Open to Life?

[Good_Daughter]

I feel that I have 4 beautiful children, and I have been open to life. But I am at a point that, I feel I have no more time to give to another. Do I sacrifice a job to work less hours/less money for the time and potentially force my wife to work? Do we try to reduce spending even more to accommodate that different job? How do I make time for everyone, including myself and my relationship with my wife, and be fair? I am at a point I feel that if for some reason NFP fails, the scale will tip. Then what?

Sometimes the best way we can be “open to life” is by taking good care of what we already have.

The Church encourages this and that is why “open to life” does not always have to mean “open to conception”. There are times when avoiding conception (even indefinitely) is the most charitable path for a married couple to take.

Are you worried about NFP failure? If you have instructors available you may want to consult with them now to ease your concerns. If your wife is currently nursing, fertility signs may be tricky to interpret. You should also feel welcome to post NFP concerns on this forum. I’ve found posters here will go out of their way to be helpful with NFP advice. Remember, although contraception isn’t fail proof, with NFP you can “tweak” things for maximum effectiveness.

I like what you said about your wife supporting the family by staying at home. If I take your meaning correctly, that is a gracious way of putting it.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Thanks for pushing me to think and pray more.

And I think that is what the best use of CAF is- to come and get diverse viewpoints that you can mull over, pray about, and discern the usefulness of.

That said, I would like to point out something from your previous post about pondering leaving the Church because it demands perfection from imperfect beings. And to that, I would like to say two things- 1. It is precisely because we are imperfect beings that we need the graces from the sacraments. The Church is a hospital for sinners and not a hotel for the saints, and all that.
2. Saying “I’m not perfect, so maybe I’ll just leave” is like my 5 year old telling me that reading is too hard, and she’s not going to try. But I understand the frustration. If we didn’t want to try and please God, this whole issue would be a non-issue. So the very fact that you’re struggling with it shows that, despite your imperfections, you’re still yearning for God.

God bless, and Merry Christmas.
FMS

p.s. for Joya, you said

Christ freely made the ultimate sacrifice for us. He doesn’t ask us to reciprocate by suffering agonizingly for him. He gave himself freely to us.

We were told by Our Lord to take up our crosses and follow him. We were told that the path to Heaven was through the narrow gate. We were told that there is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s fellow man. All of these things sound like it would involve some sort of agonizing suffering.

 

[Good_Daughter]

I am not convinced by the logic (or lack thereof) in being open to God’s plan and contraception affects that plan. I think of all the people that are treated and saved from heart attacks everyday. How does that affect God’s plan? If you say that if God wanted them to die they would, is it not the same true for the creation of life? Does God allow us to develop technologies for both good/bad use? I think yes, but I think it is a very narrow view to say that it is sinful to affect God’s plan at the start of life, but it is okay to affect that plan by life saving technologies/treatments. How can one choose?

Contraception is not a problem because it affects God’s plan. God doesn’t need us for his plan to be fulfilled. (If God wills a heart attack to be fatal, it will be fatal, even with the best medical advances. If God wills a pregnancy to occur, it will occur, even after steilization.) Contraception is a problem because it is bad for us. The real harm in contraception is not that it prevents a baby, but that it either destroys/mutilates healthy fertility or it alters natural sexual intercourse.

Fertility and sex are perfectly designed by God. They are natural, healthy and useful. Why would we need to “treat” either like a disease?

 

[whatevergirl]

Contraception is not a problem because it affects God’s plan. God doesn’t need us for his plan to be fulfilled. (If God wills a heart attack to be fatal, it will be fatal, even with the best medical advances. If God wills a pregnancy to occur, it will occur even after steilization.) Contraception is a problem because it is bad for us. The real harm in contraception is not that it prevents a baby, but that it either destroys/mutilates healthy fertility or it alters natural sexual intercourse.

Fertility and sex are perfectly designed by God. They are natural, healthy and useful. Why would we need to “treat” them like a disease?

Nice post!

 

[whatevergirl]

Yes, I think this was a thought-provoking point that my professor was making and definitely challenges the RCC’s teaching that abc is intrinsically evil. Since becoming married and going through two difficult deliveries, this subject has been at the forefront of my mind. I love JPII as well and highly respect him, even though I have argued in favor of abc under certain circumstances in earlier posts on this thread.

I was also reading the your thread about the recent discovery you made regarding nfp and the marital embrace and was happy for you.

Merry X-mas to you, too!

I’m sorry you had two difficult deliveries. It is all in the striving, I believe…

God bless you Joya–here’s a holiday hug for you.:hug1: http://www.christmas-corner.com/images/christmas-smileys/carolers.gif

 

[duskyjewel]

Contraception is not a problem because it affects God’s plan. God doesn’t need us for his plan to be fulfilled. (If God wills a heart attack to be fatal, it will be fatal, even with the best medical advances. If God wills a pregnancy to occur, it will occur, even after steilization.) Contraception is a problem because it is bad for us. The real harm in contraception is not that it prevents a baby, but that it either destroys/mutilates healthy fertility or it alters natural sexual intercourse.

Fertility and sex are perfectly designed by God. They are natural, healthy and useful. Why would we need to “treat” either like a disease?

I think this post is actually very dangerous reasoning for the Church’s position. If we could find a contraceptive that did not alter natural intercourse or destroy or mutilate fertility, then it would be acceptable? I think that’s precisely the reason the Church has NOT stated it this way. This reasoning opens a wide barn door to contraception being okay, if we could just find ways to change what it does.

 

[Joya]

A couple of things…

First, being a convert the Catholicism for roughly five years and married to a cradle Catholic, I am seeking knowledge. Knowledge is having information to make a sound decision in lines with culture, religion, family history, etc (what makes you – your) I definitely do not use CAF looking for rationalization, permission, or an answer in line for what I think at the moment. It allows me to communicate with a cross section of people who are practicing Catholics. It pushes me to reflect on my faith and/or decision making processes.

Secondly, I don’t think my situation is special at all, my guess is that many other couples face the same challenges. Their perspective may be different because of their life situations. I only put in the background information as to let others have a glance at the perspective that I am seeing life. Chances are that maybe my perspective is not reality. I think that is why CAF can be a good forum.

At the end of the day, My wife and I need to pray and discuss…and repeat as necessary.

My concern about CAF is that without being to “say” to someone what you are thinking, the message “typed” is not always the message “received.” Then people are hurt and take situations personal. With that said, I think there needs to be a level of respect for everyone who posts, we are all human, and we don’t all have the answers. More importantly, we are not living the circumstances that the person posting is.

Thanks for pushing me to think and pray more.

Thanks for your clarification. Since you often cannot tell the tone of voice someone is using over the internet, what follows is said with kindness and charity:

After reading your original post, what I heard was, “I know the Chuch’s teaching against contraception, but I don’t want to follow it. What does everybody else think?” Maybe you aren’t aware of this, but if you post a thread like that on these forums, 99% of responses will back the Church’s position by encouraging you to stay with nfp. That’s when I feel the argument starts going around in circles (I’ve seen many like this in the two years I’ve been here). So I put my two cents in and said you have to pray and think it over for yourself.

You made a good point that you came here seeking knowledge. I respect that. But if you feel strongly enough that nfp is not compatible in your and your wife’s married life, then you will get virtually no support or justification here for that and that’s why I recommended separating yourself from the forums and making the decision yourself. You will get quotations from many doctrinal documents such as the catechism, Humane Vitae, etc. and other personal rationalizations for why nfp is morally superior. Does that frustrate you when you are seeking other perspectives?

I think nfp has the potential to enhance marriages and can really be a beautiful method if the couple is totally commited to it. But I don’t think it should or can be a “one size fits all” method.

My parents had six children in 12 years and guess what? They used contraception in between pregnancies to space us (barrier method). They also continued to use the barrier method when they decided to stop at six. Did they sin and are they sinning right now by using contraception although they are in their 50’s? On the other hand, I know a couple who has used nfp so accurately that they have had two children-just what they want-in nine years of marriage.

I think both methods (abc and nfp) can be used for both life-giving and selfish purposes. Continue thinking and praying to form your conscience in a spirit that fosters love and peace for you and your family.

God Bless You!

 

[Good_Daughter]

I think this post is actually very dangerous reasoning for the Church’s position. If we could find a contraceptive that did not alter natural intercourse or destroy or mutilate fertility, then it would be acceptable? I think that’s precisely the reason the Church has NOT stated it this way. This reasoning opens a wide barn door to contraception being okay, if we could just find ways to change what it does.

A contraceptive that does not alter natural intercourse or destroy/mutilate fertility ceases to be a contraceptive. How else could a contraceptive possibly work?

Non-contraceptive birth control, also called fertility awareness/NFP, does not alter natural intercourse or destroy/mutilate fertility. That is why the Church considers it acceptable when necessary.

 

[Jennifer_J]

They also continued to use the barrier method when they decided to stop at six. Did they sin and are they sinning right now by using contraception although they are in their 50’s? !

Objectively, yes, it’s sinful–subjectively, I have no idea and THAT’s not anyone’s place to judge but God (and perhaps a confessor).

Jennifer

 

[whatevergirl]

I think at this stage in my faith…I have asked myself the question…would Jesus tell me to take artifical contraception? Would He advocate condoms? The answer is no. And in watching a video just now…which shows the massive universe, with a speaker talking about how awsome and HUGE our galaxy is…HE CARES ABOUT US. He knows us by name. How could we think that a God that knows all of the stars by name, and us as well–wouldn’t care about the sex life He Himself designed? He is an awesome God, and He did not leave anything to chance. He does not think like us, with our limits and fears. He has no fear, and truthfully, I think when I have contracepted in my life, I was fearful of so many things…which caused me to take it.

I can’t tell anyone else how to live their lives, but I will say that God cares about our tiny planet, because He made it. When you look at pictures of space…wow, you gain a perspective of how SMALL we really are on earth, yet God cares about us…and what we even do ‘behind closed doors’ when we think no one is looking. I speak as a reformed contraception thinker…I think contraception has created a society of fear. And Jesus always told us…

‘Be not afraid.’

The man who died for our sins, built our universe…and we think He can not help us in our lives? We think that His plan for our sex lives is ‘wrong?’ God is awesome. His plans for us are AWESOME. And one more thought–we don’t change God’s plans. He would like if we went along with them…but His will, will transpire…just imagine if we cooperate!

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Feedmysheep]

I think when I have contracepted in my life, I was fearful of so many things…which caused me to take it.
I think contraception has created a society of fear. And Jesus always told us…

‘Be not afraid.’

Just my 2 cents.

This is an awesome point. Truly great. In fact, I’m thinking back to when we used to contracept, and the case of every single contracepting couple I know, and sure enough, fear is at the root of it.

 

[Joya]

This is an awesome point. Truly great. In fact, I’m thinking back to when we used to contracept, and the case of every single contracepting couple I know, and sure enough, fear is at the root of it.

This is a good point. However, it’s important to remember that simply because a married couple is using nfp, it doesn’t automatically make them sinless or morally superior to those who contracept. Nfp can be used with a contraceptive mentality. It is just as possible to use nfp to avoid pregnancy by restricting sex only to the infertile times out of fear just as contracepting couples do.

Case in point: back in 2004 when my husband and I were being trained in nfp and going over charts with our instructor, she commented that we were her only clients who used nfp in its true spirit (and she worked through our diocese). Everyone else she worked with used it as another birth control method, she explained. This was an enlightening point she made as at time I wasn’t aware that couples could approach nfp in that manner, but it is entirely possible. Now I’ve come to realize that there are more Catholics using nfp with this attitude while proponents of nfp may be giving them the thumbs up in their practice of marital chastity.

 

[Belle10]

This is an awesome point. Truly great. In fact, I’m thinking back to when we used to contracept, and the case of every single contracepting couple I know, and sure enough, fear is at the root of it.

I agree with you - agreeing with whatevergirl!! When we used to contracept, it was out of fear of getting pregnant. Why were we afraid? Because we shouldn’t have been in the position to get pregnant yet. That’s why God has set sex within marriage.

I’m so thankful to God for His forgiveness!! :bowdown: :heaven:

 

[Feedmysheep]

This is a good point. However, it’s important to remember that simply because a married couple is using nfp, it doesn’t automatically make them sinless or morally superior to those who contracept. Nfp can be used with a contraceptive mentality. It is just as possible to use nfp to avoid pregnancy by restricting sex only to the infertile times out of fear just as contracepting couples do.

Case in point: back in 2004 when my husband and I were being trained in nfp and going over charts with our instructor, she commented that we were her only clients who used nfp in its true spirit (and she worked through our diocese). Everyone else she worked with used it as another birth control method, she explained. This was an enlightening point she made as at time I wasn’t aware that couples could approach nfp in that manner, but it is entirely possible. Now I’ve come to realize that there are more Catholics using nfp with this attitude while proponents of nfp may be giving them the thumbs up in their practice of marital chastity.

Of course. I include NFP as contraception when abused, as it easily can be.

FMS

 

[whatevergirl]

This is a good point. However, it’s important to remember that simply because a married couple is using nfp, it doesn’t automatically make them sinless or morally superior to those who contracept. Nfp can be used with a contraceptive mentality. It is just as possible to use nfp to avoid pregnancy by restricting sex only to the infertile times out of fear just as contracepting couples do.

Case in point: back in 2004 when my husband and I were being trained in nfp and going over charts with our instructor, she commented that we were her only clients who used nfp in its true spirit (and she worked through our diocese). Everyone else she worked with used it as another birth control method, she explained. This was an enlightening point she made as at time I wasn’t aware that couples could approach nfp in that manner, but it is entirely possible. Now I’ve come to realize that there are more Catholics using nfp with this attitude while proponents of nfp may be giving them the thumbs up in their practice of marital chastity.

God is not against birth control, Joya…He is against artifical contraception. He is against, using chemicals or a condom to stop pregnancy. Ultimately, I learned that why I took the pill was because I feared having a baby. Why do people contracept? Because they are fearful of having a baby, and all of the responsibilities it brings. And perhaps fearful if the woman has a medical condition, or difficult pregnancies in the past–there are a myriad of reasons we can be fearful…I’m just naming a few.

Love and responsibility, should go hand in hand. Now, NFP is 99% effective, I have read…but, isn’t there also that chance, that because of God’s will…you could get pregnant, even if you and your husband charted everything to the letter? And if we take artifical contraception, that is not allowing God’s will to transpire–because we eliminate the chance of ever getting pregnant.

If you really think to why women take contraception, is because either they or their spouses or both fear having a baby. ‘I’m not ready,’ and ‘we don’t have the money,’ and ‘I don’t know if we can handle another baby,’ and all the rest are excuses I have made myself throughout my marriage…while on the pill. And for me, it translates into fear of having a baby. Period. It’s ok to admit we are fearful Joya…we are human.

And using NFP doesn’t make anyone morally superior to another…it just shows that a person is willing to surrender their sex lives to God. When I was taking the pill…I wasn’t surrendering that part of myself to Him. Neither was my husband.

Strange thing happens when we surrender everything to God…we actually become empowered.

 

[gardenswithkids]

A couple of things…

First, being a convert the Catholicism for roughly five years and married to a cradle Catholic, I am seeking knowledge. Knowledge is having information to make a sound decision in lines with culture, religion, family history, etc (what makes you – your) I definitely do not use CAF looking for rationalization, permission, or an answer in line for what I think at the moment. It allows me to communicate with a cross section of people who are practicing Catholics. It pushes me to reflect on my faith and/or decision making processes.

Secondly, I don’t think my situation is special at all, my guess is that many other couples face the same challenges. …

As you already realize, many people have been in similar situations. I’m a cradle Catholic and my husband is a convert to Catholicism now, but earlier in our marriage we used contraception and went to his Protestant Church. When I came back and my husband joined the Catholic Church, we faced and overcame similar fears. I agree with what some posters above said about fear being the reason that many turn to contraception. Don’t be afraid of fertility.

As your oldest is 11, I want to encourage you that your very close to entering a different stage of marriage. We didn’t have many people willing to baby sit once our family grew beyond three children. Once our oldest reached the age where he could babysit, my husband and I found we could go on little “dates” which helps renew the spark to our marriage and give us a little break together. After putting the younger children to bed, we sometime go out for coffee or ice cream. We don’t have to leave for long, but even just a few moments away, alone together, really helps to re-connect with each other.

 

[whatevergirl]

As you already realize, many people have been in similar situations. I’m a cradle Catholic and my husband is a convert to Catholicism now, but earlier in our marriage we used contraception and went to his Protestant Church. When I came back and my husband joined the Catholic Church, we faced and overcame similar fears. I agree with what the post above said about fear being the reason that many use contraception. Don’t be afraid of fertility.

As your oldest is 11, I want to encourage you that your very close to entering a different stage of marriage. We didn’t have many people willing to baby sit once our family grew beyond three children. Once our oldest reached the age where he could babysit, my husband and I found we could go on little “dates” which helps renew the spark to our marriage and give us a little break together. After putting the younger children to bed, we sometime go out for coffee or ice cream. We don’t have to leave for long, but even just a few moments away, alone together, really helps to re-connect with each other.

This is uplifting! You mean…my kids can babysit a new baby, if my husband and I agree to have another? I like this!

 

[whatevergirl]

I agree with you - agreeing with whatevergirl!! When we used to contracept, it was out of fear of getting pregnant. Why were we afraid? Because we shouldn’t have been in the position to get pregnant yet. That’s why God has set sex within marriage.

I’m so thankful to God for His forgiveness!! :bowdown: :heaven:

That just occured to me like yesterday…My husband is still a little fearful…I haven’t pushed. But he is most willing to attend NFP classes with me…so that is a start. Fear actually is a common motivator with much in life. I don’t want to live fearful of things. Just because we use NFP doesn’t mean God will give us another baby…if that is His will, then we are open to it. Being open to life means just that. Doesn’t mean you have to have 10 kids…it just means being open to the possibility of having a baby…even if it isn’t our right time.

 

[Belle10]

That just occured to me like yesterday…My husband is still a little fearful…I haven’t pushed. But he is most willing to attend NFP classes with me…so that is a start. Fear actually is a common motivator with much in life. I don’t want to live fearful of things. Just because we use NFP doesn’t mean God will give us another baby…if that is His will, then we are open to it. Being open to life means just that. Doesn’t mean you have to have 10 kids…it just means being open to the possibility of having a baby…even if it isn’t our right time.

I guess you could say we use NFP…we don’t chart, we don’t avoid, we don’t try…we just go with it…

From about 9 months after we were married until our 2 year anniversary, we trusted God (found out we were pregnant with our daughter on our 2 year anniversary ). When she was about 9 months old, I miscarried (we hadn’t been trying or avoiding). I haven’t become pregnant again (yet ) and it’s been almost 14 months since my miscarriage (again, not avoiding, not trying). I often talk about my desire to have more kids, and my husband (who is not Catholic) always says “in God’s time, it’ll happen.” (By the way, I’m 28, he’s 29, so we still have many years (hopefully) of fertility ahead of us, so I know my perspective on things may be different than people who already have several or many children.) I know my husband is right, and knowing God has things under control is a great feeling. :extrahappy: Lately I’ve really been hoping God’s plan includes getting a positive pregnancy test around Christmas )

Have a great evening everyone, and God bless you!

 

[gardenswithkids]

This is uplifting! You mean…my kids can babysit a new baby, if my husband and I agree to have another? I like this!

Yes, I do too! I mentioned it because the op seems just on the cusp of obtaining relief, but he probably doesn’t realize it. He seemed ready to give up and quit as he sees no end in sight. Of course, this depends on the baby and the older children. I didn’t leave a brand newborn with mine. And we don’t abuse this either–we usually bring back ice cream for the “babysitters”, or pay them if we’re out for a longer time.