use NFP the way the church teaches us to use it, that is totally fine too, it comes down to what is right for each individual person…such as, I will only send my children to Catholic school, that is my opinion that this is the very best thing for my children but it is my opinion and if you choose to homeschool or use public school that is just fine too.
We need to work much, much more on ourselves and our walk with Jesus and setting a good example for those around us by walking a good walk with Jesus…less time needs to be spent preaching from the pulpit about “my way is right and yours is wrong” but that of course is just my humble opinion

 

[Halo]

 

[svoboda]

vluvski:

Human sacrifice and cannibalism did/do not seem gravely evil to some cultures. Hitler and his henchmen apparently did not think genocide was wrong. Absolute truth, not the conscience of society, dictate right from wrong.

If the church is supposed to base it’s teachings on the moral compass of contemporary society, perhaps it should also change its teachings on fornication, masturbation, extramarital affairs, divorce, homosexuality…

The fact is that society should conform itself to the truth, because truth will never, can never conform itself to the lies we trick ourselves into believing.

But Hitler was disturbed/evil, the birth-control users I mentioned are some of the kindest and moral people I have ever met.

If Catholic morality derives from natural law, and if our moral conscience comes from God (which I believe), then good people who are trying live moral lives should agree on basic moral principles.

And they do, they all agree that lying, cheating, stealing, rape, murder, torture, abuse and the like are wrong. They think that helping others and charity are good.

But they don’t agree about birth control!

 

[svoboda]

fix:

Birth control is not evil, contraception is evil. Understanding that difference is the key.

I agree that contraception that causes abortions is evil, but I don’t see anything wrong with barrier methods.

Snce all agree that it’s not evil to limit the size of one’s family, what does it matter if it’s done by meticulous measurement of NFP or the more convenient use of a condom/spermicide?

The agrument that there has to be a “complete gift of self”, fertility included, doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Everybody recognizes that people can’t just keep having babies, and that the gift of fertility is not always good. Why not withold it when the time isn’t right for another baby? NFP is just a more time consuming way of withholding it.

The idea that sex must always be open to life also doesn’t make sense, because obviously NFP users go to great lengths to avoid any possibility of being open to life.

 

[setter]

I agree that contraception that causes abortions is evil, but I don’t see anything wrong with barrier methods.

Snce all agree that it’s not evil to limit the size of one’s family, what does it matter if it’s done by meticulous measurement of NFP or the more convenient use of a condom/spermicide?

Convenience is not a criteria for the merits of morality.

The agrument that there has to be a “complete gift of self”, fertility included, doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Everybody recognizes that people can’t just keep having babies, and that the gift of fertility is not always good.

Fertility (and rightful “gift of fertility” in marriage) is always an intrinsic good (as in always a good in and of itself).

Why not withold it when the time isn’t right for another baby? NFP is just a more time consuming way of withholding it.

NFP is more a matter of “holding” than “withholding” fertility as is the case with ABC.

The idea that sex must always be open to life also doesn’t make sense, because obviously NFP users go to great lengths to avoid any possibility of being open to life.

NFP presents no physical barriers to being open to life.

 

[vluvski]

svoboda:

But Hitler was disturbed/evil, the birth-control users I mentioned are some of the kindest and moral people I have ever met.

If Catholic morality derives from natural law, and if our moral conscience comes from God (which I believe), then good people who are trying live moral lives should agree on basic moral principles.

And they do, they all agree that lying, cheating, stealing, rape, murder, torture, abuse and the like are wrong. They think that helping others and charity are good.

But they don’t agree about birth control!

Moral conscience DOES come from God, but as individuals and as a society, free will gives us the opportunity to form our consciences in a way that is not pleasing to God. Here’s a better example than Hitler, etc…

I know some women, some of whom I consider friends, who are the nicest, most compassionate, most caring people, yet they believe abortion is a moral non-issue. They aren’t bad people, yet they have been so misled by lies and feel-good slogans that their perception of moral reality is outright disturbed. On the other end of the spectrum, there are very zealous protestants and non-Christians who would have us believe that alcohol is the beverage of Satan, that anyone who eats meat is going to Hell, or that dancing is utterly forbidden.

Think of your conscience as a magnetic compass of sorts. With no interference, its direction will be true. Sometimes temporary interference will cause it to read improperly for a short period of time until the interference is removed. Other times, a serious interference will actually deform the magnets in such a way that they permanently read improperly.

Admitting a problem and submitting to church teachings out of sullen obedience would be like taking note that your compass is 27.5 degrees off and probably being really frustrated that you have to think about the calculation ever time you use the compass.

To truly conform yourself to God’s Will however, you must hold out your compass in good faith that He will eventually heal you and correct this problem for you.

 

[LittleDeb]

svoboda:

The agrument that there has to be a “complete gift of self”, fertility included, doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Everybody recognizes that people can’t just keep having babies, and that the gift of fertility is not always good. Why not withold it when the time isn’t right for another baby? NFP is just a more time consuming way of withholding it.

A lot of people don’t understand “complete gift of self.” I didn’t used to understand it either. I started with the idea that sex was a “right of the couple” and that it didn’t matter what was involved in each act. I had the same idea that “everybody recognizes that people can’t just keep having babies…etc…” I don’t believe any of that anymore.

The question I would ask you: Is your starting point on the issue of barriers vs. NFP misguided? Mine was. I didn’t know what a “complete gift of self” was until my husband showed me. He didn’t know what it was until I showed him. This is exactly the point of this thread. Intent. Those who misunderstand NFP do so because they mistake intent for means. That makes for difficult communication.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The idea that sex must always be open to life also doesn’t make sense, because obviously NFP users go to great lengths to avoid any possibility of being open to life

It is contraception users who go to great lengths to avoid the possiblity of being open to life. (Buying condoms, withholding the act of sex to apply it, separating immediatly after to remove it.) That is great lengths. NFP users do nothing to avoid the possibility of being open to life. Literally. Each act must be open to life. Again, this is a misunderstanding of NFP based on confusion of intent.

 

[svoboda]

vluvski:

Moral conscience DOES come from God, but as individuals and as a society, free will gives us the opportunity to form our consciences in a way that is not pleasing to God. Here’s a better example than Hitler, etc…

I know some women, some of whom I consider friends, who are the nicest, most compassionate, most caring people, yet they believe abortion is a moral non-issue. They aren’t bad people, yet they have been so misled by lies and feel-good slogans that their perception of moral reality is outright disturbed. On the other end of the spectrum, there are very zealous protestants and non-Christians who would have us believe that alcohol is the beverage of Satan, that anyone who eats meat is going to Hell, or that dancing is utterly forbidden.

I know good people who see nothing wrong with abortion, but I think it is more a case of misinformation than a corrupted conscience.

When I was young I myself couldn’t understand why people opposed abortion, because it seemed to me that clearly the “clump of cells” without a brain, organs, or anything else could not be human. I didn’t see the big deal over removing a “clump of cells” that didn’t think, feel, or know it existed.

People who don’t believe in the soul don’t necessarily have a reason to conclude that the unborn (especially at early stages) are human, because for those people being human might be tied with being self aware, with thinking and feeling, with knowing you exist.
And since none of these things are possible without a brain, they might reasonably conclude that there’s nothing wrong with abortion.

But those same people are pretty adamant that murder is a grave evil! And I bet if they believed the unborn were human, they would condemn abortion.

Think of your conscience as a magnetic compass of sorts. With no interference, its direction will be true. Sometimes temporary interference will cause it to read improperly for a short period of time until the interference is removed. Other times, a serious interference will actually deform the magnets in such a way that they permanently read improperly.

Admitting a problem and submitting to church teachings out of sullen obedience would be like taking note that your compass is 27.5 degrees off and probably being really frustrated that you have to think about the calculation ever time you use the compass.

To truly conform yourself to God’s Will however, you must hold out your compass in good faith that He will eventually heal you and correct this problem for you.

But why can’t the Church’s moral compass be affected by culture? There was a time when the Church supported the Inquisition. There was a time when the Church thought it was good to censor books. There was a time when the Church didn’t condemn slavery.

I have seen quotes by popes pretty much saying that non-Catholics are going straight to hell.

The Church has been wrong before, why can’t it be wrong now? Even most Catholics are not submitting to the teaching on birth control.

 

[svoboda]

LittleDeb:

It is contraception users who go to great lengths to avoid the possiblity of being open to life. (Buying condoms, withholding the act of sex to apply it, separating immediatly after to remove it.) That is great lengths. NFP users do nothing to avoid the possibility of being open to life. Literally. Each act must be open to life. Again, this is a misunderstanding of NFP based on confusion of intent.

To me it seems that condoms and spermicide is a very effortless way to prevent pregnancy. To prevent pregnancy with NFP one has to take very careful measurements every single day.

To me the idea that NFP is open to life is a contradiction, the whole point of all the measurements is to find out when it’s not possible to get pregnant and have sex only on those days! How is that open to life? The purpose of NFP is to have sex without becoming pregnant!

 

[LittleDeb]

svoboda:

To me it seems that condoms and spermicide is a very effortless way to prevent pregnancy. To prevent pregnancy with NFP one has to take very careful measurements every single day.

To me the idea that NFP is open to life is a contradiction, the whole point of all the measurements is to find out when it’s not possible to get pregnant and have sex only on those days! How is that open to life? The purpose of NFP is to have sex without becoming pregnant!

As I said, this is confusing intent with means. Condoms etc. might seem effortless. What they are is thoughtless meaning without thought. The intent in using a contraceptive device is to prevent conception from occurring within the act of sex. To use NFP is to prevent conception by not engaging in the act of sex. Any teen who practices abstinence is “not open to life” by your current misunderstanding.

The purpose of NFP is not “to have sex without becoming pregnant.” That is the purpose of contraception. If you would like to understand the purpose of NFP I would be happy to share it. I am currently abstaining during fertile phases with deep sadness. How am I not open to life? I want more children ASAP. However that is not God’s will for me right now.

I appreciate your confusion because I used to feel very much the same way. The gift of NFP has helped me come to fully embrace all the teachings of The Church. She is right about this one just as She is right about the rest.

 

[vluvski]

svoboda:

I know good people who see nothing wrong with abortion, but I think it is more a case of misinformation than a corrupted conscience.

I would hesitate to call it a “corrupted” conscience for just that reason. If I used that word, I apologize, because it implied some kind of villianous alliance that I think only rarely exists. A malformed conscience is functionally equivalent to a misinformed conscience.

svoboda:

When I was young I myself couldn’t understand why people opposed abortion…

When I was very young (before I knew what sex was or that it even existed), I wondered the same thing because I saw the inadvertently pregnant couple as a victim of circumstance… until I discovered that pregnancy doesn’t happen by accident.
As we grow and mature in our understanding of marriage and sexuality, the laws the church sets for us begin to make more sense. Sometimes our surroundings essentially stunt this growth with an influx of secular culture. Continue seeking the truth, and it will not stay hidden from you.

svoboda:

But why can’t the Church’s moral compass be affected by culture? There was a time when the Church supported the Inquisition. There was a time when the Church thought it was good to censor books. There was a time when the Church didn’t condemn slavery.

I have seen quotes by popes pretty much saying that non-Catholics are going straight to hell.

The Church has been wrong before, why can’t it be wrong now? Even most Catholics are not submitting to the teaching on birth control.

Individuals in the church, sometimes very prominent ones like popes, are just as susceptible to maligned morals as the rest of society. It is highly unfortunate that certain elements of Catholic history have tainted her reputation, but these sad and disappointing elements of our Catholic past were never doctinal teachings.

If we cannot trust God to keep His word that he will guide his church, where can we turn?

 

[svoboda]

vluvski:

I would hesitate to call it a “corrupted” conscience for just that reason. If I used that word, I apologize, because it implied some kind of villianous alliance that I think only rarely exists. A malformed conscience is functionally equivalent to a misinformed conscience.

I would not use this language. A malformed (or corrupted) conscience means that a person believes an evil act is okay. For example someone who believes rape is okay has a malformed conscience

I think most people who believe abortion is okay do this not because they know what it is and still think it’s okay, but because they honestly don’t think the unborn are human. If on the other hand they thought the unborn were human and still believed abortion is okay, then we’d have a problem.

This is not a matter of a malformed conscience but of a difference in scientific/philosophical understanding. Catholics believe that people have a soul at conception. Some people don’t believe this, or don’t believe in the soul at all. In that case, the newly fertilized embryo is just a cell, not a being.

If I’m not mistaken in the past even the Church thought abortion was not murder before the quickening.

Individuals in the church, sometimes very prominent ones like popes, are just as susceptible to maligned morals as the rest of society. It is highly unfortunate that certain elements of Catholic history have tainted her reputation, but these sad and disappointing elements of our Catholic past were never doctinal teachings.

If we cannot trust God to keep His word that he will guide his church, where can we turn?

But the Church’s teaching on birth control really is the result of a few letters by a few popes. The author of Humanae Vitae being the main person. If I’m not mistaken a vatican II comission recommended that the teaching on birth control be changed!

Just as a few popes said heretics could not be saved, a few popes said birth control is not okay. Most catholics, including some priests, disagree!

 

[svoboda]

LittleDeb:

As I said, this is confusing intent with means. Condoms etc. might seem effortless. What they are is thoughtless meaning without thought. The intent in using a contraceptive device is to prevent conception from occurring within the act of sex. To use NFP is to prevent conception by not engaging in the act of sex. Any teen who practices abstinence is “not open to life” by your current misunderstanding.

The purpose of NFP is not “to have sex without becoming pregnant.” That is the purpose of contraception. If you would like to understand the purpose of NFP I would be happy to share it. I am currently abstaining during fertile phases with deep sadness. How am I not open to life? I want more children ASAP. However that is not God’s will for me right now.

I appreciate your confusion because I used to feel very much the same way. The gift of NFP has helped me come to fully embrace all the teachings of The Church. She is right about this one just as She is right about the rest.

But of course the purpose of NFP is to have sex without becoming pregnant! Otherwise a couple who could not handle another child, or didn’t want another child for one reason or another could simply abstain from sex until they decided to have another child.

But as it stands couples enjoy sex and want to continue enjoying sex even when the time for children isn’t right. So in using NFP they carefully measure the woman’s fertility signs to find out when they can enjoy sex without risking pregnancy.

If not sex without the risk of pregnancy, then what is the aim of NFP?

 

[LittleDeb]

svoboda:

If not sex without the risk of pregnancy, then what is the aim of NFP?

I would like to answer your question, but I don’t know that the answer I would give fits your concept of NFP. We begin at very different points so my answer will probably not satisfy.

That you use the word “risk” in the context of “pregnancy” shows that we are coming from different points of intent. This was the OP’s original point. Intent confuses the issue with many people. The means of NFP is separate than the intent in using it. When you ask the aim of NFP do you mean what is the means of NFP or what is the intent of faithful (to the Truth) users of NFP?

 

[svoboda]

LittleDeb:

I would like to answer your question, but I don’t know that the answer I would give fits your concept of NFP. We begin at very different points so my answer will probably not satisfy.

That you use the word “risk” in the context of “pregnancy” shows that we are coming from different points of intent. This was the OP’s original point. Intent confuses the issue with many people. The means of NFP is separate than the intent in using it. When you ask the aim of NFP do you mean what is the means of NFP or what is the intent of faithful (to the Truth) users of NFP?

Well, I think I am talking about both, but primarily the intent.

The means of NFP are obviously the careful measurement of fertility signs and abstinence during fertile times. If done properly it is supposedly 99% effective at preventing pregnancy.

The intent of NFP can be none other than sex without possibility of pregnancy. This may be done because the (faithful) couple cannot physically, emotionally, financially etc. support additional children. But at the same time they don’t just want to abstain for years or possibly permanently, they still want to enjoy each other’s bodies and the emotional benefits of sex, so they carefully measure and have sex only when pregnancy is next to impossible.

Personally I don’t see much difference between this and birth control. Obviously the means of birth control are different, instead of carefully measuring birth control simply prevents sperm from meeting the egg. To me this is more of a technical than a moral difference, because I don’t see anything inherently wrong with preventing the sperm from meeting the egg.