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clem456
Guest
This thread illustrates perfectly why I will not recommend CAF forums to anyone going through our RCIA process or our adult eduaction programs. This sort of rigid idolatry of rubrics and rules (no I don’t advocate abuses, don’t even imply.)
We need to realize, the realities of the Mass are not affected by the sanctity of it’s ministers. Or their weaknesses or forgetfullness or “hubris”.
As in soooo many problems expressed on these forums, why do you not, OP speak to your priest? If this is bothering you so, have a discussion with the man who is leading your flock. It’s the decent thing to do. That we are unwilling to discuss so many of these problems with real people face to face, OUGHT TO TELL US SOMETHING!
We need to realize, the realities of the Mass are not affected by the sanctity of it’s ministers. Or their weaknesses or forgetfullness or “hubris”.
As in soooo many problems expressed on these forums, why do you not, OP speak to your priest? If this is bothering you so, have a discussion with the man who is leading your flock. It’s the decent thing to do. That we are unwilling to discuss so many of these problems with real people face to face, OUGHT TO TELL US SOMETHING!
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Angelsflight
Guest
To be honest…its some of these threads that have shaken my faith time and time again. Being a revert who was baptised and had first communion at the age of 10…I have yet to go through RCIA. I am not confirmed yet. And I am hesitant at times to go forward.
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johnnykins
Guest
What tells us something is that thread upon thread here at CAF and elsewhere tells of these problems - it’s not just here in the USA. It’s not just an occasional issue…it’s been endemic. Blog upon blog also deals with them. Millions upon millions have seen and heard these things. The scandal has been significant. Things have certainly gotten better in the last few years, but it continues.
How many threads at CAF alone deal with people concerned that the sacraments are invalid? That their priest feels free to change the Mass?
I’m very glad many people have not seen or experienced these issues. I’ve personally seen/heard them all. You need to google “brisbane invalid baptism” to see a disconcerting example of a priest changing the words of a sacrament to invalidate it. Perhaps you’d care to explore Cleansing Fire’s latest on liturgical dance cleansingfiredor.com/2012/09/on-lord-of-the-dance-and-liturgical-dance/
What we need to realize is that the faithful have a right to a Mass said in accordance with the texts and rubrics. We’re not talking extreme situations with unusual constraints…we’re talking about an average parish in the USA.
I certainly hope this was simply some sort of mistake…however, I feel quite certain it was anything but. Yes, that’s a terrible commentary on what I’ve seen in the last 45 years way too often. Whose fault - and I deliberately use the word “fault” - is that?
You want to point fingers, point them at priests who do and allow such things and their bishops. They are the ones in the wrong.
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Angelsflight
Guest
This thread is talking about changing ONE word. Is it really that big of a deal?
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clem456
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johnnykins
Guest
Yep …because that’s where it starts…
BTW an easy google comes up with all sorts of things for those who haven’t seen them
youtube.com/watch?v=u3YatzdonfI
bc.edu/bc_org/rvp/pubaf/chronicle/v5/O3/dance.html
votf.org/vineyard/vineyard8/events.html (Here’s a Jesuit parish - oh, if only you could recapture the delights of the 80s and 90s and the dances then!!)
Mass of Rededication and Reconsecration, Chestnut Hill, MA - …Following the gospel, Fr. Ken Loftus, our presider, opened up the homily to all members of the community inviting thoughts on the readings, the homily and/or the crisis we face as Church. … Adding to the joy and reverence of the liturgy were the Boston Liturgical Dance Ensemble. …
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triumphguy
Guest
Youtube is very interesting: You could also look up worms crawling out of scalps, parasite infections in the skin, and tapeworm removal. And then you can follow some of the links from there to the darkside of youtube!
After spending a few minutes looking at those delights you want to shave your scalp and bathe in bleach, walk on toilet tissue, and never touch another human again.
Following links to liturgical abuses leads to similarly edifying niches of youtube, and before long you begin to feel that unless you personally scourge every liturgical abuser in your own Continent then somehow you are an utter failure as a Catholic and surely bound for hell.
And if anyone wants to have another go at the Jesuits look up 20th century Jesuit martyrs (here ya go: [(name removed by moderator)ersonachristiadmajoremdeigloriam.blogspot.ca/2009/04/300-jesuit-martyrs-of-20th-century.html](http://(name removed by moderator)ersonachristiadmajoremdeigloriam.blogspot.ca/2009/04/300-jesuit-martyrs-of-20th-century.html)) , count how many there, are then go to a quite place and humbly beg God to be as faithful as 99.999999% of the Society of Jesus.
Here’s one: Bl Fr Miguel Agustín Pro
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
We would do well to consider the example set by St. Francis of Assisi:
St. Francis, who was getting toward the end of his life, couldn’t walk very well, and was blind. But a group of people from a particular parish went to complain to him about their pastor. The poor priest was living in sin with a woman and causing scandal, and they wanted St. Francis to go and straighten him out.
St. Francis made his way to the priest’s house and the people knocked on the door. The people were waiting with baited breath for St. Francis to admonish him, but, St. Francis, being full of humility, knelt before the priests, grabbed his hands, and kissed them saying, “All I know is that these hands bring me Jesus!” (Referring to the Eucharist.) As it was, the poor sinful priest converted on the spot and began living an exemplary life.
After spending a few minutes looking at those delights you want to shave your scalp and bathe in bleach, walk on toilet tissue, and never touch another human again.
Following links to liturgical abuses leads to similarly edifying niches of youtube, and before long you begin to feel that unless you personally scourge every liturgical abuser in your own Continent then somehow you are an utter failure as a Catholic and surely bound for hell.
And if anyone wants to have another go at the Jesuits look up 20th century Jesuit martyrs (here ya go: [(name removed by moderator)ersonachristiadmajoremdeigloriam.blogspot.ca/2009/04/300-jesuit-martyrs-of-20th-century.html](http://(name removed by moderator)ersonachristiadmajoremdeigloriam.blogspot.ca/2009/04/300-jesuit-martyrs-of-20th-century.html)) , count how many there, are then go to a quite place and humbly beg God to be as faithful as 99.999999% of the Society of Jesus.
Here’s one: Bl Fr Miguel Agustín Pro
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
We would do well to consider the example set by St. Francis of Assisi:
St. Francis, who was getting toward the end of his life, couldn’t walk very well, and was blind. But a group of people from a particular parish went to complain to him about their pastor. The poor priest was living in sin with a woman and causing scandal, and they wanted St. Francis to go and straighten him out.
St. Francis made his way to the priest’s house and the people knocked on the door. The people were waiting with baited breath for St. Francis to admonish him, but, St. Francis, being full of humility, knelt before the priests, grabbed his hands, and kissed them saying, “All I know is that these hands bring me Jesus!” (Referring to the Eucharist.) As it was, the poor sinful priest converted on the spot and began living an exemplary life.
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Wiseowl
Guest
Let it go and forgive , your anger and lack of forgiveness is only hurting yourself at this point.
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a83192
Guest
there has been so much liturgical abuse. That I am fer up.
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superamazingman
Guest
AND the use of a glass patten, which is clearly wrong. That’s not something you just forget and slip up with.
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superamazingman
Guest
Me too. If we didn’t have as many priests consciously changing the texts, the criticism would probably die down. But as it is, with so many actively trying to change the texts, when one does slip up, AND he disobeys other rubrics, he does probably get extra flack. Not defending it, but it’s a reality, especially with that glass patten. If it weren’t for the patten, I’d probably write it off as a mistake (unless he did it multiple times). But since he’s using that patten, he’s already shown he’s willing to discard the rubrics.
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Angelsflight
Guest
Well, yeah, but what if it was the fault of the sacristan, as Tim said? The priest wont admonish him on the spot. The priest really is kind of “on stage” when the mass starts. If he messes up a word, or finds something out of place on the altar, it is kind of difficult to stop the mass, where all eyes are on him, and say “oops! Sorry, i shouldnt have said that, let me start again”
People in show business never backtrack. If they mess up the words to a song, or forget their line, they must continue. Not to make mass as shallow as some silly show, not trying to do that, but I can see where if a mistake is made, the priest must forge ahead, and hope to God the people understand he is human too, and does make mistakes.
I am an emergency dispatcher, and we have scripts we have to follow to the letter. And i have to say everything perfectly, or our QA dept makes our lives miserable. After 4 years, I have it down. But every now and then, I have a brain fog and mess up a word. It happens. We are human.
Forgive the poor priest. They are doing the best they can.
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ProVobis
Guest
Is he saying this from memory? If so, maybe someone could gently suggest he read from the missal. Sometimes these things manage to work themselves in when reciting from memory, a memory lapse of sorts. (I remember a few times these things happened in Latin during the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar when I served in the 50’s.) I’d give the priest some leeway here.
If he’s reading from the missal and text isn’t read the way it’s written, that would be a more serious issue IMO.
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johnnykins
Guest
not at all…I certainly forgive errors. We are all human. I also no longer simply buy off that anything goes. The fault, as I said, is not with me, it’s with those who will not say the black and do the red…they are the one causing the issue.
Honestly, don’t think it’s hurting me. Thanks for the concern. Perhaps you need to consider how the scandal caused by such abusive priests hurts the Church? I do believe your “charity” is misplaced to the detriment of many.
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johnnykins
Guest
There are about 20000 Jesuits in the world…so .000001% is a teensy tiny partial whole number…I do believe you exaggerate. Have there been many great and glorious Jesuit martyrs…sure. Have there been pedophiles, heretics and evil doers of all sorts…also a yes, unfortunately.
Priests deserve our respect, but not our adulation, subservience or a bye every time they take it upon themselves to exceed their roles. That sort of attitude played much into the sex scandal…not to mention many fiscal and other scandals. I’m shocked you’d suggest it.
As for Father Francis, I make no pretense he was a better man than I am. What he did achieved repentance and renewal. For me, I’ll try the “tell like it is” tack, having seen the other tack fail repeatedly.
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triumphguy
Guest
I’m not sure there is any scandal here.
Catholic Encyclopedia “Scandal - A word or action evil in itself, which occasions another’s spiritual ruin”
CCC 2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.
Who is scandalized by this?
What evil are we being led to by the priest opening mass with the joy of the holy spirit.
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superamazingman
Guest
Hmmm, I don’t know. You could say that, but in most cases, the priest would probably know that a glass paten has been put out, or could at least see before Mass began. And that’s assuming he doesn’t do it every time, AND didn’t ask for it to be used, or implicitly condone it.
It really seems like everyone’s grasping for straws to defend the actions of this priest that were simply wrong.
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pnewton
Guest
I would say that if this is what passes as abuse, the OP ought to count his blessings.
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Angelsflight
Guest
I just feel like he deserves the benefit of the doubt, I guess. I never like to assume the worst in anyone.
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