Bologna!!! You’re stuck in a box. Step outside it and the rigidity. I’ve been a musician for 28 years. No way has God ever told me that he didn’t like a certain type music that i used to communicate to Him with. As far Im concerned it shouldn’t matter what is played in a Mass. It brings unity with God, it is acceptable. I don’t care if it is thrash metal.
Exactly. I think that each person is going to have a different opinion on this. We can’t all connect to God exactly the same way. Now we all have the same faithand must live in the parameters of said faith. But who’s to say that one cannot find ways to personalize one’s faith in order to connect more fully with God using one’s interests?
Seeing as Pope Benedict did not exist before 2005, I find it hard to believe he travelled back in time to produce a document in the year 2000…
Okay. I was a bit careless with the quoting.
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. I do agree that music changes over the time. But, correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t think it’s quite the same with liturgical music. Gregorian Chant has always been the preferred type of music in the Church. We haven’t seen the approval of Medieval folk music in the Mass (here’s a good example: youtube.com/watch?v=_Rh1YiLmKwg&feature=related) Personally, I think that it is relevant to us. There is a distinction on genre. The mathematics are important for all music, yes. But the final result is different. It is true that some music doesn’t fit certain groups (Indian Church music might not fit Canadians). But when a music doesn’t evoke prayer for most groups, it shouldn’t be used either.A better understanding of jazz would be found here:
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and the additional link. I imagine there are varying opinions on this topic.
Okay. I was a bit careless with the quoting.
you’re the first person who’s ever said that! I’m actually… well… taken aback by your response (in a good way!) Actually only one minor correction: Gregorian chant is the preferred type in the Latin Rite of the Church… we must never forget that the Latin Church is not the totality of the Church…
I always shy away from using the word “folk music” in determining anything about applicability to mass. Let’s look at the characteristics of folk music:
I certainly agree that there objective criteria of what makes sacred music, and the “evokes” part is highly critical to that definition… but what a music evokes is less based on it’s genre than most people assume. In other words, while genre DOES play a roll, and what is popular plays an even greater roll (aka, most rock music is animalistic and angry today because that is what audiences will pay for), all genres can structure their music to evoke various things. It’s simply an associative science within the brain: certain melodies are associated with certain responses.
Listen to the song “awaken” from “Yes”. For me this a hard rock tune with tremendous depth and spirit. They are not necessarily Christan lyrics but they could be substituted to the instrumentation which would make the song even more spiritual. It opened my spirit to God in ways traditional liturgical music never could.(without Christian lyrics) But it may not work for you the way it did for me. Granted not all age groups would appreciate a rock Mass, but a young group might. It might help to connect to our young in ways tradition never could.Okay. I was a bit careless with the quoting.
I’m not an authority on much of this, which is the cause of the general inaccuracy. But I agree with what you say. I’m not saying that modern music is ALL profane, but there are elements in the music that makes it unfit. A refined, reverent form of rap (Perhaps a form of rhyme or poem) might be acceptable, but not the present-day rap. There is a distinction between profane music (Not profane as in bad, but profane as in not sacred) and sacred music.
Actually only one minor correction: Gregorian chant is the preferred type in the Latin Rite of the Church… we must never forget that the Latin Church is not the totality of the Church…
I always shy away from using the word “folk music” in determining anything about applicability to mass. Let’s look at the characteristics of folk music:
By these objective criteria, we can actually see that much of sacred chant is technically “folk” music.
- Oral tradition
- related to a particular culture
- Commemorate historic events
- performed over several generations
- (optional) not copyrighted
- (optional) fusion of cultures
- (optional) non-commercial
That is because, scholastically speaking, folk does not speak about particular genres of music… it is a descriptor of particular music within any genre. Folk music might be latin, or classical, or rock, or chant, etc.
Much of what is traditional catholic music (hymns or chants) is folk music. It’s just that SOME people confuse American folk music with being definitive of “folk” or that it creates a genre called folk. That’s not correct.
I certainly agree that there objective criteria of what makes sacred music, and the “evokes” part is highly critical to that definition… but what a music evokes is less based on it’s genre than most people assume. In other words, while genre DOES play a roll, and what is popular plays an even greater roll (aka, most rock music is animalistic and angry today because that is what audiences will pay for), all genres can structure their music to evoke various things. It’s simply an associative science within the brain: certain melodies are associated with certain responses.
And we can’t forget that what we’re doing is looking at popular genres today and seeing that the vast majority of those genres is not sacred music. But that doesn’t mean that nothing within a genre CAN POSSIBLY be sacred music. After all, for every sacred hymn we have in classical style, there are literally THOUSANDS of inappropriate compositions which evoke entirely the wrong thing (anger, hatred, etc). The difference is that of the classical genre, only masterpieces and effective sacred hymns have survived the test of time, while popular genres today (which are driven by money and production) have not had to undergo that litmus test yet. Two hundred years down the road from today, much of what we listen to now (angry rock, dirty rap, etc) will be utterly forgotten, while hopefully things like spiritual beat (a form of rap that is very reverent) will remain in some way.
Have you ever looked up Fr Pontifex and listened to his “spiritual beat” raps? They’re awesome, and certainly don’t evoke any of the animalistic tendencies of other rap music (even though, admittedly, none of his productions thus far are worthy of the “sacred music” stamp because of subject matter and audience). But what he DOES demonstrate is that beat music (a sub genre of rap) is actually closer in structure to chant than most traditional music enthusiasts would like to admit). You should check him out!
Very good reminder for us all.
Yeah. I didn’t mean that the type of music I was talking about is inappropriate for all occasions (eg. praise and worship at a campfire). For some, it will be better for bringing people into the faith. However, just like when evangelizing, we shouldn’t water down our orthodoxy, in evangelizing with music, we shouldn’t water down our orthopraxy. I’ve heard -though I certainly wouldn’t say it is characteristic of all cases- that in one parish, they had life-teen masses (Sorry about the misnomer, but I can’t find a way around it here). The church was loaded with youth at that time, but most fell away when they grew up. Could it be that if we place that type of music in the context of the Mass, people will connotate the Mass to only entertainment? If so, there is much better entertainment out there, and they might as well go to those instead. My main premise is that the church disapproves of certain types of music, and we must listen to Her because of Her authority and because there must be a point behind it.
Yes, I wondered why this is being announced/advertised as a “Jazz Mass,” and it seemed questionable to me. I tend to think that Mass is Mass, as** jmjconder pointed out. while it may feature something within it, it is simply and beautifully, The Mass.