Openess to Life Question

[Truly_Beloved]

So where does that leave people who are the product of invitro? Are they an abomonation since they were created sinfully.

No way!

Every person is actively created by God, regardless of how they were conceived. Children conceived during rape weren’t co-created under ideal circumstances, either, nor children co-created during pre- or extra- marital relations. That doesn’t mean that God doesn’t want them here – If He didn’t, He wouldn’t have created them.

Sometimes, God creates life even when circumstances aren’t ideal. We don’t know why He does this, but we (as Catholics) do know that He has a preferred way for us to go about trying to co-create life with Him.

I hope all of that came out right.

 

[1ke]

So where does that leave people who are the product of invitro? Are they an abomonation since they were created sinfully. Are they not supposed to be here, are they not part of God’s plan? Because that certainly is where this thread is leading.

God’s pefect will is that we all live in conformity to God’s Law. His permissive will allows us to make our own choices, all of which have consequences. As Scripture tells us, God works for the good in every situation. Therefore, he can bring good out of people’s wrong choices.

A child conceived through in vitro is no different than a child conceived out of wedlock, through an adulterous relationship, or a child conceived through rape. The sin of the **parents **has no bearing on the child, who once concieved is loved by God and has all the dignity of any other human person.

I figured that this was going to be how this thread would go, and my theroy was right. It’s the odd interpretation of the rules Catholics place on themselves, that apply sometimes but not others that make me glad I’m not Catholic.

Catholic teaching on sexual morality is completely consistent and it is God’s Law therefore it is perfect.

That and, in relation to this specific thread, the fact that my sister is a product of Invitro, and is by far and away the BEST thing that ever happened to my family. We will always considered her a gift from God, not a subversion of his will.

As has already been stated, God loves every person no matter how they come to be.

The parents are responsible for their actions and will be judged based on their knowledge and free will in the matter.

We all are accountable to God for our actions.

How you view the situation is based purely on emotion, and you are therefore not able to be objective.

 

[1ke]

If He didn’t, He wouldn’t have created them.

This, I think, overstates God’s will in these situations. God allows the natural process of conception in those cases when people make wrong choices. The parents “create” the child. God gives the child his soul. God does not will us to immoral acts. We may never do evil so that good may come from it. Therefore, God does not positively will any person to be conceived through immoral means. It is against his perfect nature to do so.

His permissive will allows the natural consequences to result and he brings good from those consequences.

 

[iluvmybabies]

So where does that leave people who are the product of invitro? Are they an abomonation since they were created sinfully. Are they not supposed to be here, are they not part of God’s plan?
Because that certainly is where this thread is leading.

I figured that this was going to be how this thread would go, and my theroy was right. It’s the odd interpretation of the rules Catholics place on themselves, that apply sometimes but not others that make me glad I’m not Catholic.

That and, in relation to this specific thread, the fact that my sister is a product of Invitro, and is by far and away the BEST thing that ever happened to my family. We will always considered her a gift from God, not a subversion of his will.

I have a question, not to be so personal or even bother but did bringing your sister into the world make your family very happy?
And do you think your family should be considered as many have posted here, “not right” for using such a way of bringing your sister into this world?

I don’t think so…I think any child no matter how brought in should be always a blessing…but then again that’s just my opinion…
Sorry if I offend anyone!

 

[shannyk]

So where does that leave people who are the product of invitro? Are they an abomonation since they were created sinfully. Are they not supposed to be here, are they not part of God’s plan?
Because that certainly is where this thread is leading.

No, it’s not what the CHurch says, nor is it where the thread was leading.

Something to read…

The coming into being of a new human being is always in itself a gift and a blessing: “Lo, sons are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward” (Psalm 126: 3). Each person from the first moment of his life is the tangible sign of God’s faithful love for humanity; he is the living icon of the “Yes” of the Creator to the history of men, a history of salvation that will be completed in full communion with God in the joy of eternal life.

Each human being, in fact, from his conception is a unity of body and soul, and possesses in himself the vital principle that will lead him to develop his potentialities, which are not only of a biological character but are also anthropological.

For this reason, the dignity (which is the dignity of the human person) of a child, of every child, independently of the practical circumstances in which his life begins, remains an intangible and immutable good which requires recognition and defence, both by individuals and by society as a whole.

Among all the fundamental rights that every human being possesses from the moment of conception, the right to life is certainly the primary right because it is the pre-condition for the existence of all other such rights. On the basis of this right, every human being, especially if weak or not self-sufficient, must receive adequate social defence against every form of offence or substantial violation of his or her physical and mental integrity.

It is precisely this inalienable dignity of the person, which belongs to every human being from the first moment of his existence, which requires that his origins should be the direct consequence of suitable personal human action; only the reciprocal gift of the married love of a man and a woman, expressed and realized in the conjugal act with respect for the inseparable unity of its unitive and procreative meanings, is a worthy context for the coming forth of a new human life.

This truth, which has always been taught by the Church, is fully met in the heart of every person, as the recent words of John Paul II well emphasize: “What emerges ever more clearly in the procreation of a new creature is its indispensable bond with spousal union, by which the husband becomes a father through the conjugal union with his wife, and the wife becomes a mother through the conjugal union with her husband. The Creator’s plan is engraved in the physical and spiritual nature of the man and of the woman, and as such has universal value” (Address to the Participants in the Plenary Assembly of the Pontifical Academy for Life, 21 February 2004, n. 2).

We thus state again our firm conviction that artificial reproductive techniques, far from being a real treatment for the sterility of a couple, in reality constitute an unworthy method for the coming forth of a new life, whose beginning thus depends in large measure on the technical action of third parties outside the couple and takes place in a context totally separated from conjugal love. In employing ART, indeed, the spouses do not in any way take part in the conception of their child through the reciprocal corporeal and spiritual self-giving of their persons by means of the conjugal act.

[From FINAL COMMUNIQUE ON
“THE DIGNITY OF HUMAN PROCREATION
AND REPRODUCTIVE TECHNOLOGIES.
ANTHROPOLOGICAL AND ETHICAL ASPECTS”

February 2004](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...ife_doc_20040316_x-gen-assembly-final_en.html)

If you search the Vatican website you will find more documents regarding this subject.

 

[iluvmybabies]

I understand that life must be done the way GOD intended, and that our choices for choosing different ways of having children such as invitro or surrogate are seen as sins and our children will have no faults but we will be the ones to be judged by GOD by our actions…

Hopefully God will have mercy on us…

Thank you everyone for the great information…I have learned a lot!

 

[Truly_Beloved]

God does not will us to immoral acts. We may never do evil so that good may come from it. Therefore, God does not positively will any person to be conceived through immoral means. It is against his perfect nature to do so.

I understand that God doesn’t will us to immoral acts. In this conversation, God doesn’t will a couple to create life using IVF. It has always been my understanding, though, that God is not “permissive” in creating life… He very deliberately creates life. So if He chooses to give an IVF child life (sometimes IVF works, and sometimes it doesn’t), it isn’t because He wanted the parents to do IVF, but rather, that He wanted to create life despite a person’s immoral way of going about it.

Do I have a fundamental misunderstanding, 1ke? You are much more knowledgeable than I am, and I want to make sure that I have this straightened out.

 

[Alix1912]

I have a question, not to be so personal or even bother but did bringing your sister into the world make your family very happy?
And do you think your family should be considered as many have posted here, “not right” for using such a way of bringing your sister into this world?

I don’t think so…I think any child no matter how brought in should be always a blessing…but then again that’s just my opinion…
Sorry if I offend anyone!

I don’t think my family was wrong to bring my sister into the world the way she was. Though according to many here everything we did was wrong. IVF, donated sperm (Step-dad had no sperm count), my mom donated her extra eggs to a woman who had none. Result of all this horrible stuff…two families got children they never would have gotten without it. I can’t speak for the other family (we do not know who they are on purpose), but my sister is amazing, so I can only imagine their kid is amazing too.

My family would be a poorer, less happy, and less bright place without her. She several years younger than me, but over the years I have learned so much from her. She is a brilliant 18 year old who is studying to be a doctor.

In my eyes my mom made the right decision.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

I don’t think my family was wrong to bring my sister into the world the way she was. Though according to many here everything we did was wrong. IVF, donated sperm (Step-dad had no sperm count), my mom donated her extra eggs to a woman who had none. Result of all this horrible stuff…two families got children they never would have gotten without it. I can’t speak for the other family (we do not know who they are on purpose), but my sister is amazing, so I can only imagine their kid is amazing too.

My family would be a poorer, less happy, and less bright place without her. She several years younger than me, but over the years I have learned so much from her. She is a brilliant 18 year old who is studying to be a doctor.

In my eyes my mom made the right decision.

**No one is questioning your sister’s value or worth as a person. She is entitled to as much dignity as every other human being born on the planet.

But, like mentioned before, you can’t seem to separate the emotional from the objective.

If your sister was the product of rape…would you be saying that you are so glad your mom was raped and she made the right decision to go to “whatever place under whatever circumstances” the rape happened??? Would you be telling people that rape isn’t so bad because without it your family would be a less happy entity???

Not logical, is it?

More than likely you would be saying that, DESPITE the evil means in which she was conceived, she is a wonderful blessing to your family. And, if you believe in God, you would be praising His goodness in bringing such a light into your family’s life after something so dark.

You do not have to dump the baby out with the bath water. Acknowledging that there are immoral ways to achieve a pregnancy in no way devalues the baby who was a product of those means.
**

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

thanks for the advice but it isn’t just that I have so many questions that I don’t do research it’s just that even with the information I find and research myself there are still different additions to them…I could come here and one person says something and then another says another and then I read on my own and it’s something else, and then I could ask the Priest and he tells me something else and it’s like OK so now where do I stand?

If you believe in the Authority of the Church, you start and end there. Everything else is just food for thought.

No I don’t need to learn more about the unitive and reproductive purposes, I understand the way GOD intended it to be but like I stated before, there are many hubbys and wives that don’t get the opportunityI am allowed to opinionate and to speak what I feel and this is how I feel whether right or wrong and I am sorry if it is wrong…

**If you understand that God wants something to be a certain way, how do you justify go against His will anyway?

What else could be justified then? Not just by you, but by anyone? Same sex marriage, cohabitation, sex with random partners, stealing, lying, cheating… pretty much anything can be justified if you do not have a moral compass to lead you.

God has provided is with all of the answers. The devil tries to confuse us. He takes what is simple and twists and distorts it until we aren’t sure what is right or wrong.

How can surrogate motherhood be bad? Everyone is so happy! Well, earthly happiness is not our goal. Achieving heaven is. We cannot do that if we are focused on being “happy” and decide to disobey God’s will whenever we feel like to it to achieve OUR will.
**

 

[1ke]

I have a question, not to be so personal or even bother but did bringing your sister into the world make your family very happy?
And do you think your family should be considered as many have posted here, “not right” for using such a way of bringing your sister into this world?

All the polygamists in West Texas are “very happy”. Polygamy makes them “very happy.” Yet we consider polygamy to be wrong.

The measure of rightness or wrongness is not whether or not it makes us happy. God’s Law is objective, not subjective. It is not based on a feeling of “happiness.”

Fornicating makes lots of people “happy”, as does prostitution, pornography, contracpetion, cohabitation without marriage, and numerous others sins. They do not please God, however.

I don’t think so…I think any child no matter how brought in should be always a blessing…but then again that’s just my opinion…
Sorry if I offend anyone!

The child may indeed be a blessing to people, as has been stated a child once conceived bears no part of their parents guilt.

That in no way makes the action of the parents right nor does it excuse their actions.

 

[1ke]

I understand that God doesn’t will us to immoral acts. In this conversation, God doesn’t will a couple to create life using IVF. It has always been my understanding, though, that God is not “permissive” in creating life… He very deliberately creates life. So if He chooses to give an IVF child life (sometimes IVF works, and sometimes it doesn’t), it isn’t because He wanted the parents to do IVF, but rather, that He wanted to create life despite a person’s immoral way of going about it.

Do I have a fundamental misunderstanding, 1ke? You are much more knowledgeable than I am, and I want to make sure that I have this straightened out.

I do not share this understanding of God’s permissive will. I do not believe he only “deliberately” creates life in the way you are stating.

That is a topic for theologians, and I am afraid beyond what I know. Would require research.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I don’t think my family was wrong to bring my sister into the world the way she was. …

You obviously love your sister.

This is the sister that you know. You have other siblings that you do not know. Beyond those who successfuly gestated in another woman’s womb, several were likely discarded during the process of these fertility treatments. When she was just a mere embryo, the sister that you know and love survived a process that few embryos survive.

---

This thread did not go the way I expected it to go. I’d like to respond to one of your questions from your first post.

If you are trying to have a baby and are not conceiving, what does that mean? Has God said no to you?

Maybe He has said, “Not yet.” The Bible contains several stories of woman such as Sarah, Hannah and Elizabeth who were thought to be infertile and past their child bearing years who had a child.

Or maybe God has said, “No–I have something else special planned for you.” I do not doubt that those who suffer from infertility carry a heavy cross, but as Catholic Christian we believe the Cross brings salvation.

I have not always been “open to life”. Some friends of ours struggled with infertility and despite spending thousands of dollars on several fertility treatments, they never were able to carry a baby full term. (they eventually adopted.) Knowing how much those infertile friends our wanted a child helped me realize what a gift God was giving me when I became pregnant somewhat unplanned.

We live in a world where healthy fertile couples intentionally make themselves infertile through sterilization and contraception. I know from my own experience that infertile couples can remind us how precious our fertility is. Their suffering is not wasted.

 

[Alix1912]

You obviously love your sister.

This is the sister that you know. You have other siblings that you do not know. Beyond those who successfuly gestated in another woman’s womb, several were likely discarded during the process of these fertility treatments. When she was just a mere embryo, the sister that you know and love survived a process that few embryos survive. .

Actually, you are wrong there, that was the entire reason my mom donated her extra eggs so that no embryo would be created and discarded. Three embryos were created, my sister, another child, and the baby my mom miscarried. Nothing was discarded.

And several have said this is an emotional topic, it is. I feel that neither my mother nor the other couple involved, or anyone else who uses IVF to have a baby are sinning.

I watched my mom go through that heartache of not being able to concieve. Nothing would have helped her short of medical intervention.

Facts are my sister could never have come into this world any otherway. So hypothetically if we could go back in time and do it over again, Catholic teaching presents the options of no sister or no sin.

 

[wanner47]

Actually, you are wrong there, that was the entire reason my mom donated her extra eggs so that no embryo would be created and discarded. Three embryos were created, my sister, another child, and the baby my mom miscarried. Nothing was discarded.

And several have said this is an emotional topic, it is. I feel that neither my mother nor the other couple involved, or anyone else who uses IVF to have a baby are sinning.

And I feel that it is a sin. So who is right?

I watched my mom go through that heartache of not being able to concieve. Nothing would have helped her short of medical intervention.

**Facts are my sister could never have come into this world any otherway. ** So hypothetically if we could go back in time and do it over again, Catholic teaching presents the options of no sister or no sin.

Actually, that’s not a fact. With God, all things are possible.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Actually, you are wrong there, that was the entire reason my mom donated her extra eggs so that no embryo would be created and discarded. Three embryos were created, my sister, another child, and the baby my mom miscarried. Nothing was discarded.

And several have said this is an emotional topic, it is. I feel that neither my mother nor the other couple involved, or anyone else who uses IVF to have a baby are sinning. …

I wrote “likely”. I’m glad that your siblings weren’t discarded. Here’s some statistics from a quick google search that turned up the rate of success from a clinic that does IVF (I didn’t post a link to the website because I don’t want to promote the procedure.) Even if you think your mother handled the situation in a manner morally acceptable to you, many couples end up with “extra” cryopreserved embryos that get thrown away or that courts sometimes have to decide what to do with.

IVF
The mean female’s age was 34 years (range 28-43 years), the average number of mature eggs retrieved was 11, and 45% of cycles provided embryos for cryopreservation.
The clinical pregnancy rate per transfer was 43.2%.
The mean number of embryos transferred was 2.08.
Not surprisingly, the pregnancy rates were directly influenced by patient’s age: <30 years: 50%; 30 – 34 years: 48%; 35 – 37 years: 45%; 38 – 40 years: 35%; and >40 years: 14%.
Donor eggs
The average donor’s age was 28 years, and the donor egg recipients ranged from 34 to 49 years.
The clinical pregnancy rate per transfer was 60%.
The mean number of embryos transferred was 1.9.

If your mom only had three eggs retrieved and all three eggs resulted in live birth, that is rare for fertility treatments. It is also possible that a woman may not know exactly how many eggs were retrieved or how many embryos were really created and where they went once she opens Pandora’s box.

I watched my mom go through that heartache of not being able to concieve. Nothing would have helped her short of medical intervention.

Facts are my sister could never have come into this world any otherway. So hypothetically if we could go back in time and do it over again, Catholic teaching presents the options of no sister or no sin.

Did she concieve you? Could not her heart have rejoiced in having had you? I recently miscarried a child, so I am not immune to understanding how difficult it can be when God says “no” or “not now”, but I also embrace the beautiful children that God has given me a little tighter and with greater appreciation. Might God have provided you a beautiful sister through adoption or another way?

As I wrote, I know people who have undergone these types of treatments. In addition to the couple I mentioned earlier who had IVF several times but who eventually adopted because IVF failed, I also know another couple who created several embryos while going through IVF but who conceived naturally before they had a chance to implant them. When their naturally conceived child was about two, the decided to implant their frozen offspring, but she miscarried them all. We can probably go back and forth with you discussing the people we know who have successfully or unsuccesfully had IVF. It is difficult to discuss these matters based on logic when emotion is involved. I’m trying to speak logically and not emotionally. When we separate baby-making from love-making, we invite problems as the scientific community or judges decide such matters as who gets a chance at implantation and who gets discarded. Doctors and judges are not God.

---

Rhetorical question on the side: Where do all those zero population control people who get on the Catholic Church for our stand against contraception go when we have discussions about IVF?

 

[shannyk]

I figured that this was going to be how this thread would go, and my theory was right

. It’s the odd interpretation of the rules Catholics place on themselves, that apply sometimes but not others that make me glad I’m not Catholic.

Gosh, now I’m confused Did you really want to know the answer or was this an attempt to prove yourself correct about Catholics and ‘our rules’?

I’m not sure what rules you are saying apply sometimes and not others? Of anything, the ‘rules’ as you put it, are painfully consistent. Maybe there is something you’re misunderstanding? I’d be happy to help clarify if I can.

Human beings are blessing, a gift from God, made in his image and likeness, regardless of under what circumstances they are conceived, period. End of story. Yet, the end doesn’t justify the means. Of course something good, your sister, came out of something evil, that is by the power and the Grace and great Mercy of God and has nothing to do with what your mother did being morally right.

The process, the mechanics if you will, of creating a human being belong to GOD, not to us. So, it stands to reason that since he has said we are good and he has designed the means by which we come into existence, that would be unchanged even when done in a way that is blatantly against His will and His plan for human procreation. He’s not going to LET US take what he has created and make it into something bad. So, of course your sister, and every person conceived through IVF, shares the human dignity that is inherent in all human beings, by design.

The example Malia use about someone being conceived in rape is a good one ( and one I can appreciate being a product of rape myself). Obviously to rape someone is gravely immoral. Obviously my existence is good. Does it stand to reason then that because my life is good that what my ‘father’ did was good, or even not wrong? I think the answer is obvious.

 

[apricot_yogurt]

but my sister is amazing, so I can only imagine their kid is amazing too.My daughter is amazing tooMy family would be a poorer, less happy, and less bright place without her.*Ditto *She several years younger than me, but over the years I have learned so much from her. She is a brilliant 18 year old who is studying to be a doctor.

My daughter is a phenomenal human being. We can’t imagine life without her. She was conceived when we were unmarried and fornicating. I sinned. Her Dad sinned. She is no less a person because of it. If I had obeyed the Catholic church, she would never have existed. Looking at her now, I see how wrong we were-precisely because she is a wonderful human person.This proves that God can take something so sinful and make such good out of it.