Opinions on 5th marian dogma?

[DeusExMachina]

Im referring to the idea of Mary as Co-redemtrix and mediatrix. In my humble opinion, there are 2 possible ways to interpret this. First, it could simply refer to the virgin’s irreplaceable role in our salvation, which is already a part of catholic doctrine, thus making any further definition redundant AFAIK. The second, much less likely interpretation is that it attempts to actually designate the virgin as a second mediator between god and man, which was unanimously rejected by theologians at Czestochowa precisely because it is heresy, has not been taught by the Magesterium and an innovation in otherwise purely patristic catholic theology. But again, my opinionis in no way infallibe. Anyone else have opinions for or against this potential dogma?

 

[ALoveDivine]

I would be extraordinarily uncomfortable with any fifth Marian dogma proclaiming her as “co-redemptrix”. Christ is the sole redeemer, to even give Mary that title would be pushing on idolatry in my opinion.

I accept the defined Marian dogmas, and I acknowledge the place of honor and reverence for Mary, but often times I find this gets taken too far by some Catholics and borders on worship. I’ve met some who seem more devoted to Mary than to Christ. I think if anything the Church needs to take a step back from focus on Mary and focus a lot more on Christ himself.

To this day I still feel, deep down, very uncomfortable with Marian devotion. I don’t pray the Rosary, and even the Hail Mary irks me a bit. I also come from a protestant background so many this is just some left over baggage. But yeah, too much Marian devotion doesn’t sit well with me and just doesn’t feel right.

 

[peter26]

I’m perfectly comfortable with all the established Marian doctrines and with Marian devotion. But I do find the term “co-redemptrix” to be a step too far in that it seems to place Mary on the same level as Jesus. At the least, its a confusing term.

 

[TimothyH]

It’s already true. The Church just has not formally defined it as dogma.

I hope to see it in my lifetime and will celebrate.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

The Bible has many mediators between God and man.

A mediator is one who goes between two parties and gets them to agree. A proper understanding of “one mediator” is that Jesus is the one perfect mediator between God and man because he alone is both God and man.

But there are lots of mediators between God and Man. Moses was a mediator.

***and said to Moses, “You speak to us, and we will hear; but let not God speak to us, lest we die.” *(Exodus 20:19)

Moses went up and down the mountain at least five times bringing God’s proposals to the people and the people’s response to God.

Mary is the co-redemtrix. Co means with. She co-operated with Jesus and his mission. The idea of Mary as a sheepish victim is a modern invention. Jewish women were fierce. Read about the mother of the seven sons in 2 Maccabees 7. Like her Mary encouraged her son to complete his mission knowing that she would get him back again when he rose from the dead.

Mary always was the co-redemtrix. The Church just hasn’t formally declared it as dogma. I hope I live to see it and will celebrate.

-Tim-

 

[Dorothy]

I would be extraordinarily uncomfortable with any fifth Marian dogma proclaiming her as “co-redemptrix”. Christ is the sole redeemer, to even give Mary that title would be pushing on idolatry in my opinion.

I accept the defined Marian dogmas, and I acknowledge the place of honor and reverence for Mary, but often times I find this gets taken too far by some Catholics and borders on worship. I’ve met some who seem more devoted to Mary than to Christ. I think if anything the Church needs to take a step back from focus on Mary and focus a lot more on Christ himself.

To this day I still feel, deep down, very uncomfortable with Marian devotion. I don’t pray the Rosary, and even the Hail Mary irks me a bit. I also come from a protestant background so many this is just some left over baggage. But yeah, too much Marian devotion doesn’t sit well with me and just doesn’t feel right.

Our Blessed Mother said in sacred scripture that her soul magnifies the Lord. She, a mere creature like us, but…endowed with special graces does magnify Jesus our Lord and Saviour for me.

 

[phil19034]

I’m perfectly comfortable with all the established Marian doctrines and with Marian devotion. But I do find the term “co-redemptrix” to be a step too far in that it seems to place Mary on the same level as Jesus. At the least, its a confusing term.

This is NOT what “co-redemptrix” means.

I suggest the following resources (there are many more):

• Tim Staples’ book Behold Your Mother
• Deacon Dr. Mark Miravalle’s book Meet Your Mother
• Plus, the Meet Your Mother CD
• The DVD What Every Catholic Needs to Know About Mary
• Tim Staples’s CD Mary: The Indispensable Mother of God

 

[MT1926]

Im referring to the idea of Mary as Co-redemtrix and mediatrix. In my humble opinion, there are 2 possible ways to interpret this. First, it could simply refer to the virgin’s irreplaceable role in our salvation, which is already a part of catholic doctrine, thus making any further definition redundant AFAIK. The second, much less likely interpretation is that it attempts to actually designate the virgin as a second mediator between god and man, which was unanimously rejected by theologians at Czestochowa precisely because it is heresy, has not been taught by the Magesterium and an innovation in otherwise purely patristic catholic theology. But again, my opinionis in no way infallibe. Anyone else have opinions for or against this potential dogma?

I am sure there are many others here that can give you a great response to this question.

Whenever, I hear the term Co-redemtrix my mind automatically goes to the idea of leader (Jesus) and co-leader (Mary). You can ask the co-leader (Mary) a question and tell her all of the whys and hows, but the co-leader in the end has to take the request to the leader (Jesus).

Might not be the proper interpretation but seems logical in my mind.

Matthew 19:26

 

[Secant]

Co-redemptrix, as was mentioned by phil19034, does not mean that Mary is another redeemer and his book references are excellent.

However, a cliff notes version for those who cannot get to the resources is that co-redemptrix means that Mary cooperated in the savior’s work, not that she is another redeemer. In a way, we all are called to be co-redeemers since we are all called to cooperate with our own salvation and those of others. Mary had a unique role in the salvation of each of us, but the only one who saves us is Jesus.

However, it cannot be denied that Mary’s freely willed fiat (caused by God granting her the grace to accept this role) allowed the Christ to be born in this world, and save us. She has a unique role in bringing to all of us our salvation. No other being was called to cooperate in the salvation of every soul. That is why she is called the co-redemptrix.

 

[littlestsouls2]

I believe that Mary is Mediatrix; many Popes and theologians have suggested this, and the arguments they put forward are weighty.

It seems that a correct understanding of Mary’s role as Mediatrix will ensure that the title Coredemptrix is not interpreted in an heretical manner.

“I am the mediatrix between God and men; all graces pass through my hands.”

• Our Lady to St. Veronica Giuliani, d. 1727 (‘Divine Communications’, p. 104, Vol. 2)

“Henceforth your prayers will obtain conversions because My Mother and yours, Mary – Mediatrix of all Graces – will offer them in union with her own.” (Jesus to Sr. Mary of the Holy Trinity, # 151)

 

[otjm]

Is it necessary for salvation that the Church define this?

It would seem we have managed to survive 2,000 years or so without this definition, and likely will survive another 2,000 years if the Second Coming does not occur first.

And there are enough age-old lies circulating about the Church that there really appears to be no need to provide more ammunition. The Church seeks to reconcile all to Christ, not unnecessarily provide more roadblocks.

Truth is no less true if it is not raised to the level of dogma.

 

[pnewton]

I see no point in either term being proclaimed as dogma. It would serve little purpose at this time.

 

[TimothyH]

Is it necessary for salvation that the Church define this?

It would seem we have managed to survive 2,000 years or so without this definition, and likely will survive another 2,000 years if the Second Coming does not occur first.

And there are enough age-old lies circulating about the Church that there really appears to be no need to provide more ammunition. The Church seeks to reconcile all to Christ, not unnecessarily provide more roadblocks.

Truth is no less true if it is not raised to the level of dogma.

Whether something is necessary for salvation or not is not the point of elevating a belief to the status of dogma.

What is necessary for salvation are called the Precepts of the Church.

-Tim-

 

[thistle]

Im referring to the idea of Mary as Co-redemtrix and mediatrix. In my humble opinion, there are 2 possible ways to interpret this. First, it could simply refer to the virgin’s irreplaceable role in our salvation, which is already a part of catholic doctrine, thus making any further definition redundant AFAIK. The second, much less likely interpretation is that it attempts to actually designate the virgin as a second mediator between god and man, which was unanimously rejected by theologians at Czestochowa precisely because it is heresy, has not been taught by the Magesterium and an innovation in otherwise purely patristic catholic theology. But again, my opinionis in no way infallibe. Anyone else have opinions for or against this potential dogma?

There is no 5th Marian dogma and nor will there be and nor is there need for one.

 

[Genesis315]

Dogmas are truths revealed by God and found in Scripture and/or Tradition. They either are or aren’t. You usually see this as a call for the Pope to definitively confirm as dogma the titles of Mary as Advocate, Co-Redemptrix, and Mediatrix of all Graces.

The way it is proposed–as a series of titles–doesn’t make much sense as a formulation of a definitive dogma. But let’s look at the underlying truths:

Mary is certainly an advocate–this is essentially just an element of the dogma of the communion of Saints and her special advocacy is revealed directly in Scripture (e.g. wedding at Cana) not to mention being an obvious element of Tradition. As such, I think the Church already holds Mary’s advocacy as a dogma (a revealed truth) and see no need for an extraordinary definition.

Likewise, Mary’s special role in our redemption is revealed explicitly in Scripture (e.g. at the Annunciation , the presentation, and the Crucifixion) and is also an obvious element of Tradition. I think the term “Co-Redemptrix” is often misunderstood and therefore may not be opportune to use, but the underlying truth appears to already be held by the Church as a revealed truth–if it is doubted, a definition might be necessary.

Finally, there is the idea of her being the Mediatrix of all Graces–the idea that she distributes or dispenses the graces won by her Son or at least that all graces flow through her like a channel or neck. While this doctrine has certainly been taught by Popes and an ecumenical Council, whether it can truly be called a revealed truth (rather than some lesser doctrinal category) I think is debatable. I think an argument for it can be drawn from Scripture (looking at the Annunciation, Visitation, Nativity, and Pentecost, especially), but it is not as clear as the others. Looking at the Fathers and Magisterium, an argument can also be made from Tradition, but it is also not as clear as the other two points above. As such, it could be appropriate for the Church’s Magisterium to definitively decide whether it is indeed a revealed truth or not by an extraordinarydefinition.

 

[phil19034]

There is no 5th Marian dogma and **nor will there be **and nor is there need for one.

You do not know this. The 5 Doctrine could be dogmatically defined one day. After all, the 4th Doctrine wasn’t defined dogmatically until the 20th century.

Dogma 1 - Mother of God, dogmatically defined in 431
Dogma 2 - Perpetual Virginity, dogmatically defined in 649
Dogma 3 - Immaculate Conception, dogmatically defined in 1854
Dogma 4 - The Assumption, dogmatically defined in 1950

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/mary/general-information/the-four-marian-dogmas/

But these four Dogmas are part (the defined part) of the Marian Doctrines, which include these four Dogmas, but also include:

Cooperation in the Redemption (co-redemtrix)
Mediatrix of All Graces
Spiritual Motherhood
Queenship

NOTE: Some include co-redemtrix, mediartix and spiritual motherhood all as one Doctrine, while grouping Queenship with the Assumption.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya1.htm

Again, I highly recommend the resources I provided in a previous post. I also recommend 33 Days to Morning Glory by Fr. Michael E. Gaitley, MIC.

God Bless!

 

[phil19034]

Dogmas are truths revealed by God and found in Scripture and/or Tradition. They either are or aren’t.

I think the above better defines Doctrine, not Dogma. Dogma is essentially defined Doctrine.

 

[thistle]

You do not know this. The 5 Doctrine could be dogmatically defined one day. After all, the 4th Doctrine wasn’t defined dogmatically until the 20th century.

Dogma 1 - Mother of God, dogmatically defined in 431
Dogma 2 - Perpetual Virginity, dogmatically defined in 649
Dogma 3 - Immaculate Conception, dogmatically defined in 1854
Dogma 4 - The Assumption, dogmatically defined in 1950

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/mary/general-information/the-four-marian-dogmas/

But these four Dogmas are part (the defined part) of the Marian Doctrines, which include these four Dogmas, but also include:

Cooperation in the Redemption (co-redemtrix)
Mediatrix of All Graces
Spiritual Motherhood
Queenship

NOTE: Some include co-redemtrix, mediartix and spiritual motherhood all as one Doctrine, while grouping Queenship with the Assumption.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya1.htm

Again, I highly recommend the resources I provided in a previous post. I also recommend 33 Days to Morning Glory by Fr. Michael E. Gaitley, MIC.

God Bless!

Another Marian dogma is totally unnecessary and is being drummed up by people who almost put Mary above Jesus. Its no wonder many non-Catholics have the impression we worship Mary.
There is no need for another dogma. Its simply nonsense.

 

[The_Serpent]

Mary’s role may be compared to that of Eve. Eve assisted Adam in sinning and falling, likewise Mary assisted Jesus in his work of redemption. It is a theological derivation from the redemptive work of Jesus. The right questions to ask are; What did the Eastern and Western Fathers write about this concept? What patristic writings support this Co-mediatrix, Co-redemtrix theory? It probably needs more development.

 

[phil19034]

Another Marian dogma is totally unnecessary and is being drummed up by people who almost put Mary above Jesus. Its no wonder many non-Catholics have the impression we worship Mary.
There is no need for another dogma. Its simply nonsense.

I don’t think this is a charitable response. No orthodox Marian will ever put Mary above Jesus. Mary leads us to her Son.

In the time of Christ, and even for many centuries after, the King’s Mother was the 2nd most important person after the King. She was far more important than the King’s wife. Because blood is thicker than water

Jews back then (and even Orthodox and Conservative Jews today) believe that the prayers of a mother for her children are far more powerful than any other intercessory prayer. So when Jesus made Mary the mother of us all while on the Cross, he basically made Mary’s prayers for us more powerful and equal to the prayers of our own earthly mothers. But the fact that Mary is also Jesus’s Mother combined with the fact that she is now our spiritual Mother, makes her intercession more powerful.

So the fact that Mary is a medatrix and co-redemtrix actually helps us to learn more about God.

Because all of the Marian Dogmas and Doctrines teach use something about The Holy Trinity, not about Mary.

Learning about the “5th Marian Doctrine” is very enlightening about the love of family and the make up of The Holy Trinity. It teaches that God wants us to all play a role in the salvation of others. To pray for one another, to be there for one another, to love one another. If we all follow the example the 5th Doctrine teaches, we will become saintly people.

God Bless