Opening greeting of Mass

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There are about 20000 Jesuits in the world…so .000001% is a teensy tiny partial whole number…I do believe you exaggerate. Have there been many great and glorious Jesuit martyrs…sure. Have there been pedophiles, heretics and evil doers of all sorts…also a yes, unfortunately.

Priests deserve our respect, but not our adulation, subservience or a bye every time they take it upon themselves to exceed their roles. That sort of attitude played much into the sex scandal…not to mention many fiscal and other scandals. ** I’m shocked you’d suggest it.**

As for Father Francis, I make no pretense he was a better man than I am. What he did achieved repentance and renewal. ** For me, I’ll try the “tell like it is” tack**, having seen the other tack fail repeatedly.
Maybe you are causing scandal by grossly over-blowing this situation, which we only know by hearsay (which is inadmissible in any court)

300 out of 20,000 - that’s 1 in 60 Jesuits have been martyred.

24 Jesuits have been ACCUSED - accused not found guilty!!! -of abuse in the US of A.

I’m shocked that you are shocked by someone defending the priesthood.:confused:

If you are going to tell it like it is, then do so: make sure you really tell it like it is. Don’t rely on hear-say and decades old videos, and the dross we see on youtube.
 
If we always presume the good intention of another, we never have to wonder.
 
I’m not sure there is any scandal here.

Catholic Encyclopedia “Scandal - A word or action evil in itself, which occasions another’s spiritual ruin”

CCC 2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

Who is scandalized by this?

What evil are we being led to by the priest opening mass with the joy of the holy spirit.:confused:
You think liturgical abuse has not led to the spiritual ruin of many? The evil is taking upon himself the right to change the Mass leading to all sorts of changes. It started slow in the late 60s and picked up steam in the 70s and 80s. Nip it in the bud…that’s the way to go.

BTW note someone has already been concerned enough to start this thread…How do you think scandal happens?
 
You think liturgical abuse has not led to the spiritual ruin of many?
I do not think this has been the case as a rule. Perhaps in extreme cases, but nothing so minor as a word different in the preface or the material of the paten. I bet that has never caused anyone to go to Hell.
 
Maybe you are causing scandal by grossly over-blowing this situation, which we only know by hearsay (which is inadmissible in any court)
Actually, not so…Administrative Courts routinely admit hearsay. Also, while trial courts do not admit it for a number of good reasons, that says nothing about its trustworthiness or usefulness.
300 out of 20,000 - that’s 1 in 60 Jesuits have been martyred.
You seem to have problems with statistics since it is presently 20K, but the martyrs are for the entire 20th century…
24 Jesuits have been ACCUSED - accused not found guilty!!! -of abuse in the US of A.
Ok, sure…the guy who wrestled HS students clothed only in jock straps at Boston College…probably “not found guilty” I don’t think it went to trial. ARE YOU SERIOUS??
I’m shocked that you are shocked by someone defending the priesthood.:confused:
Defending is one thing. Putting them on an untouchable plane is quite something different…and pernicious. 'Your winnings, sir. Oh. Thank you."
If you are going to tell it like it is, then do so: make sure you really tell it like it is. Don’t rely on hear-say and decades old videos, and the dross we see on youtube.
I always do.
 
I do not think this has been the case as a rule. Perhaps in extreme cases, but nothing so minor as a word different in the preface or the material of the paten. I bet that has never caused anyone to go to Hell.
Wow - we have to disagree. I think liturgical abuse has been a large part of the mass apostasy since the 60’s. What is it, the 2nd largest “religious group” in the USA is former Catholics? Certainly cause and effect is a difficult analysis, but I happen to think liturgical abuse and loss of faith go hand in glove.

As for one word…gotta take that first step somewhere…and I submit, here it is.
 
24 Jesuits have been ACCUSED - accused not found guilty!!! -of abuse in the US of A.
One huge settlement and 2 easily found convictions (note numerous settlements, lots of death preventing criminal trials and I suspect other convictions…too much to look through):

msnbc.msn.com/id/42271040/ns/us_news-faith/t/jesuits-settle-northwest-sex-abuse-cases-million/#.UHQoVq6upgg

articles.boston.com/2012-04-15/metro/31342179_1_jesuit-leaders-chicago-province-schaeffer
“Indeed there was, as McGuire continued to molest boys - including an eighth-grader at a private Catholic school in Massachusetts - until at least 2003, six years after Schaeffer left Chicago to become the nation’s top Jesuit leader.** McGuire is now serving 25 years in a federal prison for child sex abuse…”**emphasis added
bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbylastName-T.html
James F. Talbot, SJ…convicted
 
If we always presume the good intention of another, we never have to wonder.
And for years, as a group, priests had that presumption. Pity it’s been squandered…especially for the priest who did nothing wrong, but is now tarred with the brush loaded by priests and bishops over the last several decades.

I believe the old saying is: “Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.”
 
Ok, sure…the guy who wrestled HS students clothed only in jock straps at Boston College…probably “not found guilty” I don’t think it went to trial. ARE YOU SERIOUS??
My bad…should be Boston College “HIGH SCHOOL”
 
How did “My priest said ‘the joy of the Holy Spirit’ instead of ‘the communion of the Holy Spirit’” turn into an all-priests-are-evil diatribe about child molestation?

Is that how you see our priests?

We have the testimony of one person that, on one occasion, one priest changed one word in the greeting of one Mass. There is no evidence that the change was made deliberately or defiantly. It’s been two days, and the OP has yet to say whether s/he asked the priest about it, which should be the first line of inquiry.

We also have the testimony of one person that, on that same occasion, there was a glass paten at the altar. I’ve never even seen such a thing; but it would bother me if I did, given the ban on such things during the Mass.

But I would not jump to the conclusion that the priest was actually the devil incarnate. “For it is written: Thou shalt not speak evil of the prince of thy people,” “and the prince of thy people thou shalt not curse.” (Acts 23:5; Exodus 22:28).

“He said ‘joy’ instead of ‘communion’ during the greeting! Stone him!”

Not the reaction I would expect from Jesus. Or His Church. Or the faithful.
 
Maybe you are causing scandal by grossly over-blowing this situation, which we only know by hearsay (which is inadmissible in any court)
This is exactly right. Anything that steers people away from the Church is scandal; leading people away from Christ.
People thirsting for the Church truly should not come here until their faith is solid, many of them will be driven away by the inane and unforgiving discussions we have about which way the priest faces, mistakes father made last Sunday, 'bad" music.
99% of Catholics in the pews truly could not care less about these issues. Those desiring to come to the Church also, could not care less about these issues, and they shouln’t. They should come to the Church in a spirit of trust and hope, not doubt and suspicion. Leave the enforcement of discipline to those whose job it is.
We have a difficult enough time explaining the Church’s teaching on life, marriage, divorce, blended families. Just last Sunday our RCIA discussion revolved around teen pregnancy, handicapped children, divorce, developing humility.

Father said “joy”? Talk to father, don’t use the mistakes of a priest to run the Church down.
Same goes for the infamous liturgical dance and clown Mass, don’t project those abuses on to the Church.

Essentially what’s being done is blaming the Holy Spirit for sin. The Church has the guarantee of the Holy Spirit’s guidance. That fact should not guide us into presumption, but it should give us cause to trust and hope, and not tear down.
 
BTW note someone has already been concerned enough to start this thread…How do you think scandal happens?
Scandal happens when mistakes are made, and others take them out of the proper sphere of influence and blow them out of proportion, where they become occasions for suspicion, doubt, anger, malice, fear mongering.
 
On the whole, my feeling is that one should never get het up over a minor change in the words the first time you hear it. Or even the second time. Once or twice can be an accident. If you hear it three times, go to the priest and ask. Then you will know where you are.

The glass paten seems to me to be a different matter. OK, maybe the sacristan put it out by mistake. But that leaves us with two troubling questions:
  1. Why is the sacristan not trained in the most basic of his/her duties?
  2. Why on earth does a Catholic parish even have a glass paten to put out??
Also I felt I wanted to respond to the questions below because everyone else who responded seems to have had a really remarkable amount of good fortune.
How many of us have heard the texts of the Mass manhandled repeatedly and deliberately by any number of priests?
Yep.
How many of us have heard the words of consecration changed?
Yep. Some of my most urgent research shortly after I came back to the Church was spurred by my need to figure out whether I needed to go to Mass again, because I wasn’t sure the one I had attended was valid. (It was. The requirements for a valid Mass are very simple.)
How many of us have seen all manner of deliberate silliness introduced under the claim that “we need to just be glad that we are at Mass?”
Well, not exactly. More under the claim that “we need to be relevant.” Ick.
How many of us have seen liturgical dance?
Yep. And if the dancers weren’t embarrassed, that’s OK, because I was embarrassed enough for them.
How many of us have seen a milk and honey service…that’s really special!
Nope, no idea what this is.
Now, is it possible the priest was simply tired and made a mistake? Yes, but highly unlikely in that NO SUCH phrase is now, or has ever been, licitly approved.
I’m not with you on this, though. People can make new mistakes. People’s minds can wander a little, random associations can happen. Give people the benefit of the doubt.

I have definitely experienced faithful and conscientious priests. I am very grateful that all the priests in my current parish fall into this category (as far as it’s any of my business).

I have also experienced feminist priests, who do things like remain obviously and obstinately silent, week after week, when we get to the words “men and” in the Creed. And theatrical priests, who do things like start up a clappy sing-song during the homily (possibly not forbidden, but “yuck”). And sloppy or ignorant priests, who teach both inaccurate facts and theologically incorrect principles in their homilies. (I mean, if it’s annoying enough to hear in secular places that the Church persecuted Galileo for proving that the helio-centric theory was correct, how much more annoying is it to hear it in a homily? Or worse, “probably there is nobody in Hell?”) I have experienced a liturgical director (not a priest) who said, “Nobody expects anyone to follow all of that stuff. It’s mostly just guidelines.” (“That stuff” in this case was referring to the rubrics.)

Mass becomes much less joyful in those situations.

And this is all since I returned to the Church. Before I left, I really wasn’t paying enough attention to notice any of that.

Intentional liturgical abuse is a problem. Even if the change is pretty small, if it’s intentional it indicates an attitude toward the Mass that should be discouraged right away.

Here is an analogy: There is a world of difference between someone who believes all the Church teaches (as far as they know and understand it) and a person who takes even one dogma of the Church and denies it–even privately. The difference is between someone who thinks the Church is what she says she is, and someone who doesn’t. If I decide that, e.g., the Virgin Mary had other children after Jesus, it means that I have decided that I am better than the Church–that I know more, or have a better understanding, or whatever. But more importantly than that, it means I don’t think the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. Most importantly of all, it means that I offer obedience to the Church only conditionally–which is the same as not being obedient at all. If we are only obedient when we also have decided the same way as the Church on an issue, we’re not being obedient when we follow the Church’s teachings–we’re just being lucky that the Church happens to teach what we have decided to believe anyway.

In the same way, a priest who decides to change the rubrics has a completely different attitude to the Mass than one who doesn’t (even if that one sometimes makes mistakes!). Even one intentional change makes the Mass more about the priest, and less about God. I think many priests who commit intentional liturgical abuse don’t realize what they’re doing. It is the job of seminaries and bishops to make sure they do start to realize what they’re doing–but it’s hard to keep track of, and it’s possible, of course, that even some bishops are unaware of the implications of liturgical abuse.

All of which is to say that intentional liturgical abuse needs to be stopped. It is not to say that any priest who has committed liturgical abuses should be blamed by anyone in the congregation–how do we know what is in the priest’s soul? The important thing for us lay people is that the situation is corrected. The whole question of blame is only relevant to the priest’s confessor.

–Jen
 
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