Opinions on the Reformation

[Ridgerunner]

I’m sorry but I said “if”. The reason I put it that way is because when I was raised in the RCC, old time pre-vatII Baltimore catechism RCC, I was taught about following the RCC and its rituals. As an altar boy, I suffered punishment for not getting it right in repeating the Latin responses or doing something out of order. I understood getting to heaven, or at least purgatory, as being a good person and following the RCC rules. I didn’t know Jesus.

During my time, in my parish, private Scripture reading was not encouraged, it was discouraged. It was enough that we heard it at Mass. When I finally got hold of the Scriptures, I found my faith, I found Jesus. This may not be your experience but it was mine. I felt I was drifting in the RCC way; so, I turned to the Scriptures to find an anchor. I found it in God’s Word. I can appreciate Mass now but I cannot agree that the RCC is the only true group of believers (church) on earth today. To be considered RC, the RCC says I must, so where does that leave me? Kind of in the same place as the reformers.

I am not certain why you are so angry? I do not regret my words except that I wasn’t clear on saying “if” but I regret that we cannot communicate charitably.
P.S. A slamming door would have been a better icon to leave with than a smily face!

Well, I won’t slam the door.

I think a lot of these kinds of experiential things are more subjective than anything else, and might not be related to the Church itself at all.

I, too, had to learn Latin as an altar boy,and considered it a privilege notwithstanding that I had a tough time of it. My grandchildren are extremely interested in learning the Latin responses and know a good number of them notwithstanding that the only Latin Mass available is a long way from here. I particularly appreciated the “Kyrie”, and still do, though it isn’t Latin, but Greek. I liked it as a boy because it reminded me of the ties between Greek East and Latin West that still exist but much less so than they once did. I felt I was honoring the Greeks (both Catholic and Orthodox) in saying it; expressing a certain unity with them.

The Gospel was always read at Mass back then. I’ll grant, the Epistle and many of the biblical prayers were in Latin. But if you had a good prayerbook, the translation was right there on the opposite page.

We had bible studies all through Catholic grade school, and were mightily encouraged to read it, both in school and by our parents.

I’m not sure why people look back on those times as having been so devoid of meaning for them. Perhaps that’s the real answer. The stuff was there. It just didn’t have any meaning for them, subjectively. The “how comes” probably vary.

 

[Poco]

I must say, it is interesting I came upon this thread while listening to “Catholic Answers Live” with Patrick Coffin and Fr. Mitch Pacwa discussing this very subject! Unfortunately, they didn’t seem to clear up very much for me. Admittedly, that could be because I missed hearing something they said while I was reading something here.

In any case, as much as I like Fr. Pacwa, I don’t think he ever refered to any of the “abuses” (merely percieved or otherwise) by “Rome” that Luther et.al. were claiming, such as the selling of indulgences. (Yeah, I know, “everybody brings that up” but I don’t have the time or space here to go back through all my history books, etc. …) I suppose it could be, considering the current state of priestly sex scandals, many are reluctant to bring up any prior “indisgressions”.

I wish I could join many of you (name removed by moderator)artaking of the Eucharist this Easter but, alas, it seems I didn’t get into RCIA soon enough!

 

[kempo1]

gtrenewed;6375273:

Well, I won’t slam the door.

not sure how my name got put as the poster here but i did not post this. i guess after i logged off last night this person had some fun with the posts, but this is not mine. just wanted to clarify.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

As an altar boy, I suffered punishment for not getting it right in repeating the Latin responses or doing something out of order. !

What is wrong with that?

 

[kempo1]

gtrenewed;6375273:

What is wrong with that?

i did not post this!!!

 

[Roblox84]

Sword Brethren;6378496:

gtrenewed;6375273:

i did not post this!!!

The holy spirit leads me to believe you did

 

[Sword_Brethren]

I’m sorry but I said “if”. The reason I put it that way is because when I was raised in the RCC, old time pre-vatII Baltimore catechism RCC, I was taught about following the RCC and its rituals. As an altar boy, I suffered punishment for not getting it right in repeating the Latin responses or doing something out of order. I understood getting to heaven, or at least purgatory, as being a good person and following the RCC rules. I didn’t know Jesus.

The problem was not with the Catholic Church but with you.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

I’m sorry but I said “if”. The reason I put it that way is because when I was raised in the RCC, old time pre-vatII Baltimore catechism RCC, I was taught about following the RCC and its rituals. As an altar boy, I suffered punishment for not getting it right in repeating the Latin responses or doing something out of order. !

What is wrong with that?

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Sword Brethren;6378496:

gtrenewed;6375273:

i did not post this!!!

Sorry my mistake.

 

[Roblox84]

What is wrong with that?

I don’t know what’s wrong with that either. I got punished by a priest once for wearing a ring or necklace that was a silver skull.(I just thought it looked cool)

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Sword Brethren;6378496:

gtrenewed;6375273:

i did not post this!!!

Sorry my mistake.

 

[kempo1]

kempo1;6378502:

Sword Brethren;6378496:

The holy spirit leads me to believe you did

my friend in Christ i dont want to be rude but I DID NOT POST THIS LAST NIGHT, i logged off and greenwood or whatever his name is posted this i dont know how my name is attatched to this and i wont explain it anymore. i have no complaints on the HOLY MOTHER CHURCH that i was raised in.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Roblox84;6378507:

kempo1;6378502:

my friend in Christ i dont want to be rude but I DID NOT POST THIS LAST NIGHT, i logged off and greenwood or whatever his name is posted this i dont know how my name is attatched to this and i wont explain it anymore. i have no complaints on the HOLY MOTHER CHURCH that i was raised in.

Sorry kempo1, my mistake. I made a mistake in editing. I deleted the post.

 

[kempo1]

kempo1;6378546:

Roblox84;6378507:

Sorry kempo1, my mistake. I made a mistake in editing. I deleted the post.

not a problem, thank you!!!

 

[Roblox84]

Roblox84;6378507:

kempo1;6378502:

my friend in Christ i dont want to be rude but I DID NOT POST THIS LAST NIGHT, i logged off and greenwood or whatever his name is posted this i dont know how my name is attatched to this and i wont explain it anymore. i have no complaints on the HOLY MOTHER CHURCH that i was raised in.

Aahh, i’m just giving you a hard time. I think someone might have gone on this site from your computer maybe thinking they were logged in as themselves or something.

 

[aspirant]

I don’t know what’s wrong with that either. I got punished by a priest once for wearing a ring or necklace that was a silver skull.(I just thought it looked cool)

Next time say “Memento Mori.” There’s a reason why the saints are often depicted with skulls!

I’m thinking this priest might be very uncomfortable visiting the Capuchin Crypt in Rome.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t recall thought the Church teaching the RCC is the only true Church. I thought as long as they are all in communion with Rome and have all of the valid Sacraments we were all in communion with eachother?

Most Westerners don’t realize there are non-Roman Rites in communion with the successor of Peter.

During the middle ages, when Europe was separated from the East by war and other influences, the Latin Rite functioned autonomously as if it were the only Rite left. From that period, most official documents refer to the Church as the Holy Roman Church.

European Protestants equat Catholicism with “Roman”, partly as an insult, and partly because they don’t know any better.

As far as valid sacraments, yes, the Orthodox are recognized as having valid Apostolic Succession,a nd valid sacraments, but they are NOT in communion with the successor fo Peter.

 

[Roblox84]

Next time say “Memento Mori.” There’s a reason why the saints are often depicted with skulls!

I’m thinking this priest might be very uncomfortable visiting the Capuchin Crypt in Rome.

Oh man, this was a priest from my private school in Poland. A lot of Polish people, especially priests are very serious about the Catholic faith. I mean, I was terrified of this guy. You definately don’t want to do anything to make them upset.

Another frightening story for you. I lived in Canada for the first half of my life and during mass at a Polish Catholic Church I shared the Eucharist with my younger brother (i put it in my pocket or kept it in my cheek) thinking that i’m just sharing the body of Christ with him. He obviously looked way to young to have had his first communion because seconds later a nun comes to my pew and tells me that I am summoned to the altar by the Priest. I about took a **** in my pants. She saw me give the bread to my brother and told the priest right away. I had to get up in front of the whole congregation (huge cathedral church with balconies and hundreds of people). I don’t remember what he said, but I will never forget the fear of those day’s in my entire life.

 

[guanophore]

 I take from what meager knowledge I have of the early Church, that the patriarchates were equal.

Even if I were to decide to move to a Church that is in apostolic succession, there is still the chance that I have not found the one true Church.

Jon

What do you think of the early testimony about the primacy of the Roman patriarchy?

“Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church” (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189]).

“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the succession of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church [of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid., 3, 3, 2).

“The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the letter to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]. To him succeeded Anacletus, and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the apostles and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. … To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded . . . and now, in the twelfth place after the apostles, the lot of the episcopate [of Rome] has fallen to Eleutherius. In this order, and by the teaching of the apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us” (ibid., 3, 3, 3).

Here is some more.

 

[guanophore]

No corruption did not cause the split. The pride of priests like Wycliffe, Hus, Luther, Knox, Muntzer, caused the split.

Let’s be fair, Sword, there was corruption, pride, and disobedience on both sides. Men are always in need of reform.

The problem lay in attempting to reform the doctrines. There was nothing wrong with the Teaching of the Apostles that was deposited in the Church. The fact that some did not adhere to it did not make it wrong.