Opinions on Catholic bishops' support for socialistic ideas

[richardacombs]

Charitable sharing is not what socialism is about. It is about government having control over the means of production and taking too much of the private property of the citizens.
God’s commandment to be merciful to neighbors is not aimed at the government,but at individuals.

The supposed right to medical treatment is not a part of God’s commandments or the natural law. We don’t have a natural right to other people’s care or professional skills or time,just as we don’t have a right to other people’s love. Not all of our moral responsibilities toward others translate into rights.

Yes,we should give to the less fortunate,but of our own choice. Supporting government welfare programs is not an act of charity or justice,and the government cannot love our neighbors for us. It can only keep those who are dependent upon it. Government is not the proper means for doing good toward the poor,needy and sick.

The definition that I gave of socialism was simply to limit the scope of what was included under the banner of socialism, as a political-economic system, which really did not concern itself with subjects such as immigration.

I also pointed out that socialism has failed in implementing its most basic principles.

I agree that individual giving is the ideal method of redistributing wealth, however, relying on individual contributions has also failed in the past and even today. That can probably be attributed to the same reason socialism has failed: to paraphrase G.K. Chesterton, self is the root of selfish. Most people would rather keep than share, as we learn in St Mark 10:21-22. That is part of fallen people living in a fallen world.

Since government, especially our system of government, represents its constituents, it supposedly can do more than any individual or smaller group of individuals to benefit the common good. So, individuals (sometimes unwillingly) give up part of their rights in things like being forced to wear seat belts while in moving automobiles and part of their income in long-term benefit programs like Social Security, Medicare, and taxes.

Unfortunately, our government hasn’t done a very good job in remedying basic issues like unemployment, medical care, homelessness, hunger, etc, etc. in spite of the money it has collected.

This does not mean that the government should not be involved in those issues, just that it ought to do a better job. The productive members of a Christian society ideally should provide benefits for the unemployed, should provide essential medical care for those unable to afford it, should feed those unable to feed themselves, should house those unable to house themselves–these are basic tenets of Christianity. We, Catholics, are called to be ambassadors of Christ, to do what He, Himself, would do.

 

[anthony022071]

The definition that I gave of socialism was simply to limit the scope of what was included under the banner of socialism, as a political-economic system, which really did not concern itself with subjects such as immigration.

I also pointed out that socialism has failed in implementing its most basic principles.

I agree that individual giving is the ideal method of redistributing wealth, however, relying on individual contributions has also failed in the past and even today. That can probably be attributed to the same reason socialism has failed: to paraphrase G.K. Chesterton, self is the root of selfish. Most people would rather keep than share, as we learn in St Mark 10:21-22. That is part of fallen people living in a fallen world.

The purpose of charitable giving is not to guarantee the result that everyone in society has everything that they need anyway,it is to do God’s will. God’s commandment to share what we have with those in need is not a mandate to ensure that everyone’s bodily needs are met. That is an impossible task in a large society unbonded by a common religion or culture,unless we turn our society into a vast concentration camp.

Since government, especially our system of government, represents its constituents, it supposedly can do more than any individual or smaller group of individuals to benefit the common good. So, individuals (sometimes unwillingly) give up part of their rights in things like being forced to wear seat belts while in moving automobiles and part of their income in long-term benefit programs like Social Security, Medicare, and taxes.

Our system of government is intended to safeguard our liberties,not provide for our bodily needs. It is not the common will of the people that their tax money should be doled out to the needy and putting them in a permanent state of dependency. The government’s responsibility to benefit the common good does not properly extend to the responsibility to take care of our personal needs,because these should be taken care of by ourselves,or by family,or by neighbors,and by the Church. The government cannot show love or consideration for the dignity of persons when it is providing for them.

Unfortunately, our government hasn’t done a very good job in remedying basic issues like unemployment, medical care, homelessness, hunger, etc, etc. in spite of the money it has collected.

That’s because these things involve the personal behavior of those in need,those who are handling the money involved,and those who are in positions of responsibility of caring for those in need.

This does not mean that the government should not be involved in those issues, just that it ought to do a better job. The productive members of a Christian society ideally should provide benefits for the unemployed, should provide essential medical care for those unable to afford it, should feed those unable to feed themselves, should house those unable to house themselves–these are basic tenets of Christianity. We, Catholics, are called to be ambassadors of Christ, to do what He, Himself, would do.

Christ did not command the goverment or collective society to provide for people’s personal needs,he commanded us as individuals to do works of charity.

 

[Black_Rose]

The purpose of charitable giving is not to guarantee the result that everyone in society has everything that they need anyway,it is to do God’s will. God’s commandment to share what we have with those in need is not a mandate to ensure that everyone’s bodily needs are met.

You just admitted that charitable giving cannot realistically be regarded as a solution to any problem. It is obvious that government is more effective than private charity at achieving specific ends.

The government cannot show love or consideration for the dignity of persons when it is providing for them.

How do government programs “cannot show love or consideration for the dignity of persons when it is providing for them”? I do see how it is impossible for a government program to respect the dignity of its recipients. The shame of receiving assistance from private charity and being impoverished negatively impact one’s sense of dignity more than a government program.

Christ did not command the goverment or collective society to provide for people’s personal needs,he commanded us as individuals to do works of charity.

Christ did not prohibited collective action explicitly

 

[elts1956]

I fully support the ideas that Jesus expounded while he was here on earth with us including being charitable to all, helping those in need and leading Christ-like lives. Hiding behind “the law” as did the pharisees and saducees has got to stop. I disagree with the notion that our Bishops are “socialists” unless you would also say that so was Jesus.

Christ taught individual Social Justice as care for the poor being the responsibility of individuals not government takover of indiviudal income in order to support the poor. Social Justice and Socialism are two different birds. Very confusing but quite different.

 

[elts1956]

I fully support the ideas that Jesus expounded while he was here on earth with us including being charitable to all, helping those in need and leading Christ-like lives. Hiding behind “the law” as did the pharisees and saducees has got to stop. I disagree with the notion that our Bishops are “socialists” unless you would also say that so was Jesus.

You just admitted that charitable giving cannot realistically be regarded as a solution to any problem. It is obvious that government is more effective than private charity at achieving specific ends.

How do government programs “cannot show love or consideration for the dignity of persons when it is providing for them”? I do see how it is impossible for a government program to respect the dignity of its recipients. The shame of receiving assistance from private charity and being impoverished negatively impact one’s sense of dignity more than a government program.

Christ did not prohibited collective action explicitly

I think all who support collective social justice should start a petition and state they and they alone will be responsible for giving away their taxes and leave those of us who believe in the Social Justice of Christ alone. Let’s see how far that would play out.

 

[Anrando]

Certainly:France: Infant mortality is 4.2 deaths per 1,000 live births.
United States: Infant mortality is 6.3 deaths per 1,000 live births.
Now, what were you saying about “socialist healthcare”?

rossum

The use of statistics like these are politically motivated and are not a true comparison of “health care”. As an old school biologist I have asked the question never attached to these type of stats, ie; WHY?.

Yes the USA has a higher infant mortality but it has NOTHING to do with the quality of health care in the USA, it has to do with the HUGE number of babies born to drug addicted mothers, alcohol abusive mothers, mothers with sexually transmitted diseases and so forth.

If you compare the survival rates of low birth weight babies around the world, the USA clearly leads all other systems. It is not the quality of medical care to blame for the stat you throw out, but the hedonistic lifestyles of mothers in the USA that is responsible.

Please spare me the nationalized medicine is better argument. In fact it is not.

Similarly, the often quoted life expectancy numbers used to prove the superiority of government controlled medicine list the USA as being near the bottom of the list. But these UN generated stats totally ignore the reasons WHY. The USA has the highest number of traffic related deaths, the highest number of homicides, the highest number of drug related deaths, the highest number of obesity related deaths, not to mention that the US military have been dying in countless conflicts while most of the higher rated countries have NOT contributed to the defense of the world. All of this has NOTHING to do with the quality of medical care in the USA, but everything to do with lifestyle and prosperity. More cars, more driving = more deaths.

These statistics, like any not carefully reviewed, are being used politically to deceive the naive.

Drink the koolaid at your own risk.

Bill Unland

 

[Anrando]

Personally, I understand the position of the Church in clearly stating that it is our calling to help those in need. Where I have a real problem is in their promotion and support of government solutions. I firmly believe that the Church should remain apolitical. They should state the Church position on abortion, on marriage, on charitable giving etc. but I do not believe that G-d is calling upon them to “support” any given political candidate or system of government.

When the Bishops “back” a given political policy it will cause doubt in faithful Catholics who might hold opposing political views that do not go against Church teachings. It is NOT anti-Catholic to oppose the US government control over health care in the US. This is the type of problem people imagined when J.F. Kennedy was running for president. Protestants wondered whether he would follow the Bishops or the law. When you have the Church hierarchy wading into domestic politics you put the faithful in the position of having to choose between obedience to the Church and their own common sense. In non-religious matters I think it wrong of the Bishops to put the faithful in this position.

Tell us abortion is wrong, tell us to help the poor, but please don’t select for us what politician YOU think is best, please don’t tell me which political system will be best for the “collective good”.

I have been working for 45 years now. By my calculations, clearly 20 of those years have been worked in slavery to the state. If I subtract the 10% of the time for that applied to national security, the police and fire department, and public roads, I end up with 18 years of slavery in the name of SOCIAL JUSTICE from which I have received NOTHING in return.

Is this REALLY what G-d had in mind? Is it really my Catholic duty to be a slave so that the government can give my labors to the prototypical welfare mother eating fast food in front of her TV watching Oprah all day, or the drug addict who can’t work because of his “illness”, or even the illegal resident receiving section 8 housing allowances and welfare in the name of JUSTICE.

I have a real problem with this whole concept. It seems the Bishops live a pretty good life, the politicians certainly do, the priest in charge of Catholic Charities USA takes a salary of $140K a year, our “betters” do pretty well for themselves. I read this very morning that my Caesar in Washington has spent $10 million on parties and entertainment at the White House during the last year. That $10 mil would have bought a lot of SOCIAL JUSTICE. Meanwhile those of us that have to work are barely getting by, and yet our leaders want more in the name of JUSTICE. I’m sorry I am tired of it. I can’t pay anymore!

As I mentioned in another post, Jesus commands that we sell all we have, give it to the poor, and follow him, he does NOT command us to give everything to Caesar and follow him.

Sorry for the rant.

Regards,
Bill Unland

 

[anthony022071]

You just admitted that charitable giving cannot realistically be regarded as a solution to any problem. It is obvious that government is more effective than private charity at achieving specific ends.

Charitable giving is a commandment of God. There is no guarantee that it will result in the elimination of poverty or neediness in a large society. That is an impossible goal because poverty and neediness have to do with the way people choose to live their lives,and their amount of energy and initiative,not just external factors like the rich stealing from the poor or

How do government programs “cannot show love or consideration for the dignity of persons when it is providing for them”?

Because the government is a bureaucracy that does not have any personal interest in the people who depend upon it. When it helps people,it does so like a massive vending machine.

I do see how it is impossible for a government program to respect the dignity of its recipients. The shame of receiving assistance from private charity and being impoverished negatively impact one’s sense of dignity more than a government program.

Recieving private charity is only shameful because people are embarrassed to receive help from other people.

 

[anthony022071]

Edited:

You just admitted that charitable giving cannot realistically be regarded as a solution to any problem. It is obvious that government is more effective than private charity at achieving specific ends.

Charitable giving is a commandment of God. It is not given with a guarantee that it will result in the elimination of poverty or neediness in a large society. That is an impossible goal because poverty and neediness has to do with the way people choose to live their lives,and their energy and initiative,not necessarily external factors like the rich stealing from the poor and discriminating against them and denying them opportunities and fair wages. There are no solutions to the human problems of many people. Only obedience to God’s commandments by whole societies can ensure that all the poor and needy will be cared for.

How do government programs “cannot show love or consideration for the dignity of persons when it is providing for them”?

Because government programs are not personal. Bureaucracies do not have any personal interest in the people who depend upon them. Government programs are like massive vending machines. They are more mechanical and systematic than humane.

I do see how it is impossible for a government program to respect the dignity of its recipients. The shame of receiving assistance from private charity and being impoverished negatively impact one’s sense of dignity more than a government program.

Recieving private charity is only shameful because people would rather be self-sufficient, and pride causes them to be embarrassed to ask and receive help from other people face to face. But this is not a matter of being treated in a degrading manner,like a mere creature of needs.

 

[Black_Rose]

Edited:

Recieving private charity is only shameful because people would rather be self-sufficient, and pride causes them to be embarrassed to ask and receive help from other people face to face. But this is not a matter of being treated in a degrading manner,like a mere creature of needs.

I do not see the supposed superiority of having people receiving aid face to face or through the government. At least the latter can be done privately and somewhat confidentially (if done properly.)

Charity will always be shameful and that is why I do not like it and I do not want to spend my personal time volunteering directly. I do not want to see them as supplicants who are humiliating themselves, but as fellow citizens.

 

[Rom_8_35]

For those of you attacking the church’s teaching or leadership…

Who has given you the right to judge the authority of the bishops and cause division and dissension within the church? The church was empowered by Christ and is inspired by the Holy Spirit. When you attack the church, you attack Jesus who is head of the church. What kind of lukewarm Catholics are you emulating that you can easily judge, ridicule or abandon your church and suggest to others to do the same as well as refrain from making contributions. Never in a million years would I want to give up the sanctifying body of Christ for my own personal ideologies. How can so many of you not see that those ideas proposed above that attack and weaken the church have been planted by so many pseudo righteous individuals and self-glorifying media personalities that despise the Catholic Church for its holiness and its adherence to the teaching of the truth. They want nothing more but for the Catholic Church to be destroyed. These false prophets and corrupt people only want to do away with the beacon of truth that can illuminate their evil deeds. They want freedom in which to conduct limitless moral crimes that will be the ruin of many innocent souls. Satan anyone? I believe it is ok to question our faith and church teaching but we have to seek the answers through God’s guidance, with humility and reverence to the church and the will of God. We have no right to impose our will on the church. We must be defenders of our church not destroyers. If we exclude God from our lives and make plans without him we are setting ourselves up for failure.

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a good conscience, desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things. Hebrews 13:17-18

 

[elts1956]

For those of you attacking the church’s teaching or leadership…

Who has given you the right to judge the authority of the bishops and cause division and dissension within the church? The church was empowered by Christ and is inspired by the Holy Spirit. When you attack the church, you attack Jesus who is head of the church. What kind of lukewarm Catholics are you emulating that you can easily judge, ridicule or abandon your church and suggest to others to do the same as well as refrain from making contributions. Never in a million years would I want to give up the sanctifying body of Christ for my own personal ideologies. How can so many of you not see that those ideas proposed above that attack and weaken the church have been planted by so many pseudo righteous individuals and self-glorifying media personalities that despise the Catholic Church for its holiness and its adherence to the teaching of the truth. They want nothing more but for the Catholic Church to be destroyed. These false prophets and corrupt people only want to do away with the beacon of truth that can illuminate their evil deeds. They want freedom in which to conduct limitless moral crimes that will be the ruin of many innocent souls. Satan anyone? I believe it is ok to question our faith and church teaching but we have to seek the answers through God’s guidance, with humility and reverence to the church and the will of God. We have no right to impose our will on the church. We must be defenders of our church not destroyers. If we exclude God from our lives and make plans without him we are setting ourselves up for failure.

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a good conscience, desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things. Hebrews 13:17-18

Who is imposing whose will? We are making rational observations. The Dem. Party has been called the Party of Death by Archbishop Raymond Burke. As for me and mine, I will follow those Church leaders who have the backbone to stand up to the anti life society we now live in. Those who dissent from Church teaching by either their silence, or actions and support of those who are undermining the Catholic Church are the ones dividing the Church. We have the right and the obligation to speak out against such treachery.

 

[Rom_8_35]

Not once in this thread have I read:

-Let’s pray and ask God to guide, strengthen and defend our church.
-Let’s pray that the Holy Spirit continue to bless and inspire the church to do God’s will.
-Let’s pray for our church leaders, that they may persevere in their faith, grow in holiness, and avoid the attacks of Satan so that they can lead their flock to Christ.
-Let’s pray that we receive the Holy Spirit to understand God’s will and follow it despite our personal preferences.

Why has no one suggested we pray together, seek guidance and discuss with our pastor or bishop the social and moral issues taught by the church? We should give thanks and praise to God for giving us a holy and apostolic church.

If you believe prayer won’t work to bring about change, then you have a bigger problem than libertarianism or socialism. With lack of faith, hope and love, your freedom or money are not endangered but your very soul. Let’s all pray for one another and ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, angels and saints to join in our prayers to strengthen the body of Christ.

Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1Corinthians 1:10

 

[Rom_8_35]

Who is imposing whose will? We are making rational observations. The Dem. Party has been called the Party of Death by Archbishop Raymond Burke. As for me and mine, I will follow those Church leaders who have the backbone to stand up to the anti life society we now live in. Those who dissent from Church teaching by either their silence, or actions and support of those who are undermining the Catholic Church are the ones dividing the Church. We have the right and the obligation to speak out against such treachery.

I am speaking of those individuals who have posted petty and useless rants against the church with no purpose than to criticize for their own personal agenda. I am not speaking about thoughtful reflection made to bring light a negative situation. It is so often the case that many people state that they won’t go to church because they don’t believe in this or that, that the church preaches. Going to church is not about individual preference to ideologies it’s about God and his teachings. It is not a priest consecrating the Eucharist but Christ. Yes, I go agree we do have the right and even obligation to speak up against injustices and scandalous teaching but it has to be done in an appropriate manner. We should try to bring about unity and not discord.

If your brother sins go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17

 

[rossum]

Yes the USA has a higher infant mortality but it has NOTHING to do with the quality of health care in the USA, it has to do with the HUGE number of babies born to drug addicted mothers, alcohol abusive mothers, mothers with sexually transmitted diseases and so forth.

To test your thesis I had a quick look at the figures for drug addiction.

France: 900,000 addicts in a population of 60 million. 1.5% addicts.

USA: 4 million addicts in a population of 294 million. 1.4% addicts.

Your thesis falls at the first hurdle.

I will also point out that the rates of sexually transmitted diseases are influenced by the quality of healthcare available to those who are infected, so that is not independent of the general quality of healthcare in the country.

You will have to do better than this.

rossum

 

[Sherry_G]

For those of you attacking the church’s teaching or leadership…

Who has given you the right to judge the authority of the bishops and cause division and dissension within the church? The church was empowered by Christ and is inspired by the Holy Spirit. When you attack the church, you attack Jesus who is head of the church. What kind of lukewarm Catholics are you emulating that you can easily judge, ridicule or abandon your church and suggest to others to do the same as well as refrain from making contributions. Never in a million years would I want to give up the sanctifying body of Christ for my own personal ideologies. How can so many of you not see that those ideas proposed above that attack and weaken the church have been planted by so many pseudo righteous individuals and self-glorifying media personalities that despise the Catholic Church for its holiness and its adherence to the teaching of the truth. They want nothing more but for the Catholic Church to be destroyed. These false prophets and corrupt people only want to do away with the beacon of truth that can illuminate their evil deeds. They want freedom in which to conduct limitless moral crimes that will be the ruin of many innocent souls. Satan anyone? I believe it is ok to question our faith and church teaching but we have to seek the answers through God’s guidance, with humility and reverence to the church and the will of God. We have no right to impose our will on the church. We must be defenders of our church not destroyers. If we exclude God from our lives and make plans without him we are setting ourselves up for failure.

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a good conscience, desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things. Hebrews 13:17-18

Amen! Examine the words in the initial question and discover the bias of the OP. I do not hear our bishops enough and support them at each opportunity when they publicly denounce evil and call out to all of humanity to follow Christ’s teachings. Just as Jesus was hated, so are those who carry His message. Sadly enough, detractors within the Church, especially our government leaders (so-called) such as Pelosi, Biden, Kennedy have publicly voiced their own opinions as if that is all that is necessary to keep a clear conscience and call themselves “Catholic”.

Prayer, receipt of the sacraments regularly, especially the sacrament of Penance, now called Reconciliation and spending time in Eucharistic Adoration are necessary for our own salvation and that of our brothers and sisters. Speaking the truth by our Bishops and all clergy should be applauded and upheld by the laity. Making a mockery of our faith by villifying those who do not support your political bent has to stop. Clergymen are charged by Christ to shepherd the faithful. Let’s support them without holding up every word they speak under the microscope of our own individual ideology/ political viewpoint. Of course, we can disagree or question, however to do so in a disrespectful manner only serves satan.

 

[rossum]

Sadly enough, detractors within the Church, especially our government leaders (so-called) such as Pelosi, Biden, Kennedy have publicly voiced their own opinions as if that is all that is necessary to keep a clear conscience and call themselves “Catholic”.

Perhaps this is one of the issues in this thread. None of those people are my government leaders because I do not live in America. It would be a huge mistake for the Catholic Church in Europe to follow the political program of the American Republican Party. Politics in Europe are not the same as politics in America and any attempt to force the Catholic Bishops of Europe to follow what in European terms is an extreme right wing line would swiftly render the Church irrelevant and ignored here.

The Catholic Church is a worldwide organisation with worldwide responsibilities. It is not the Republican Party at prayer with responsibilities only in America. Trying to force it into a purely American model will damage it worldwide.

rossum

 

[Sherry_G]

Perhaps this is one of the issues in this thread. None of those people are my government leaders because I do not live in America. It would be a huge mistake for the Catholic Church in Europe to follow the political program of the American Republican Party.
No one is suggesting this.

Politics in Europe are not the same as politics in America and any attempt to force the Catholic Bishops of Europe to follow **what in European terms is an extreme right wing line **
Is prolife now considered right wing in Europe?
would swiftly render the Church irrelevant and ignored here.
The Church is not a political tool.

The Catholic Church is a worldwide organisation with worldwide responsibilities. It is not the Republican Party at prayer with responsibilities only in America. Trying to force it into a purely American model will damage it worldwide.

rossum

Interesting deduction you have made here. My comments were pointing out those Catholics in name only who espouse their **own viewpoints **as if it were Catholic Doctrine. All of our Bishops are serving at the pleasure of God in the person of Jesus Christ.

I did not mention any political party group, only politicians who identify themselves publicly as Catholics yet continue to support the murder of our unborn children.

 

[anthony022071]

I do not see the supposed superiority of having people receiving aid face to face or through the government. At least the latter can be done privately and somewhat confidentially (if done properly.)

It is better to provide for other’s needs in a personal manner or by way of the Church,rather than for us to leave it to the government to do it in an impersonal,bureaucratic,administrative,mechanical,manner,which is unnatural.
The government is not a parent or a neighbor to our neighbors. It cannot love our neighbors as ourselves and it is not the proper vehicle for caring for them. It is the responsibility of neighbors and families and communities and the Church to care for the needy.

Charity will always be shameful and that is why I do not like it and I do not want to spend my personal time volunteering directly. I do not want to see them as supplicants who are humiliating themselves, but as fellow citizens.

Charity is not shameful,it is beautiful and it is God’s will that we practice it. It only feels shameful for those who feel queasy about practicing it,and being asked for help,and who fear to be looked down upon. If you don’t have scorn for those who ask for your help,but are glad to help them in the name of Jesus,then you will relieve them of shame. Show that you are serving God and them in humility,and you will not be humiliating them. There is no cause for shame where charity is practiced in the Spirit and with humility before God and before the needy.

 

[rossum]

No one is suggesting this.

The OP is.

What is your opinion on the Catholic bishops’ support for typically socialistic ideas,such as universal heath care mandated and controlled by the governement

Universal government run health care is very common in Europe and generally supported by parties of both the right and the left. It only seems to be much of an issue in America. That is one reason why I see this thread as related specifically to American politics.

Is prolife now considered right wing in Europe?

No. But much of the Republican Party line would be, such as abolishing universal government health care. American politics is not the same as European politics. It would be a great mistake to expect Catholic Bishops in Europe to espouse political positions that are only relevant to America. I take your point that pro-life positions are the same but many other things mentioned in the OP should be treated differently on different sides of the Atlantic.

rossum