Open to Life?

[LittleOne1]

Here is the Contraceptive article I found by that professor Dr. May. I think it points out some good theological stuff that really makes sense as to why contraception is different than NFP.
ewtn.com/library/PROLIFE/CF5.TXT

It is a little long though so maybe read it in bits and pieces. I hope maybe this will be food for my fellow brothers and sisters struggling with this teaching to consider. Let me know what you think.
Littleone1

 

[manualman]

Alan, chew on this:

NFP remains open to life because the couple, when using it to avoid pregnancy, must refrain from relations for a good number of days each month. Believe me, you ponder the seriousness of your reason EVERY month that way.

ABC isn’t that way. The method contains nothing to nudge you back towards considering more children. Rather the opposite, it encourages you to change your thinking about sex to one of gratification (or confirms you in it if that’s already your attitude).

NFP works extremely well when the rules are followed and there isn’t a past history of pill use (messes with cycle long after quitting). But the following the rules takes hard discipline and challenges you on the seriousness of your reason. MOST of the NFP couples I know DO have a ‘what the heck’ baby, including me. Of about 15 couples I know of in whom this is true, we all knew where we were at in the cycle and decided to see what would happen! That’s how NFP keeps you open to life.

 

[beckers]

I would like to comment that I agree with not taking the pill, but would consider sterilization of myself.

On the thought of medical necessary surgery, is that still interfering with what could be God’s plan?

You would want to freely damage your body? The body that God created in his image because you are having a difficult trust in his future plans for you? Submitting and trusting in God’s will is a cross we all have to bare. It’s hard but we have to push our wills and desires aside and accept his. Please reconsider your plan to destory/alter your body.

 

[stayathomemommy]

being open to life is a life long commitment. if we are only open to life for as long as we want and once we have “enough” children we are no longer open to life then God really was never part of the equation at all, it was always our own selfishness guiding us.

 

[Joya]

The “open to life” phrase causes a tremedous amount of confusion. It isn’t meant to be taken as literally as people think it is. I think I heard Dr. Janet Smith address it and she said it was translated from Latin (the language Humane Vitae was written in) to English. The translation is kind of “off” so to speak. And at the moment I don’t know how to explain what the phrase really means. And I am unsure if those who have attempted to explain “open to life” on this thread are correct either. Does anyone know where to look to find the answer?

Otherwise, there is no way a couple who uses scientific knowledge to time sex for the purpose of avoiding pregnancy is remaining more “open to life” than those who contracept.

It seems to be a problem with semantics and to avoid confusing Catholics more, a clearer translation should be made.

 

[djglci6]

I want to thank everybody for their thoughts, opinions.

It seems some people see grey and some see absolutes.

As a convert to Catholicism, I can understand why people leave the Church. In my experience or opinion, the Catholic Church is about absolutes. And when as humans we fall short, it leads to a tremendous amount of guilt, denial, etc. I understand now why many people refer to Catholicism as a “guilt” religion. While we can confess our sins to priests, it affects the core of the human to know that you continually fall short because of the absolutes.

It reminds of the parable starting in Luke 7 verse 37 about the sinner woman washing Jesus’ feet. How did Jesus change the paradigm of the absolutes of the Old Testament?

For me, The Church is absolute in her “pre-conception” (conception of life, not contraception) rules, but the same absolutes are not equally applied to end of life issues. Is the meaning of “open to life” absolute to take whatever measures available to extend one’s life beyond the natural consequence? For Catholics, in my opinion, it seems this becomes grey, and fuzzy. Often, I hear that God gives us the knowledge and talent to do whatever is necessary, but is it right?

I think about the replies I have seen, and realize that without great reason not to conceive a child, both my wife and I may be committing a mortal sin. So, if the Church is about absolutes, does that mean my only option is to leave the Church? I have four wonderful children, and I know in my mind I am not ready to revisit the thought of more until several years from now. For me to have a discussion every month is rather a moot point. Maybe in two years, maybe in three, I don’t know. If even NFP is wrongly used as birth control in the since of not truly being open, what is the point?

My wife and I have had serious discussions around this, and while I don’t think my wife would ever leave the Church. I may come to that point. If life is about absolutes within the Church, I fall seriously short all the time. I am not trying to pick and choose the “rules” that I think apply, or I should live my life by. I seriously wish life was that easy. What would Jesus do?

 

[Feedmysheep]

I offer this in the spirit of humility and love, brother.

In your original post, you stated,

I am not prepared to sacrifice more.

Ask yourself, would you be willing to look Jesus in the face on His way to die for your sins and say the same?

FMS

 

[Belle10]

If life is about absolutes within the Church, I fall seriously short all the time.

Life is about God’s absolutes, which the Church teaches. I think if you view these issues in light of, just as you asked, what would Jesus do, that’ll help. Jesus would be open to His Father’s plan, not His own wants. In the garden, He begged His Father to let the cup pass from Him, but ultimately did what God planned for Him, knowing obeying His Father was right. In the same way, we should submit our wills to our Father’s will, which is always perfect and the best place to be.

I’m 28, so I have a lot of fertile years ahead of me. I get nervous sometimes wondering how many children God has planned for us, knowing that my husband isn’t keen on more than 2, maybe 3. But we vowed to be open to life, open to God’s plan for our lives. I have to trust in Him, no matter how scary it might be (this is coming from someone who’s husband is out of work and who is having lots of trouble paying the bills, so don’t discount the fact that we only have one child so far as having an easier time).

As for falling short, we all do everyday. But Jesus suffered so that we can get back up and try again through His grace. Maybe you can speak with your priest or a trusted Catholic friend who can help you understand that you’re not alone in your concerns. God bless you and your family.

 

[djglci6]

I offer this in the spirit of humility and love, brother.

In your original post, you stated,

“I am not prepared to sacrifice more.”

Ask yourself, would you be willing to look Jesus in the face on His way to die for your sins and say the same?

FMS

I think it’s important you see the whole quote…from the original post in the context it was used…

“Sometimes I feel that my wife and I have sacrificed aspects of our marriage and closeness for our children, and I am not prepared to sacrifice more.”

I think I’ll leave my comment to that.

 

[Feedmysheep]

I think it’s important you see the whole quote…from the original post in the context it was used…

“Sometimes I feel that my wife and I have sacrificed aspects of our marriage and closeness for our children, and I am not prepared to sacrifice more.”

I think I’ll leave my comment to that.

Fair enough, and point taken.

Even taken in its entirety, I’m not sure there’s anything that we will ever be asked to sacrifice that will come close to what Our Lord did for us.

You’re in my prayers.
FMS

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I think that just by virtue of using NFP a couple becomes open to life even if they decide to use NFP to postpone a pregnancy indefinitely. Why? Because they are not using any outside chemicals or barriers or anything. God designed women to be fertile only a couple of days a month. The couple is not obligated to be intimate that specific time in order to be “open to life”. Older people can still be intimate even if they are no longer fertile. They are being open to life. What happens if a couple happens to not be “in the mood” during the fertile time? In order to be “open to life” they are not obligated to be intimate.

Also, as a side topic, how come all the gynecological research seems to come out with different methods of contraceptives? Why is it that we cannot get more effective ways to p(name removed by moderator)oint the day of ovulation? Wouldn’t that help infertile women to achieve a pregnancy naturally instead of turning to IVF?

 

[whatevergirl]

I am a Catholic convert. I converted after being married to a cradle Catholic for seven years. It took having a good priest help me to understand more about being Catholic and a part of the community.

I have four children ranging from 11 to 1 in age.

My wife and I have been discussing the future of our family. My wife currently provides support to the family by staying home. Two of my school age children attend Catholic school. We live within our means and are not extravagant in anything we buy or do. We try to live a modest live without trying to keep up with the neighbors. We are also very active in volunteer work for the church/school.

I work approx. 40-55 hours a week in my job that is about 30 minutes from my house. I also am attending graduate school, although I have only three classes to finish my degree. My time at home is at a premium to provide time to four children.

The issue at hand is around contraception. I am at a point that I am happy with 4 children and feel that I am stressed for time for everyone as it is. I feel I have freely been open to life, and I do not want the potential for anymore children. Sometimes I feel that my wife and I have sacrificed aspects of our marriage and closeness for our children, and I am not prepared to sacrifice more. I do not want more children for these reasons. If we have more children, I am not sure what the outcome will be on our family.

My wife and I have talked about this several times, and I am satisfied with the argument that God never gives us more than we can handle. I am not convinced by the logic (or lack thereof) in being open to God’s plan and contraception affects that plan. I think of all the people that are treated and saved from heart attacks everyday. How does that affect God’s plan? If you say that if God wanted them to die they would, is it not the same true for the creation of life? Does God allow us to develop technologies for both good/bad use? I think yes, but I think it is a very narrow view to say that it is sinful to affect God’s plan at the start of life, but it is okay to affect that plan by life saving technologies/treatments. How can one choose?

I feel that I have 4 beautiful children, and I have been open to life. But I am at a point that, I feel I have no more time to give to another. Do I sacrifice a job to work less hours/less money for the time and potentially force my wife to work? Do we try to reduce spending even more to accommodate that different job? How do I make time for everyone, including myself and my relationship with my wife, and be fair? I am at a point I feel that if for some reason NFP fails, the scale will tip. Then what?

As you can see, I have put a great deal of time, thought, and prayer into trying to come to terms with this. I have even considered a celibate marriage, but I think that is counter to marriage itself.

I am open for some different thoughts on this, and humbly ask for prayer.

In God’s Grace, thank you.

Hello–I just wanted to add to this thread if I may. I went to confession over the weekend, and I asked the priest what a couple should think about when it comes to being open to life. He said that the RCC does not mandate that every couple have large families, he said it shoud be determined through prayers, etc…and the couple coming to an agreement. But, a couple should follow NFP, and if life was conceived through them, they should be open to it. That pretty much sums up what he believes the RCC’s teachings to mean for married people. I think that if NFP ‘fails’ as you say (I am now rediscovering NFP myself) then it would be God’s will, I feel…and He will provide. Not just financially, but He will provide the emotional and mental strength needed to take on another life. I can’t say that I speak for myself anymore…I really feel like God has taken over my thinking…I am actually considered *trying to have *another baby, as crazy as that sounds to me. But, right now, we are going to follow NFP, and not try to have a baby, but in some ways, I think I’d like to try to have one again. I work fulltime, and probably wouldn’t quit, but I could do my job from home…I’m sure my employer would allow it…at least part time. See how God planted that ‘next’ thought in my mind? My husband is in transition, but something tells me that he will do just fine in 2008. I’m now 39, so for me to even think about having another baby, has to be God’s grace.

So…NFP should work they say, 99% effective, to prevent pregnancy…but if it doesn’t work, and you have another baby, know that it is God’s will. I know that may sound simplistic, but perhaps we complicate our lives. I speak from experience on that. Good luck to you, and I’ll keep you in my prayers.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…As a convert to Catholicism, I can understand why people leave the Church. In my experience or opinion, the Catholic Church is about absolutes. And when as humans we fall short, it leads to a tremendous amount of guilt, denial, etc. I understand now why many people refer to Catholicism as a “guilt” religion. While we can confess our sins to priests, it affects the core of the human to know that you continually fall short because of the absolutes.

It reminds of the parable starting in Luke 7 verse 37 about the sinner woman washing Jesus’ feet. How did Jesus change the paradigm of the absolutes of the Old Testament? …

As you are a convert to Catholicism, this part of Familiaris Consortio stood out to me. I know these teachings can be difficult and present challenges as we try to live them. We are called to contiunal re-conversion to Christ. Jesus knew that we would fall, we shouldn’t be surprised when we find that we fall short, but we should turn our hearts back to Christ.

**
*

*Gradualness and Conversion *

9. …we must all set ourselves in opposition through a conversion of mind and heart, following Christ Crucified by denying our own selfishness: such a conversion cannot fail to have a beneficial and renewing influence even on the structures of society.
What is needed is a continuous, permanent conversion which, while requiring an interior detachment from every evil and an adherence to good in its fullness, is brought about concretely in steps which lead us ever forward. Thus a dynamic process develops, one which advances gradually with the progressive integration of the gifts of God and the demands of His definitive and absolute love in the entire personal and social life of man. Therefore an educational growth process is necessary, in order that individual believers, families and peoples, even civilization itself, by beginning from what they have already received of the mystery of Christ, may patiently be led forward, arriving at a richer understanding and a fuller integration of this mystery in their lives.
*
**

Another Church document that may interest you is a document the Church prepared for Confessors to help guide us loving and help us when we fall: http://www.cin.org/vatcong/vademec.html

 

[Joya]

Even taken in its entirety, I’m not sure there’s anything that we will ever be asked to sacrifice that will come close to what Our Lord did for us.

FMS

Christ freely made the ultimate sacrifice for us. He doesn’t ask us to reciprocate by suffering agonizingly for him. He gave himself freely to us.

This man is already suffering enough by agonizing over the b/c issue. I mean no disrespect, but I am often puzzled why people come to these forums seeking “permission” so to speak to go against the Church’s teaching by explaining their special situations. You are not going to get a wide variety of perspectives as most people here adamantly support the Church’s ban on contraception under ALL circumstances. I don’t necessarily agree with this sentiment and I know many priests and theologians don’t either.

My husband and I were in a similar situation and did not consult CAF for advice. There is something to be said for thinking for yourself and prayerfully using your conscience (and yes, I am aware that some will say that you cannot make an informed decision with your conscience to use contraception without sinning, but that is another argument for another thread). I have supported NFP on other threads in the past, but have said and will say again that it is not for everybody and for all situations.

In a moral theology class I took at a Catholic college, the professor stated that it was more sinful to continually deny your spouse the marital act through periodic abstinence (“Sorry, not tonight, honey,” he’d say) than to block egg from meeting sperm, thus avoiding pregnancy. In this man’s case, the idea of ensuring that egg and sperm are not directly blocked has taken precedence over the health of his life and his marriage.

OP, stop talking to us and delve deeply into your soul to make what is the best decision for you, your wife, and your family. And in the final analysis, no reason is good enough for leaving the Church.

 

[whatevergirl]

Christ freely made the ultimate sacrifice for us. He doesn’t ask us to reciprocate by suffering agonizingly for him. He gave himself freely to us.

Hi Joya! I have to ponder this…interesting perspective.

This man is already suffering enough by agonizing over the b/c issue. I mean no disrespect, but I am often puzzled why people come to these forums seeking “permission” so to speak to go against the Church’s teaching by explaining their special situations. You are not going to get a wide variety of perspectives as most people here adamantly support the Church’s ban on contraception under ALL circumstances. I don’t necessarily agree with this sentiment and I know many priests and theologians don’t either.

My husband and I were in a similar situation and did not consult CAF for advice. There is something to be said for thinking for yourself and prayerfully using your conscience (and yes, I am aware that some will say that you cannot make an informed decision with your conscience to use contraception without sinning, but that is another argument for another thread). I have supported NFP on other threads in the past, but have said and will say again that it is not for everybody and for all situations.

In a moral theology class I took at a Catholic college, the professor stated that it was more sinful to continually deny your spouse the marital act through periodic abstinence (“Sorry, not tonight, honey,” he’d say) than to block egg from meeting sperm, thus avoiding pregnancy. In this man’s case, the idea of ensuring that egg and sperm are not directly blocked has taken precedence over the health of his life and his marriage.

…‘the health of his life and marriage.’ So, is the professor stating that if we don’t have sex whenever we please, that we are hurting our health…and our marriage? Is our health, life, and marriage, the sum total of ‘getting some’ whenever I want it? Not that I am being contrary for no reason but going with that…periodic abstinence…what maybe a week or so out of 30 days, is considered detrimental to a marriage? So, he would be for birth control, and possibly injuring the wife? I took the bc pill for years, and I had migraines, heart racing episodes, crying spells…and I am a healthy woman. If this was a lay school, I would not find the trouble with what he’s saying, but he is teaching at a Catholic college? Joya. You are a very cerebral person, and it is a wonderful trait that you have. I like reading your posts. But, just because the guy taught at a Catholic college, doesn’t mean the RCC condones his teaching. I think that what he is teaching is sadly dangerous for young people…because it paints the picture that the sum total of a marriage, and one’s health rests on sex life with no limits. Sex isn’t a right, it’s a gift. My bone isn’t to pick with you, Joya…it’s with a professor teaching at a Catholic school helping to shape the minds of our youth, and giving them misinformation.

OP, stop talking to us and delve deeply into your soul to make what is the best decision for you, your wife, and your family. And in the final analysis, no reason is good enough for leaving the Church.

 

[Joya]

Hi Whatevergirl,
I like reading your posts, too.

No, my prof. was not implying that people should be able to have sex anytime they want even to the detriment of the wife’s health. He was definitely not that cavalier about sex within marriage and I found him to be a thoughtful, serious Catholic. Btw, this was at a Catholic college, not known for its orthodoxy, however.

He gave the examples that it would be a shame to be practicing nfp and say, an anniversary or a birthday arrived while the wife was fertile and she had to say no to the marital embrace for that occasion. What he was really getting at, I think, was that the married couple’s closeness, bonding, and intimacy should be the top priority rather than the conviction that no blocking of egg and sperm should take place. This was the point I was trying to drive at the OP.

Now, I know that for many couples commited to nfp, abstaining through a special time would not be a problem and they would probably offer it up. For other couples, this aspect may present a dark side to nfp, which I think should be acknowledged.

Much of life is about sacrificing one value for another. Do we not enjoy the convenience of cars to the detriment of the environment? (and no, I am not a proponent of stopping global warming). The same can be said about abc. While those who use it are directly interfering with blocking the potential for human life, perhaps they are not sacrificing the well-being of their marriage.

 

[whatevergirl]

Hi Whatevergirl,
I like reading your posts, too.

No, my prof. was not implying that people should be able to have sex anytime they want even to the detriment of the wife’s health. He was definitely not that cavalier about sex within marriage and I found him to be a thoughtful, serious Catholic. Btw, this was at a Catholic college, not known for its orthodoxy, however.

He gave the examples that it would be a shame to be practicing nfp and say, an anniversary or a birthday arrived while the wife was fertile and she had to say no to the marital embrace for that occasion. What he was really getting at, I think, was that the married couple’s closeness, bonding, and intimacy should be the top priority rather than the conviction that no blocking of egg and sperm should take place. This was the point I was trying to drive at the OP.

Now, I know that for many couples commited to nfp, abstaining through a special time would not be a problem and they would probably offer it up. For other couples, this aspect may present a dark side to nfp, which I think should be acknowledged.

Much of life is about sacrificing one value for another. Do we not enjoy the convenience of cars to the detriment of the environment? (and no, I am not a proponent of stopping global warming). The same can be said about abc. While those who use it are directly interfering with blocking the potential for human life, perhaps they are not sacrificing the well-being of their marriage.

Yes, that is a good point, (your last sentence) because I can’t help but wonder with my husband and me, now that we are on a path to NFP again–if there might be a tendency to be a little tenative in our sex life, since we are unsure if we would like to have a new baby in our lives. But, we are open to it…which I think it the premise. I think the RCC has this view, because it looks at sex as God does–that it comes with responsibility. So, maybe if someone doesn’t want a baby at a particular time, then they should be cautious using NFP. (cautious meaning having sex during a prescribed infertile time) That is largely what is behind the book Love & Responsibility…with love, comes responsibility. No one died from too little sex. Well, to the best of our knowledge, right? Hope you have a good Christmas, Joya.

 

[Joya]

Yes, that is a good point, (your last sentence) because I can’t help but wonder with my husband and me, now that we are on a path to NFP again–if there might be a tendency to be a little tenative in our sex life, since we are unsure if we would like to have a new baby in our lives. But, we are open to it…which I think it the premise. I think the RCC has this view, because it looks at sex as God does–that it comes with responsibility. So, maybe if someone doesn’t want a baby at a particular time, then they should be cautious using NFP. (cautious meaning having sex during a prescribed infertile time) That is largely what is behind the book Love & Responsibility…with love, comes responsibility. No one died from too little sex. Well, to the best of our knowledge, right? Hope you have a good Christmas, Joya.

Yes, I think this was a thought-provoking point that my professor was making and definitely challenges the RCC’s teaching that abc is intrinsically evil. Since becoming married and going through two difficult deliveries, this subject has been at the forefront of my mind. I love JPII as well and highly respect him, even though I have argued in favor of abc under certain circumstances in earlier posts on this thread.

I was also reading the your thread about the recent discovery you made regarding nfp and the marital embrace and was happy for you.

Merry X-mas to you, too!

 

[djglci6]

A couple of things…

First, being a convert the Catholicism for roughly five years and married to a cradle Catholic, I am seeking knowledge. Knowledge is having information to make a sound decision in lines with culture, religion, family history, etc (what makes you – your) I definitely do not use CAF looking for rationalization, permission, or an answer in line for what I think at the moment. It allows me to communicate with a cross section of people who are practicing Catholics. It pushes me to reflect on my faith and/or decision making processes.

Secondly, I don’t think my situation is special at all, my guess is that many other couples face the same challenges. Their perspective may be different because of their life situations. I only put in the background information as to let others have a glance at the perspective that I am seeing life. Chances are that maybe my perspective is not reality. I think that is why CAF can be a good forum.

At the end of the day, My wife and I need to pray and discuss…and repeat as necessary.

My concern about CAF is that without being to “say” to someone what you are thinking, the message “typed” is not always the message “received.” Then people are hurt and take situations personal. With that said, I think there needs to be a level of respect for everyone who posts, we are all human, and we don’t all have the answers. More importantly, we are not living the circumstances that the person posting is.

Thanks for pushing me to think and pray more.

 

[Brenda_V]

I think about the replies I have seen, and realize that without great reason not to conceive a child, both my wife and I may be committing a mortal sin. So, if the Church is about absolutes, does that mean my only option is to leave the Church? I have four wonderful children, and I know in my mind I am not ready to revisit the thought of more until several years from now. For me to have a discussion every month is rather a moot point. Maybe in two years, maybe in three, I don’t know. If even NFP is wrongly used as birth control in the since of not truly being open, what is the point?

I have removed much of this post of yours except this paragraph and I want to say that I have read your last post which showed that you are starting to “get” what some are saying here.

Okay, now to the part I highlighted in green. I know many will say that you must sit down and discuss this on a monthly basis but you know at least for two or three months that you are not emotionally ready for another pregnancy. For some of us the need for the discussion is a moot point because our own health is fragile, either mental or physical and if that were to change then we can re-visit it, so the decision is made for us before we even start charting but we use NFP in order to avoid the fertile times.

Practice NFP to avoid right now and re-visit the subject of whether you are ready for another child on a regular schedule, not necessarily monthly but I am going to guarantee if you start to practice NFP, when you are in that fertile time frame and you and your wife wish to have intercourse you will discuss whether you are ready for another child or not, even if it is nothing more than that non-verbal language married couples have a tendency to develop.

I wanted to also add that you had every right to come here to the CAF for more help in forming your conscience - knowledge is power and God wants you to have that kind of power!

I also suggest you check some of the other threads on this subject, many got closed because they got uncharitable so be aware that the later posts are not that great but the beginning ones are. There is even one on the downsides of NFP for guys especially - it was an eye opener for me, a woman and the Catholic part of the Marriage and the one insisting on NFP.

Brenda V.