Openess to Life Question

[Alix1912]

There are a lot of Threads about being open to life and God’s plan, and not preventing pregnancy without a good reason. That being said; how does the reverse of that work?

If you are trying to have a baby and are not conceiving, what does that mean? Has God said no to you? Can you go through infertility treatments?

It would seem that if any form of artificially stopping conception in any way is bad, that the flip side of any form of artificially causing it would be bad too.

Any thoughts?

 

[iluvmybabies]

There are a lot of Threads about being open to life and God’s plan, and not preventing pregnancy without a good reason. That being said; how does the reverse of that work?

If you are trying to have a baby and are not conceiving, what does that mean? Has God said no to you? Can you go through infertility treatments?

It would seem that if any form of artificially stopping conception in any way is bad, that the flip side of any form of artificially causing it would be bad too.

Any thoughts?

I have read that any form of artificial insamination is not accepted… I think it’s a shame though because well, I mean God gave us intelligence, I don’t think He just wanted us to give up hope on child bearing and thus allowed us to be able to help us achieve the wonderful gift of having children, but that’s just my opinion…

I have read that if it’s meant to be, it’s meant to be…

I mean God could have very well allowed me to have more children if he wanted to other times but I didn’t so He felt it wasn’t meant to be…

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

**The only “rule” is that conception must occur from a normal, unaltered marital act. So certain fertility treatments/drugs are ok…but nothing that causes the conception/implantation to occur without a completed, normal marital act.

There are a lot of couples here who suffer from infertility who could give you good insight into the personal side of the story.**

 

[TAS2000]

IGod gave us intelligence, I don’t think He just wanted us to give up hope on child bearing and thus allowed us to be able to help us achieve the wonderful gift of having children, but that’s just my opinion…

Yes God gave us intellegence, but that doesn’t mean anythign we can think of is a good thing. If we found medical ways to cure the problem casuing the infertility, like blocked tubes, or medicines to stimulate lining growth or ovultion or increase sperm count…those would be good uses of our intellegnece to help fertility problems. Coming up with ways to remove the mother, the father, or introduce a third party into the marital act like IVF, artifical insemination or surrogates are bad uses of our intellegence.

For an analogy, creating cloned human beings just to keep around for spare parts would be wrong, but figuring out how to clone a healthy replacement organ from a few cells of the orginal failing one would be good. All intellegence is not use wisely.

 

[Em_in_FL]

As Malia mentioned - the conjugal love between husband and wife must not be altered.
Fertility treatments, such as medications, surgeries, etc that help fix a fertility problem may be perfectly legitimate.

Here’s the section from the Catechism… (LINK)

2374
Couples who discover that they are sterile suffer greatly. “What will you give me,” asks Abraham of God, "for I continue childless?"164 And Rachel cries to her husband Jacob, "Give me children, or I shall die!"165

2375
Research aimed at reducing human sterility is to be encouraged, on condition that it is placed "at the service of the human person, of his inalienable rights, and his true and integral good according to the design and will of God."166

** 2376
Techniques that entail the dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple (donation of sperm or ovum, surrogate uterus), are gravely immoral. These techniques (heterologous artificial insemination and fertilization) infringe the child’s right to be born of a father and mother known to him and bound to each other by marriage. They betray the spouses’ "right to become a father and a mother only through each other."167

2377
Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children."168 "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses’ union. . . . Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person."169**

2378
A child is not something owed to one, but is a gift. The “supreme gift of marriage” is a human person. A child may not be considered a piece of property, an idea to which an alleged “right to a child” would lead. In this area, only the child possesses genuine rights: the right “to be the fruit of the specific act of the conjugal love of his parents,” and "the right to be respected as a person from the moment of his conception."170

2379
The Gospel shows that physical sterility is not an absolute evil. Spouses who still suffer from infertility after exhausting legitimate medical procedures should unite themselves with the Lord’s Cross, the source of all spiritual fecundity. They can give expression to their generosity by adopting abandoned children or performing demanding services for others.

HTH!

 

[iluvmybabies]

Yes God gave us intellegence, but that doesn’t mean anythign we can think of is a good thing. If we found medical ways to cure the problem casuing the infertility, like blocked tubes, or medicines to stimulate lining growth or ovultion or increase sperm count…those would be good uses of our intellegnece to help fertility problems. Coming up with ways to remove the mother, the father, or introduce a third party into the marital act like IVF, artifical insemination or surrogates are bad uses of our intellegence.

Ok well I didn’t say to use our intelligence in a bad way…Why would surrogate mothers be wrong? I mean if the husband’s and wives you know, sperm and egg are united and fertilized, but the mother can’t hold a child in, why is it wrong for someone else to hold their baby? Their baby was made with love just not in the wife’s vagina because she can’t hold a baby??? I am just wondering…

For an analogy, creating cloned human beings just to keep around for spare parts would be wrong, but figuring out how to clone a healthy replacement organ from a few cells of the orginal failing one would be good. All intellegence is not use wisely.

I agree with you on this, I don’t think anyone should ever condone to something like that but yes that would be a good thing…And I agree not all is used within ethical and religious methods nor wisely…It’s a shame too…

 

[Em_in_FL]

iluvmybabies - please see my post just above… it talks about surrogacy also…

 

[iluvmybabies]

I know of a family whom both wanted children but she kept having miscarriages, it was very painful and difficult for them until they went to get help and a surrogate mother was brought into the picture. She was able to hold their baby for them, and as soon as the baby was born was given to the parents. She had done that several times and had her husband and children of her own, she felt it was her gift and duty to help others in that way so she offered her uterus to help others in this way.

She did this for several parents whom wished for a child and she never regrets it nor did her hubby. She said it was worth it to see these families happy with their children.

I am sorry I really don’t see anything wrong with that, but if it’s wrong I am sorry for giving my opinion…

 

[TAS2000]

Well originally i was thinkgin of the case where the fathers sperm is used to fertilize some other woman. However, in the case you mentioned you still have the problem of how did the mother and father get a fertilized egg to transplant…typically by fertilization in a lab, not in her body. Then you also have the issue of who the mother really is. Human being will have feelings, and there could be legal battels about the surrogate decing not to give the bbay to the parent, suing for visitation rights, jealously of the mother with the surogate, etc etc etc.

IVF also has other ethical problems in that most often more than one fertilized egg is created and implanted to “increase the odds” of success, and sometimes the extras are discarded or even aborted to give the remianing ones the best shot at making it to term. Those lives are hardly being treated as sacred.

 

[iluvmybabies]

iluvmybabies - please see my post just above… it talks about surrogacy also…

Thank you for the information… I just feel so discouraged because I mean if you think about it, adoption is a great gift as well, but for a woman to never know and a husband to never know that gift of being parents biological parents it’s painful you know?

One lady that used to work with my mom was infertile and after 20 years of trying her husband left her. They spent a lot of money on marriage counselors, their priest to guide them throug this, a lot of pain and he just left her…He had many children with another woman several years later but she was left all alone and abandoned. She was heart broken, started drinking and tried to kill herself many times. He begged her for forgiveness and still loves her but he couldn’t live with a woman that he would never have children with and this that they were hs sweethearts and all…They were bffs and something like this happened and that was the end of that…

I felt horrible for her and I know that if they would have gone through a surrogate mother they would have been happy with at least one child and be still together…

I mean I am sorry I feel this way but I just had to share what I feel… Sorry if it bothers anyone or if it offends anyone…Very sorry! Not my intention…

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

**iluvmybabies…

I understand you have a lot of questions. You have been fed misinformation for most of your life. But there comes a time when you have to do more than ask questions. You have to do the research behind your questions in order to fully understand. If, for example, you have a lot of questions on sexuality and reproduction (like it seems you do from all of your posts) you need to start looking up the answers from sources that are both official and easy to understand. Just asking questions here is only the beginning, not the end.

Do you own a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Ever read “Catholicism for Dummies”? Anything by Christopher West (good news about sex and marriage is a good place to start)?

You mentioned that you try to talk to your priest but he is too busy. Well, first off don’t expect him to have time for long, in depth questions during Confession. Confession is for Confession. Do some of your own research, figure out what you don’t understand or would like to have questions answered about, and then make an appointment.

You will never be satisfied with the broad answers to the even broader questions you pose here because you don’t spend enough time on any one subject to gain any sort of insight or understanding. Slow down and focus. What do you want to know? How can you find those answers? Where can you turn for further explanation?

CAF was an absolutely awesome resource for me during my conversion…but it was by no means the only one. And, no matter how convincing the posters were who answered my many questions, they were only people just like me. I needed to back up that info with sources…and so should you.

Your thinking process behind surrogate motherhood for example shows that you have much to learn about sex within a marriage and it’s unitive and reproductive purposes.**

 

[iluvmybabies]

Well originally i was thinkgin of the case where the fathers sperm is used to fertilize some other woman. However, in the case you mentioned you still have the problem of how did the mother and father get a fertilized egg to transplant…typically by fertilization in a lab, not in her body. Then you also have the issue of who the mother really is. Human being will have feelings, and there could be legal battels about the surrogate decing not to give the bbay to the parent, suing for visitation rights, jealously of the mother with the surogate, etc etc etc.

IVF also has other ethical problems in that most often more than one fertilized egg is created and implanted to “increase the odds” of success, and sometimes the extras are discarded or even aborted to give the remianing ones the best shot at making it to term. Those lives are hardly being treated as sacred.

I understand about how many lives are being mistreated but it’s kind of like the same with miscarriages you know? What about that when the baby (s) is unable to attach him/herself you know? And just another fertilized egg is gone??? I mean, I just don’t know it’s a painful subject just thinking about it… you know?

I have known so many that wish to have children and are not able to because of something as that you know the new life unable to latch on so…anyhow…again sorry for my blabbering…And I don’t mean to offend anyone… Sorry!

 

[TAS2000]

I understand about how many lives are being mistreated but it’s kind of like the same with miscarriages you know? What about that when the baby (s) is unable to attach him/herself you know? And just another fertilized egg is gone???

Sorry i don’t understand what you’re saying here. Are you saying that miscarriages happen naturally adn the babies die, so its ok if IVF babies die? That really doesn’t make sense.

Ideally we would HOPE that some of that lovely intellegence we were given goes to figureing out how to save babies that would other wise be lost to miscarige. Medications, or even an artifical womb, like a life support system until the baby can survive outsided the womb. But even somethign liek that can be mis-used. I could imagine women who are “too busy” with their wordly lives who would dump the kid in the artifical womb for convience or just so they dont’ get strecth marks, not for any real medical reasons.

 

[iluvmybabies]

**iluvmybabies…

I understand you have a lot of questions. You have been fed misinformation for most of your life. But there comes a time when you have to do more than ask questions. You have to do the research behind your questions in order to fully understand. If, for example, you have a lot of questions on sexuality and reproduction (like it seems you do from all of your posts) you need to start looking up the answers from sources that are both official and easy to understand. Just asking questions here is only the beginning, not the end.

Do you own a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Ever read “Catholicism for Dummies”? Anything by Christopher West (good news about sex and marriage is a good place to start)?

You mentioned that you try to talk to your priest but he is too busy. Well, first off don’t expect him to have time for long, in depth questions during Confession. Confession is for Confession. Do some of your own research, figure out what you don’t understand or would like to have questions answered about, and then make an appointment.

You will never be satisfied with the broad answers to the even broader questions you pose here because you don’t spend enough time on any one subject to gain any sort of insight or understanding. Slow down and focus. What do you want to know? How can you find those answers? Where can you turn for further explanation?

CAF was an absolutely awesome resource for me during my conversion…but it was by no means the only one. And, no matter how convincing the posters were who answered my many questions, they were only people just like me. I needed to back up that info with sources…and so should you.

Your thinking process behind surrogate motherhood for example shows that you have much to learn about sex within a marriage and it’s unitive and reproductive purposes.**

thanks for the advice but it isn’t just that I have so many questions that I don’t do research it’s just that even with the information I find and research myself there are still different additions to them…I could come here and one person says something and then another says another and then I read on my own and it’s something else, and then I could ask the Priest and he tells me something else and it’s like OK so now where do I stand? I have been readin the Catechism, I have been reading a lot of books and more Bible passages, and more history and I have been overwhelmed…Some things even through reading I still can’t understand and sometimes I come in here and it is cleared out to me, so then I am like OK…

No I don’t need to learn more about the unitive and reproductive purposes, I understand the way GOD intended it to be but like I stated before, there are many hubbys and wives that don’t get the opportunity and don’t live very happy lives, and like I said in one case he left his wife…All I am saying is that I don’t see the big deal with helping them…Even if it’s just once…You know? I mean ok, so her egg if ever caught and his sperm will be gathered in a lab, yes that is terrible and not part of GOD’s plan for reproduction but let’s say every time they try to get pg she loses those children, how is that fair to the children and to them whereas let’s say this surrogate mother will be able to hold that child and allow them to have their child, even if it’s only one? I mean obviously there are many that don’t go this route at all ever, they live their lives adopting children and helping others, but I am just sharing my opinion not trying to insult anyone nor our beliefs…I am allowed to opinionate and to speak what I feel and this is how I feel whether right or wrong and I am sorry if it is wrong…

 

[iluvmybabies]

Sorry i don’t understand what you’re saying here. Are you saying that miscarriages happen naturally adn the babies die, so its ok if IVF babies die? That really doesn’t make sense.

What I am asking is how is that fair in either case? It’s not, and it’s a similar situation…Let’s say they don’t use more than one fertilized egg and it comes from the hubby and wife, and it is inside the surrogate mother, and doesn’t attach, well then, there’s another couple whom are trying to conceive naturally and the baby doesn’t attach… It’s similar, maybe wrong but similar and unfair for the unborn children in that sense… Let’s say that the baby attaches in the surrogate mother but not in the bioligical mother, well at least these parents might have a chance at having a child through a surrogate mother…That’s all I was stating…But like I said it’s just my opinion whether right or wrong…I am not trying to insult anyone…I was just sharing my thoughts…Sorry if I offended anyone.

Ideally we would HOPE that some of that lovely intellegence we were given goes to figureing out how to save babies that would other wise be lost to miscarige. Medications, or even an artifical womb, like a life support system until the baby can survive outsided the womb. But even somethign liek that can be mis-used. I could imagine women who are “too busy” with their wordly lives who would dump the kid in the artifical womb for convience or just so they dont’ get strecth marks, not for any real medical reasons.

Yes that would be a wonderful miracle if someone would be able to save people whom are having miscarriages…I hear you… Oh well I am sure there are many women whom are superficial but there are many that would definitely wish to have a child and would try their best to do so you know?

 

[1ke]

If you are trying to have a baby and are not conceiving, what does that mean? Has God said no to you? Can you go through infertility treatments?

We may seek medical treatment to correct a defect-- repair/open a blocked fallopian tube, treat PCOS, take medicine to correct hormone imbalances. This is no different from treating or repairing any other defect such as setting a broken arm, chemo for cancer, etc.

Treatments that do not violate or replace the marital embrace are not immoral.

It would seem that if any form of artificially stopping conception in any way is bad, that the flip side of any form of artificially causing it would be bad too.

Any thoughts?

You are correct regarding actions that violate the unitive or procreative elements of the marital embrace. So, those things which violate the Sixth Commandment include any type of insemination, in vitro fertilization, surrogacy, etc. A child must be conceived through intercourse between the husband and wife.

 

[cthulhubryan]

Jesus is the Son of God

I am also a child of God because God adopted me!

Therefore when we found that my wife and I were unable to have children I followed my Father’s example and adopted some!

 

[TAS2000]

What I am asking is how is that fair in either case?

Well firstly FAIR doesn’t enter into it. nothign is fair in life. People gets sick, people die, others are fine. There is no fair.

But to address your real issue, just because a good can come out of it doesn’t make it right, nor does a bad thing happening in one case justify another bad case. If i kill someone to take their organs to help another person live, that is wrong. I can’t justify it by saying that people get killed everyday so it isn’t any different if this person gets killed and hey, someone got a new organ because of it, so we created some joy from it and it was only one time.

Its not “maybe wrong” its definately wrong and its sad that the rest of the world has convinced themselves that if it makes someone happy then it is ok.

 

[monorail]

No I don’t need to learn more about the unitive and reproductive purposes, I understand the way GOD intended it to be but like I stated before, there are many hubbys and wives that don’t get the opportunity and don’t live very happy lives, and like I said in one case he left his wife…All I am saying is that I don’t see the big deal with helping them…Even if it’s just once…You know?

Your posts are a bit hard to read, but what I am gathering is that you support surrogate mothering for unhappy couples? Children deserve to be brought into a loving, happy family… children are not a right, but a gift. Ditto for marriage. I am currently unmarried and childless, but if I had a right to either, I could just demand that someone give me both right now.

 

[Alix1912]

You are correct regarding actions that violate the unitive or procreative elements of the marital embrace. So, those things which violate the Sixth Commandment include any type of insemination, in vitro fertilization, surrogacy, etc. A child must be conceived through intercourse between the husband and wife.

So where does that leave people who are the product of invitro? Are they an abomonation since they were created sinfully. Are they not supposed to be here, are they not part of God’s plan?
Because that certainly is where this thread is leading.

I figured that this was going to be how this thread would go, and my theroy was right. It’s the odd interpretation of the rules Catholics place on themselves, that apply sometimes but not others that make me glad I’m not Catholic.

That and, in relation to this specific thread, the fact that my sister is a product of Invitro, and is by far and away the BEST thing that ever happened to my family. We will always considered her a gift from God, not a subversion of his will.