Opinions needed

[fix]

4 marks:

You are right. The Kingdom is now. The here and now are all we have to work with. We don’t have the past and we have not realized the future. The prophet Isaiah (and whomever Second Isaiah was) is dead. Jesus of Nazareth is dead. Paul of Tarsus is dead. They are no longer here. The Church that has been established is still here and now. You and I are still here and now. We must make it happen. We must usher in the Kingdom on “earth as it is in heaven.” How? By becoming active agents for political, economic, social, and liturgical/ecclesiological change. In Jesus name. Amen!

Do you want “change” for change sake? The changes I want to see are an end to the watering down of the faith. I want to see changes that lead to a greater obedience to Christ’s Church. With more obedience to the moral law we will see greater charity.

 

[debbie_m]

4 marks:

Jesus of Nazareth is dead.

Correction: Jesus is not dead, He rose from the dead.

This seems to correspond with your leaving out the divine and the supernatural - you rely on humanistic values. It is the Holy Spirit who guides us through His Church, the Catholic Church. Go to the Church’s teaching on homosexuality and then you will be following Christ, who is alive in Heaven. Amen!

God bless,
Debbie

 

[felra]

4 marks:

You are right. The Kingdom is now. The here and now are all we have to work with. We don’t have the past and we have not realized the future. The prophet Isaiah (and whomever Second Isaiah was) is dead. Jesus of Nazareth is dead. Paul of Tarsus is dead. They are no longer here. The Church that has been established is still here and now. You and I are still here and now. We must make it happen. We must usher in the Kingdom on “earth as it is in heaven.” How? By becoming active agents for political, economic, social, and liturgical/ecclesiological change. In Jesus name. Amen!

Your above post belies the depravity of a humanistic understanding and application of the Gospel. In case you haven’t heard, Jesus is very much alive, He is very present with us, and fully present body, soul and divinity in the holy Eucharist; for more, read the Matthew 28 narrative below:

5 Then the angel said to the women in reply, “Do not be afraid! I know that you are seeking Jesus the crucified. 6 He is not here, for he has been raised just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples, ‘He has been raised from the dead, and he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him.’ Behold, I have told you.” 8 Then they went away quickly from the tomb, fearful yet overjoyed, and ran to announce this to his disciples. 9 And behold, Jesus met them on their way and greeted them…18Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.……… 20And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

 

[Island_Oak]

oh my goodness…hasn’t this thread died yet???

 

[Charlemagne]

Did Peter fail to point out someone’s sins three times before the cock crowed? No. He literally denied that he knew who Jesus was. There is a third way between accepting sin and refusing contact with someone you judge to be a worse sinner than yourself. Here is another saying of Jesus:

“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven… Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own? How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me remove that splinter in your eye,” when you do not even notice the wooden beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! Remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter in your brother’s eye." Luke 6:36-37, 41-42

Those who have had a wooden beam removed from their own eye speak as if they know it. They act as if they know it, for they are grateful for the great gift of sight, knowing still that they see imperfectly, and greatly compassionate to anyone who suffers from the loss they themselves have suffered. They would never think it okay to just leave the wood in there.

Peter denied Christ Himself. That’s what we do when we sin.

 

[elts1956]

Great post. It is always good to read there are serious Catholics out there witnessing to the truth as opposed to so many faux Catholics who take their cues from secular culture rather than the Church. Why would anyone want to attend a party hosted by folks whose entire lives are lived in opposition to the faith? Authentic charity is not being lukewarm or pretending to go along to get along. Standing for Christ means accepting the cross.

Only in very recent times would one assume a “gay couple” hosting a party was a reasonable event to attend. God help us.

Life is full of contradictions which are many times difficult to resolve. If I found myself in such a situation as the OP, and even now, just reading about it, I find my lip beginning to curl in disgust. Then I read a few lines from Matthew’s Gospel and I begin to wonder, would Christ have the same reaction as I am having?

Matthew Chapter 6
“When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, ‘Why does your master eat with tax collectors and sinners?’ 12 When he heard this he replied, 'It is not the healthy who need the doctor, but the sick. 13 Go and learn the meaning of the words: Mercy is what pleases me, not sacrifice. And indeed I came to call not the upright, but sinners”.

 

[fix]

Life is full of contradictions which are many times difficult to resolve. If I found myself in such a situation as the OP, and even now, just reading about it, I find my lip beginning to curl in disgust. Then I read a few lines from Matthew’s Gospel and I begin to wonder, would Christ have the same reaction as I am having?

Matthew Chapter 6
“When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, ‘Why does your master eat with tax collectors and sinners?’ 12 When he heard this he replied, 'It is not the healthy who need the doctor, but the sick. 13 Go and learn the meaning of the words: Mercy is what pleases me, not sacrifice. And indeed I came to call not the upright, but sinners”.

This is an old thread but I would gently suggest Christ ate with sinners to bring them to conversion.

 

[elts1956]

This is an old thread but I would gently suggest Christ ate with sinners to bring them to conversion.

True, and how do we suppose that Christ did this converting, by yelling and stomping His feet? I doubt it. I think it was through example and what He was able to say because he was a true friend. Not that I think a gay couple can change their behavior over night, if ever, but then miracles do happen.

 

[fix]

True, and how do we suppose that Christ did this converting, by yelling and stomping His feet?

But, is this not a bit of a straw man? No one says one should yell and stomp any feet.

I doubt it. I think it was through example and what He was able to say because he was a true friend. Not that I think a gay couple can change their behavior over night, if ever, but then miracles do happen.

Being a true friend means many things. Prudence is required. My objection is the use of the phrase “Jesus ate with sinners” as some type of blanket that says anything goes.

 

[elts1956]

But, is this not a bit of a straw man? No one says one should yell and stomp any feet.

Being a true friend means many things. Prudence is required. My objection is the use of the phrase “Jesus ate with sinners” as some type of blanket that says anything goes.

Well, I don’t know the definite answer, so I guess you will have to ask Matthew, because it says he said in Chapter 6
“When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, ‘Why does your master eat with tax collectors and sinners?’ 12 When he heard this he replied, 'It is not the healthy who need the doctor, but the sick. 13 Go and learn the meaning of the words: Mercy is what pleases me, not sacrifice. And indeed I came to call not the upright, but sinners”.

Have no idea how many sinners this means.

 

[elts1956]

But, is this not a bit of a straw man? No one says one should yell and stomp any feet.

Being a true friend means many things. Prudence is required. My objection is the use of the phrase “Jesus ate with sinners” as some type of blanket that says anything goes.

Well, I don’t know the definite answer, so I guess you will have to ask Matthew, because it says he said in Chapter 6
“When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, ‘Why does your master eat with tax collectors and sinners?’ 12 When he heard this he replied, 'It is not the healthy who need the doctor, but the sick. 13 Go and learn the meaning of the words: Mercy is what pleases me, not sacrifice. And indeed I came to call not the upright, but sinners”.

Have no idea how many sinners this means, or if Jesus qualified who and what kind of sinner He ate with. .

 

[lovesMary]

My wife has a friend who is homosexual. We have both known this individual for 30+ years, although my wife was much closer to him than I throughout the years. We attended a party at his house several years ago on behalf of my wife’s cousin who had been fighting cancer for about seven years at that point. I had no problem going to this party on behalf of her cousin. My wife’s cousin died this year and we all attended the wake and social gathering afterwards.
We have recently been invited to a Christmas party to this mans house that he now shares with another man. Part of my feeling is that going to the party is saying that we not only accept but condone his homosexual lifestyle. There are other friends of ours that will be at the party that I would like to see. I have no problem with homosexuals in general (love the man, hate the sin philosophy) but I would like some (name removed by moderator)ut from others on this situation. Thanks in advance.

I’ve attended parties at the homes of many people whose lifestyles I disapprove of. I don’t think you need to be so strict as to shun people.

 

[fix]

Well, I don’t know the definite answer, so I guess you will have to ask Matthew, because it says he said in Chapter 6
“When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, ‘Why does your master eat with tax collectors and sinners?’ 12 When he heard this he replied, 'It is not the healthy who need the doctor, but the sick. 13 Go and learn the meaning of the words: Mercy is what pleases me, not sacrifice. And indeed I came to call not the upright, but sinners”.

Have no idea how many sinners this means.

Yes, so if you want to attend such an event with the notion you are going to help bring others to the truth then the quote applies.

If attending brings scandal then we should look to the passage about leading others astray.

 

[elts1956]

Yes, so if you want to attend such an event with the notion you are going to help bring others to the truth then the quote applies.

If attending brings scandal then we should look to the passage about leading others astray.

Life does get confusing doesn’t it?

 

[fix]

Life does get confusing doesn’t it?

Well, I would not necessarily say choose the word confusing. I may choose the word radical. As it is a radical notion to follow Christ and totally unite our will with His.

That often means doing the opposite of what our weak wills want to do.

51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

A hard saying?

 

[elts1956]

Well, I would not necessarily say choose the word confusing. I may choose the word radical. As it is a radical notion to follow Christ and totally unite our will with His.

That often means doing the opposite of what our weak wills want to do.

A hard saying?

I think this was the way of the world even before Christ. His teachings amplified this because they were radical.

 

[GraceDK]

I’d say, go to that party.
Are you free from sin your self? is there no trace of sins of ignorance or sins unrepented, even known ones, in your family?
Some might have something on you too… maybe one day you will be a sinner if you are not already… and then … will you wish to be treated like a leper or will you wish that people will leave the jugement to God?
Many of us in this forum would have been long excommunicated if we had lived in that good gloriuos past which everyone talks about but no one has seen.

I’d say… these men know already that Christians dont approve of homosexual acts.
But think about this: there was a man here not long ago who said: “I am leaving the Catholic Church with tears… I have decided with my wife to use abc… we cant stand to use nfp anymore… we just wanna be free”
You might say this man and his wife were imperfect… but should all their friends now stay away from them?? are they lepers beyong the reach of love…?

Have you all tried to imagine what its like to be homosexual? I have… and I had to humbly confess that I am not sure if I could stand the test if I was tested.
But this I know. We are not called to seclude or punish each other… we are called to love…

 

[elts1956]

I’d say, go to that party.
Are you free from sin your self? is there no trace of sins of ignorance or sins unrepented, even known ones, in your family?
Some might have something on you too… maybe one day you will be a sinner if you are not already… and then … will you wish to be treated like a leper or will you wish that people will leave the jugement to God?
Many of us in this forum would have been long excommunicated if we had lived in that good gloriuos past which everyone talks about but no one has seen.

I’d say… these men know already that Christians dont approve of homosexual acts.
But think about this: there was a man here not long ago who said: “I am leaving the Catholic Church with tears… I have decided with my wife to use abc… we cant stand to use nfp anymore… we just wanna be free”
You might say this man and his wife were imperfect… but should all their friends now stay away from them?? are they lepers beyong the reach of love…?

Have you all tried to imagine what its like to be homosexual? I have… and I had to humbly confess that I am not sure if I could stand the test if I was tested.
But this I know. We are not called to seclude or punish each other… we are called to love…

I will never understand what makes a person homosexual. I am sure there have been studies done, but nothing proven? This is going to sound strange, but the closest I have ever come to understanding the state of emotions of a homosexual was the result of watching the TV show, The Next Generation. To those of you who are not a Star Trek fan, you will not know the characters I am about to talk about. But here goes.

Dr. Beverly Crusher (female Dr. on Enterprise) has a relationship with an alien being (male humanoid) who is serving as a physical host in a symbiotic relationship with another alien (little squigly one). The humanoid’a body can only stand the physical stress of being a host for the other alien a given period of time when he will die. So this happens. The male host must be replaced. And it is, with unexpected results.

Dr. Crusher is in her office when the new host comes through her door. The host is female. You can see the consternation on Beverly’s face when she sees this. The two have a short conversation, can’t remember what. As the host leaves she takes Beverly’s hand and kisses her on the inside of the wrist. You had to see it to understand it, I guess, but that is the closest I have come to understanding homosexuals. Still makes me sad.