S
- Status
P
Pius_X
Guest
I apologise, let me explain my comments. Of course, when you attend a Mass in the Classical Roman Rite you are participating. What I meant was that, for example, in the 1940’s, when my grandmother was catechised, they were told what was happening, but did not know fully what was happening. Yes, they memorized the catechism, a good thing, in my opinion, but they went to mass, and sat through mass, not really knowing what was happening. This is a general statement, not a blanket statement, at all. If I am wrong, or someone has different information, please correct me. Thank you.
G
Genesis315
Guest
According to your personal interpretation. As the Holy Office told Fr. Feeney in 1949 concerning his erroneous interpretation of past and present Magisterial texts, the deposit of faith is not a matter of private judgment.
L
Like
Guest
Where are people getting these weird ideas?:banghead: All of these private interpretations are driving me crazy!
M
Miserere_Mei
Guest
Let’s Make this really easy:
"But the Lord of Ages wisely and patiently follows out the plan of grace
on our behalf, sinners that we are. In recent times more than ever
before, He has been rousing divided Christians to remorse over their
divisions and to a longing for unity. Everywhere large numbers have felt
the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there
increases from day to day the movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy
Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians. This movement
toward unity is called “ecumenical.” Those belong to it who invoke the
Triune God and confess Jesus as Lord and Savior, doing this not merely as
individuals but also as corporate bodies. For almost everyone regards the
body in which he has heard the Gospel as his Church and indeed, God’s
Church. All however, though in different ways, long for the one visible
Church of God, a Church truly universal and set forth into the world that
the world may be converted to the Gospel and so be saved, to the glory of
God.
…The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the
Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of
grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or
Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving
access to the community of salvation."
-Unitatis Redintegratio-
Vatican II document.
"Is it not right, it is often repeated, indeed, even consonant with duty, that all who invoke the name of Christ should abstain from mutual reproaches and at long last be united in mutual charity? Who would dare to say that he loved Christ, unless he worked with all his might to carry out the desires of Him, Who asked His Father that His disciples might be “one.”[1] And did not the same Christ will that His disciples should be marked out and distinguished from others by this characteristic, namely that they loved one another: “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another”?[2] All Christians, they add, should be as “one”: for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength. These things and others that class of men who are known as pan-Christians continually repeat and amplify; and these men, so far from being quite few and scattered, have increased to the dimensions of an entire class, and have grouped themselves into widely spread societies, most of which are directed by non-Catholics, although they are imbued with varying doctrines concerning the things of faith. This undertaking is so actively promoted as in many places to win for itself the adhesion of a number of citizens, and it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a most grave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed."
Pius XI -Mortalium Animus-
Tell me there is no contradiction.
"But the Lord of Ages wisely and patiently follows out the plan of grace
on our behalf, sinners that we are. In recent times more than ever
before, He has been rousing divided Christians to remorse over their
divisions and to a longing for unity. Everywhere large numbers have felt
the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there
increases from day to day the movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy
Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians. This movement
toward unity is called “ecumenical.” Those belong to it who invoke the
Triune God and confess Jesus as Lord and Savior, doing this not merely as
individuals but also as corporate bodies. For almost everyone regards the
body in which he has heard the Gospel as his Church and indeed, God’s
Church. All however, though in different ways, long for the one visible
Church of God, a Church truly universal and set forth into the world that
the world may be converted to the Gospel and so be saved, to the glory of
God.
…The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the
Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of
grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or
Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving
access to the community of salvation."
-Unitatis Redintegratio-
Vatican II document.
"Is it not right, it is often repeated, indeed, even consonant with duty, that all who invoke the name of Christ should abstain from mutual reproaches and at long last be united in mutual charity? Who would dare to say that he loved Christ, unless he worked with all his might to carry out the desires of Him, Who asked His Father that His disciples might be “one.”[1] And did not the same Christ will that His disciples should be marked out and distinguished from others by this characteristic, namely that they loved one another: “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another”?[2] All Christians, they add, should be as “one”: for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength. These things and others that class of men who are known as pan-Christians continually repeat and amplify; and these men, so far from being quite few and scattered, have increased to the dimensions of an entire class, and have grouped themselves into widely spread societies, most of which are directed by non-Catholics, although they are imbued with varying doctrines concerning the things of faith. This undertaking is so actively promoted as in many places to win for itself the adhesion of a number of citizens, and it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a most grave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed."
Pius XI -Mortalium Animus-
Tell me there is no contradiction.
C
Cobbfmly
Guest
Empty churches??? Our NO parish of over 3000 families is literally busting the church building at the seams. At the Easter Vigil we had over 100 people receive baptism, first communion and confirmation or first communion and confirmation.
We are starting the process of building a new larger (1200 seat) church.
B
BobP123
Guest
C
Cobbfmly
Guest
I was born shortly after Vatican II any have only attended NO parishes. From what I have seen over the years in NO parishes have drawn me to the following conclusion about Vatican II.
Between Vatican I and Vatican II, communications technology advanced by leaps and bounds. The Vatican was not ready for the speed which with the documents from Vatican II were be communicated around the world after it closed. As a result, there was not the necessary guidance from the pope in promulgating the documents.
Without the guidance Bishops and priest that were not liberal made innocent mistakes in interpreting the documents. While liberal Bishops and priests used the documents to support there agenda.
Since the close of Vatican II there has been much confusion over Vatican II. Pope John Paul II started clearing up some of this confusion and Pope Benedict XVI is continuing to clear up the confusion.
If I am still alive in 2065, it will be interesting to see how 100 years of popes’ guidance will have brought Vatican II’s true vision for the church into fruition.
If there is also another council in my lifetime, it will be interesting to see how the Vatican controls the communication of any documents coming out of it. In 1965 there was still a time delay in communication while now the is absolutely no delay.
Between Vatican I and Vatican II, communications technology advanced by leaps and bounds. The Vatican was not ready for the speed which with the documents from Vatican II were be communicated around the world after it closed. As a result, there was not the necessary guidance from the pope in promulgating the documents.
Without the guidance Bishops and priest that were not liberal made innocent mistakes in interpreting the documents. While liberal Bishops and priests used the documents to support there agenda.
Since the close of Vatican II there has been much confusion over Vatican II. Pope John Paul II started clearing up some of this confusion and Pope Benedict XVI is continuing to clear up the confusion.
If I am still alive in 2065, it will be interesting to see how 100 years of popes’ guidance will have brought Vatican II’s true vision for the church into fruition.
If there is also another council in my lifetime, it will be interesting to see how the Vatican controls the communication of any documents coming out of it. In 1965 there was still a time delay in communication while now the is absolutely no delay.
C
Cobbfmly
Guest
For clarification, our parish is about 1/2 English speaking and 1/2 Spanish speaking. The 100 people I spoke of were just English speaking. I do not know how many Spanish speaking people were received at the Easter Vigil as we have two Easter Vigils (the Spanish Vigil used the Pascal candle from our mission church, which doesn’t hold a Vigil).
L
Like
Guest
Well, for me, shorty after the NO mass came to be is when I began to fade out of the Church, and by '72 was out. I was wrong, but I was influenced by the changes of the times and listened to others who didn’t know what they were talking about. Oh, I’d show up for Mass 2 - 3 times a year over the next 30 + years, but never registered in any the Churches in the many places we lived in. I always made the excuses to myself & family that I never knew when I might be transferred because of my occupation. So for me and many others, we blamed the changes of the Mass.
P
Pius_X
Guest
Sorry, I must have pissed this post. No, beliefs should not change, but the method we use to spread the gospel needs to adapt, but NOT the teachings themselves.
B
BobP123
Guest
Thanks for that clarification. It appears that the Spanish NO is making significant headway. Yet no fast enough, judging by all the hispanics leaving for (more) charismatic religions.
S
stmaria
Guest
Your Church is an exception not the norm. The Church overall is in decline.
Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.
Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.
Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.
Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.
olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml
C
Cobbfmly
Guest
There is no denying that the number of religious in the US is down. However, I do not think that it can be solely attributed to Vatican II, if it can be attributed at all. In the same time period we have seen other changes that would strongly affect the numbers. I think the biggest contributors are the decline in family size, increased materialism, feminism and sexual “freedom”, These changes radically changed how families and individuals viewed religious life.
In countries that have not encountered these cultural changes, there has not been the drop in religious life (in some cases there have been increases in religious life) that we have encountered in the US (and Europe). If the drop was due to Vatican II, you would expect to see drastic drops in religious life worldwide.
B
BobP123
Guest
Then one should ask this question: would the freedom to change the liturgy, relaxation of many Church rules, freedom from the guilts of sin, loss of moral leadership, etc. have happened without a council convening in the 60’s? I seriously doubt it. I think there’s more cause and effect involved in your examples as well.
A
Ann_Nonymous
Guest
Declining numbers of religious and laity in the US cannot be SOLELY attributed to Vatican II. One has to wonder though, what impact the results of the “SPIRIT of VII” had on Catholics’ willingness to embrace artificial birth control, sexual freedom, feminism, materialism, etc. IMO the impact was dramatic. At a time when the Church could have chosen to reinforce moral teachings and responsibility, we ended up with the multiple misinterpretations of the intent of the council allowing the average Catholic to become completely confused about Church teachings and more vulnerable to the creeping evils of the national culture.
Bob poses an interesting question when he asks what would have happened had there been no Council?
S
sosayi1960
Guest
My dear friend in Christ, Please try to realize that our God is bigger than me and bigger than you. The church, through the Holy Spirit needed to change. Some “rules” were silly. The death of our Lord was our gift of paradise. many of the rituals were pretty but really meant nothing. The Spirit demanded the Church change. The gates of hell cannot prevail against the Holy Spirit.
Be at Peace. All of us our members of the Body of Christ!
L
laudamus_te
Guest
A
Ann_Nonymous
Guest
DITTO!
:bigyikes:
S
stmaria
Guest
Be careful what you say. Canon 7 is from the infallibile Council of Trent Which the Holy Fathers declared was guided by the Holy Spirit.
Canon 7. If anyone says that the** ceremonies,** vestments, and **outward signs **which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety rather than stimulants to piety,[26] let him be anathema.
CHAPTER V
THE CEREMONIES AND RITES OF THE MASS
And since the nature of man is such that he cannot without external means be raised easily to meditation on divine things, holy mother Church has instituted certain rites, namely, that some things in the mass be pronounced in a low tone and others in a louder tone. She has likewise, in accordance with apostolic discipline and tradition, made use of ceremonies,[15] such as mystical blessings, lights, incense, vestments, and many other things of this kind, whereby both the majesty of so great a sacrifice might be emphasized and the minds of the faithful excited by those visible signs of religion and piety to the contemplation of those most sublime things which are hidden in this sacrifice.
- Status