Opinions on the Reformation

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I’m confused as to what Protestants think when they say that the Church of Jesus is not “institutional” or “denominational” What do you mean by this? What is wrong with an institution? To me, an institution is nothing more than a body of persons with leaders among those persons. Please point out to me an institution that does not have leaders of some sort. There is no such thing as a large group of people under one cause, so to speak, that does not have people in charge. If you don’t see an “institution” forming in the New Testament, then I think you need to re-read the whole thing. For example, why does Paul claim authority over people? He says that “he” (or “we” sometimes) has the authority to order the nascent churches to do this or that and to believe this or that. And he does not claim that he has this authority because he knows the Bible really, really well, or went to Bible school or that the scriptures say this or that. He says he has authority over them because it has been given him by God. Do you believe this? Yea or nay? And then there’s the “the Church is not ‘denominational’” nonsense. Again, what is this supposed to mean? First of all, The Catholic Church is NOT a denomination of Christianity. It IS Christianity. The Protestant “churches” are the ones who are denominational. Why? Simple. They all believe different things. They hold different sets of beliefs and have different practices. This is exactly what denominationalism (is that a word?) is. You’re right, the Church isn’t denominational. It’s only when heretics split off and start teaching their own beliefs that there is denominationalism. Christianity is not a denomination of anything. It is a religion. Do you call us a “denomination” because we have a set of beliefs? OK. We certainly do have a set of beliefs. It’s called the Teachings of the Apostles, aka the Gospel. The difference is that all of our beliefs are correct, whereas Protestants’ beliefs are sometimes correct and other times false. Do you not have a set of distinct beliefs? Show me some organization that doesn’t have some set of beliefs. If they’re not all explicit, then they’re certainly implicit.
I would very much like an answer to this. Just like you said, even in any corporation, school, charity, etc… you have a head or a leader. Everything in life has a given leader, even the household family. So if protestants don’t believe in having a single unified leader then why do they believe in having a leader in anything else in life. This makes completely no sense what so ever. Its very hard to get an answer to something like this because there is no defense to this even using bible verses as ammo. Just like the guy Josiah before said, protestants don’t look at the church as an institution with authority. Well just because I can’t see a mile down the road that doesn’t mean nothing is there.
 
I’m confused as to what Protestants think when they say that the Church of Jesus is not “institutional” or “denominational” What do you mean by this? What is wrong with an institution? To me, an institution is nothing more than a body of persons with leaders among those persons. Please point out to me an institution that does not have leaders of some sort. There is no such thing as a large group of people under one cause, so to speak, that does not have people in charge. If you don’t see an “institution” forming in the New Testament, then I think you need to re-read the whole thing. For example, why does Paul claim authority over people? He says that “he” (or “we” sometimes) has the authority to order the nascent churches to do this or that and to believe this or that. And he does not claim that he has this authority because he knows the Bible really, really well, or went to Bible school or that the scriptures say this or that. He says he has authority over them because it has been given him by God. Do you believe this? Yea or nay? And then there’s the “the Church is not ‘denominational’” nonsense. Again, what is this supposed to mean? First of all, The Catholic Church is NOT a denomination of Christianity. It IS Christianity. The Protestant “churches” are the ones who are denominational. Why? Simple. They all believe different things. They hold different sets of beliefs and have different practices. This is exactly what denominationalism (is that a word?) is. You’re right, the Church isn’t denominational. It’s only when heretics split off and start teaching their own beliefs that there is denominationalism. Christianity is not a denomination of anything. It is a religion. Do you call us a “denomination” because we have a set of beliefs? OK. We certainly do have a set of beliefs. It’s called the Teachings of the Apostles, aka the Gospel. The difference is that all of our beliefs are correct, whereas Protestants’ beliefs are sometimes correct and other times false. Do you not have a set of distinct beliefs? Show me some organization that doesn’t have some set of beliefs. If they’re not all explicit, then they’re certainly implicit.
Please answer Jon’s question.
 
The Church is both an institution and the Communion of Saints. Why does this seem like some contradiction? It is a divine institution that is the Communion of Saints, as opposed to other institutions that are not the Communion of Saints, like a labor union, or the Red Cross, or your local credit union. All of this argumentation from the Protestants is nothing more than their trying to: 1. rationalize and justify their very existence, 2. deal with the scandal of denominationalism, and 3. square in their minds denominationalism and the Holy Scriptures, most of all the parts regarding schisms (needless to say, it does not have a high opinion of schisms and schismatics) and of “being of one mind” and so on.
 
Please answer Jon’s question.
Which one, this one?:

Even if we take western non-catholics out of the equation for a moment, which is the original Church? Rome? According to the early councils, the Bishop of Rome’s jurisdiction is of the West.

Why should we accept that the other patriarchates are not the original Church and Rome is?

The original Church is the Catholic Church. It’s visible head is the Pope, the bishop of Rome, the successor of Peter. So, if you like, it is “headquartered” in Rome, like the U.S. government is headquartered in Washington, DC. The Bishop of Rome’s jurisdiction is the earth. All the other patriarchates are part of the original Church if they accept the jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome, that is, if they accept that the Bishop of Rome has final authority over them. Jesus founded His Church on Peter, not on Peter, Matthew, Bartholomew, James and the other James, John, etc.
 
Even if they thought they left for legitimate reasons then this would still be inline with all the false doctrines, right? They left and started teaching their own stuff, at least that’s how I look at it. And if they were never part of the Original Church then they must have not been Christians because the teachings were taught by the Apostles were to the people that were in that particular place of worship. So if those people never heard what was being taught by the Apostles and were teaching their own way’s of Jesus worship, then their faith is invalid.
No, that’s not quite right. There was no other Church than the Catholic Church for at least the several first centuries. Some groups got cut off from Rome due to various factors, but others disagreed with Rome over authority issues and left. All who claim Christ and believe in the Trinity are Christians. They are our separated brethren but are in imperfect union with the Church because they were baptized with the same baptism–the trinitarian form, and meant want the Church does by baptizing.
This is my biggest issue. Ive talked to protestants and I tell them about Luther and how he is the founder of protestants, but all I get is a response like “my belief is founded by the bible” or something of that nature. I really don’t know what to say to a comment like that because these people don’t even know how they came to be, it’s like a complete disregard for history (or ignorance). I mean how can you tell someone something when they actually believe that no such reformation happened and even if it was called the Protestant reformation, it just doesn’t include them because they must have been worshiping like that because God told them to. It’s like talking to a 3rd grader.
Well, when people have been brought up all their lives in a Protestant denomination they generally know nothing else. There are some who take a stab at Church history, but with the preconceived idea that they can prove the Church wrong–so they find anything they think will support their views and tout those above and to the exclusion of any evidence that shows they are wrong. I caulk this up to self-defense. After all, most people don’t want to tear up the whole fabric of their lives and start over–or at least that’s what they think they will have to do to admit the Church is the true Church. The fact is most of what they believe is perfectly sound. In my experience it all comes down to authority for them. They just don’t want to bow to Rome.
 
RobLox84, your original question was Opinions on the Reformation, then you shift to doctrines and then to how to worship, you are making great leaps here.

1 - for over 100 years prior to Luther, the tradition of selling indulgences was used by the religious powerful to redistribute wealth from the poor to the rich and powerful. Their answer to inner reform was to burn Hus and excommunicate Luther.
There is much more but this is the heart of the matter – the rich and powerful were exploiting the poor and ignorant (they kept Scripture from them).

2 - Well, a light was shone onto the abuse of indulgences. Was indulgences taught by the apostles? Or did it become tradition at a later date? Since both the pope and the Holy Roman Emperor along with various cardinals took advantage of the “income”, how was reform going to happen. Hus was burned at the stake, Luther was excommunicated and the plan was to assassinate him but he was saved by a benefactor.

What was Luther to do? He loved God, found salvation by faith in Jesus according to the apostles teaching found in the Bible. He discovered that salvation was not the RCC but Jesus and Jesus was available to all who would believe, even to those who were unjustly thrown out of the RCC. It would have been better to try to bring about change in the church even though he was excommunicated but that would have taken a miracle. A counter inner-reformation did finally happen, a little too late.

3 - So, you preach Jesus and worship Him as you are led by the Holy Spirit.

My question would be, why can’t RC’s take the blame for the abuses? Oh, you weren’t born then, so, if that applies to you why can’t it apply to others. they just worship as they understand to from the Scriptures - the one true remaining teaching by the apostle’s that all can say is God’s Word.

Don’t mistake conformity for unity. We have unity in Jesus, if not conformity in liturgy. Jesus did not institute the Latin Mass, that came about as tradition, and about 40 years ago the tradition was changed. Claiming 2000 years of being the same is not accurate. Traditions change but the Word of God remains. So using the Scripture as a base for worship is quite legitimate.

So, that is my understanding of the reformation.
 
Here’s my opinion of the Reformation: it stinks!

It is not a reformation of anything at all, it is a revolt and is completely scandalous. If Luther and his cronies hadn’t rebelled, I am convinced there would have been no need for a 2010. The Kingdom would have already come in its fullness. Did you forget, Gtrenewed, that Jesus said that His followers should be one and He and the Father are One God (if that’s not a call to unity in everything, then nothing is) so that the world may believe that the Father sent Him? Your beliefs are nonbiblical! 😉
 
This issue makes me remain very, very confused. We all agree that up until the reformation there was only one church teaching one thing. We then all agree that that Church became later known as the Catholic Church.

So when the bible speaks about denominations forming and speaking of false doctrines how is this placed upon the original church since that church was already there and were teaching only the doctrine that was taught by the Apostles? I may have a hard time seeing it in another way but if the Catholic Church remained unchanged for 2000 years and all of a sudden protestant churches spring up everywhere by the dozen, wouldn’t that be considered what the bible talked about a teaching of false doctrines? Some protestants tell me that what if it was them that were the original church and the catholics split off into their own sect, which seems kinda silly.

And also I don’t want to hear that God made it happen because nowhere in the bible did God say anything about Luther reforming the church, so I just won’t buy that.
The Reformation was a revolution, and not one revolution has ever happened in a vacuum. The American Revolution occurred because the colonialists had grievances. The French revolution happened because the peasants and the ordinary people had genuine grievanes. The Russian Revolution ditto; Mao’s China the same and so on.

The Reformation occurred for several reasons. The first was widespread corruption in the church, most probably above all. Then there was the issue of indulgences, used for fund raising. There was also the new spirit of inquiry engendered by the Renaissance, and the Nobility were jealous of the Church’s wealth, while at the same time the rising mercantile class were making inroads into the aristrocrats’ wealth.

There was a reason for it. Now I believe Martin Luther was the man chosen for the role of “reforming” the church, but I think God meant him to die a martyr as a result of the second trial, for which he was heading when he was “kidnapped” and taken to the Wartburg. From then on it became political, with violence and equally violent polemic to match. Of course when tempers are as frayed as they were then, in a religious context, the next thing that is going to happen is name-calling, such as the Pope being anti-Christ. Of course the Catholic side were saying the same thing about Luther.

And this has gone on to the present day.

Now, I have my own theory on Luther. I think he’s the False Prophet of Revelation fame, a man who was supposed to die a martyr, but refused, and instead called on millions of others to become martyrs instead, while he himself took political refuge with a couple of mercenary and quite ruthless German princes. He had no problem with calling for the slaughter of peasants and Catholic religious alike. As a result the population of Germany, according to the Protestant William Shirer, declined over the next century from 16 million to about 6 million.

Were there any positives? I think there were two - the first was the development of democracy, and the other was the de-mythologisatoin of the Bible. Whether we like it or not, the Protestants easily made the greatest inroads into Biblical scholarship, with the Caholic Church taking centuries to even take the step of encouraging lay people to read the Bible (one of the reasons I haven’t got much time for the “infallibility” doctrine).

Secondly, whether we like it or not, it was the English speaking Protestant peoples who most championed the development of democracy. Now I don’t know fully if this was due entirely to Protestant freedom to speak your own mind, or an outcome of British mentality, or a bit of both. It took a lot longer for the Latin, Catholic races to participate. Protestant North America, for all it’s faults, was a very long way ahead of it’s Southern Catholic cousins in Mexico and further south. As recently as the 1950’s and 1960’s,
Catholic Spain was a dictatorship.

Therefore the two positive developments which came out of the Reformation, for all its savage violence, were a more rapid development of democracy, and greater Biblical scholarship.

Russia had a delayed introduction into the modern world with it’s revolution in 1917. Russia never had a Reformation. It was therefore still feudal in outlook and practice in the early 20th century.

Those are the positives. The name calling and the idiotic polemic which still goes on today in some Protestant circles owes its origin to the violence and polemic of the Reformation, which in my old pastor’s words, was “easily the most violent event in the history of the church.” I would say the death toll in the wars of the Reformation well exceeded the total of the Crusades, waged against an external enemy.

Hence I think Luther is the “false prophet”, yet paradoxically his rebellion hastened both democracy and Biblical scholarship.
 
Excuse me, I’m going to go watch the Red Green show and Doctor Who. I really like to watch them on Friday nights. Although our local PBS station seems to be replaying older seasons that I’ve already seen, instead of the more recent ones. Though I really enjoy watching David Tennant, he’s the best! 👍
 
Yes, indeed, Bob, God can draw good out of everything, because He’s God. I agree that Luther was a false prophet but I would never say he was a little-a antichrist, because to my knowledge he never believed or taught that Jesus was not the Christ, the Son of the Living God. He just should have been faithful to his Augustinian vows and to the Church he once believed in.
 
What was Luther to do? He loved God, found salvation by faith in Jesus according to the apostles teaching found in the Bible. He discovered that salvation was not the RCC but Jesus and Jesus was available to all who would believe, even to those who were unjustly thrown out of the RCC. It would have been better to try to bring about change in the church even though he was excommunicated but that would have taken a miracle. A counter inner-reformation did finally happen, a little too late…
I just don’t believe his motives and never will. Sure one can say he loves God and found salvation through Jesus without the church, but why should anyone believe that? Because on the outside he seemed like a loving, faithful, caring person? There is alway’s another deeper motive behind it all.

And Gods word indeed does change or gets lost, hence we have catholic bibles, protestant bibles, masonic bibles, etc…
 
Yes, indeed, Bob, God can draw good out of everything, because He’s God. I agree that Luther was a false prophet but I would never say he was a little-a antichrist, because to my knowledge he never believed or taught that Jesus was not the Christ, the Son of the Living God. He just should have been faithful to his Augustinian vows and to the Church he once believed in.
Yeah I guess sadly this is what it had to come to. I know the reformation brought good as well as evil, but in the end it is the evil that sadly prevailed. I guess God will have to do much more work to get everybody together again. And i’m not so sure that will happen.
 
I just don’t believe his motives and never will. Sure one can say he loves God and found salvation through Jesus without the church, but why should anyone believe that? Because on the outside he seemed like a loving, faithful, caring person? There is alway’s another deeper motive behind it all.

And Gods word indeed does change or gets lost, hence we have catholic bibles, protestant bibles, masonic bibles, etc…
I believe what the Catholic Church has said about Luther’s motives.

As mentioned in this obituary for Pope John Paul II, the Holy Father praised Luther during the commemoration of Luther’s 500th birthday in November, 1983:

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C01E3DE1E3FF930A35757C0A9639C8B63&pagewanted=10

The Holy Father’s praise echoed a joint Lutheran-Catholic statement released earlier in 1983 to commemorate the 500th anniversary of his birthday, which quoted Cardinal Willebrands:

pro.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_luther.html

“Who … would still deny that Martin Luther was a deeply religious person who with honesty and dedication sought for the message of the gospel? Who would deny that in spite of the fact that he fought against the Roman Catholic Church and the Apostolic See � and for the sake of truth one must not remain silent about this � he retained a considerable part of the old Catholic faith? Indeed, is it not true that the Second Vatican Council has even implemented requests that were first expressed by Martin Luther, among others, and as a result of which many aspects of Christian faith and life now find better expression than they did before? To be able to say this in spite of all the differences is a reason for great joy and much hope.”
 
I think the Reformation primarily occurred because some mostly well-meaning people got so caught up in late-medieval philosophy that they became incapable of rightly understanding and accepting the whole Gospel of Jesus Christ. 😦
 
Well, I don’t agree that the church was only one church before the Reformation. One has to consider throughout the history of Christianity there have been fierce debates and disagreements on various issues. Before the Reformation there was the great schism between the Roman Catholic Church in the West and the Orthodox Churches in the East, and both churches developed theological ideas and spiritualities that were quite different. Even today many Orthodox would view a reunification with the Western Catholic Church with horror or at least with many reservations because of the considerable differences that have developed in the centuries since the schism. Even in the Catholic Church itself, we only have to look at the controversies from Gnosticism to Arianism to Pelagianism and the problems that developed in the Middle Ages to see the history of the church has never been a smooth ride in any era.

I prefer to think there is one major world religion (Christianity) and as with other great religions like Buddhism and Christianity, the religion has fragmented into different schools and sects with their own take on the foundational teachings, organisational structure, etc. In this light the existence of diverse churches in Christianity is a normal development and in my view no Church should try to impose a uniform and codified set of beliefs and practices on 3 billion different Christians.
 
It was a great idea but didn’t go to its natural end. The Reformers like Luther did have the right idea leave the monopoly of the Roman Catholic Church, translate the Bible so the comman person can read it and mass print these so they were affordable and let God back into the faith instead of gatekeepers in the way.

The bad thing is they adopted the same tired ideas that there has to be a human between the person and God, a gatekeeper. Swapping priest for pastor, Lutheran or other councils for the Pope and dictating what God wants is just recreating the former system they left just light. Its Roman Catholicism - lighter. Not true Reforming of the faith so I feel it failed partially at going where it should have gone.

Instead of saying. I gave you the Word of God in German ,talking about Luther, so now read it and communicate with God without anyone interfering no more menbetween you and God. That would have been truly a Reformation to the end it has to reach the end of the systems as we have known them for a simple faith that puts God first.
 
I think the Reformation was a necessity because of the corruption that was prevailing in the Roman Catholic Church. Sadly, the reform eventually led to division, which we have today.
 
For the sake of discussion, let’s say the Church is an institution, and not the communion of saints.
Even if we take western non-catholics out of the equation for a moment, which is the original Church? Rome? According to the early councils, the Bishop of Rome’s jurisdiction is of the West.

Why should we accept that the other patriarchates are not the original Church and Rome is?

Jon
Good question…

THEN there would be the whole issue of why the “successors” of ONE of those Patriarchs is “INFALLIBLE” and thus incapable of reform?

Here’s what I posted earlier…
It’s extremely difficult to discuss this with you. You are imposing a denominational/institutional paradigm that Protestants do not use - thus there is going to be lots of “talking past” each other…
Friend, it is my position that the church is not (and never was) a denominational, institutional, geopolitical, entity. It is my position that Christians have always been, still are, and ever will be PEOPLE. Thus, the communion of Christians is PEOPLE. The mystical union of Christians is PEOPLE. The assembly of Christians is PEOPLE. To Protestants, the church is Christians - past and present, spread out over all the centuries and continents. Christianity is not an institutional IT.
Friend, you are assuming MUCH. That Jesus founded a denomination - we don’t agree.
That Jesus promised that THAT denomination - solely, exclusively, perpetually - would be infallible and unaccountable - we think not.
Friend, your denomination requires that you docilicly accept whatever it and it itself exclusively says as correct - and I suspect you do. We don’t share that epistemology, we embrace accountability.
Friend, you assume that your denomination has existed since 30 AD, and we see zero substantiation for that. You assume that your denomination has not changed the corpus of its beliefs, and we don’t agree.
As I read the Bible, God has always taught and lead His people: from Adam and Eve in the Garden to today. But I don’t agree that ergo all are infallible students and followers. In fact, the story of Scripture is the story of His people doing WRONG, and God’s Law calling them to repentance and His Grace forgiving and restoring. God often did this through reformers (I’m named for one of them). Luther is probably the most conservative of all these (his horrible polemic aside - such was the nature of the day), and he is often faulted to genuinely believing that what was on his heart (and it seems millions of others) could be sincerely and opening discussed, and that reform was possible. What he learned (and should have always known, critics note) is that one who claims to be INCAPABLE of error is INCAPABLE of reform. I’m sad all this turned out as it did. I’d sad The Catholic Church excommunicated Luther and split itself yet again. I’m not sure it was avoidable, it’s the only alternative when reform is impossible.
.
 
You are beginning from a false premis. Your quote here:
We all agree that up until the reformation there was only one church teaching one thing.
isn’t really the case. There were quite a number of heretical groups. THere were the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches, and various others. As well, as a whole the Early Church was much more decentralized, though I’m not sure if that applies to what you are thinking about.

And the “Protestant Reformation” wasn’t really - there were a series of reformation movements that had different theological and political reasons behind them.
We then all agree that that Church became later known as the Catholic Church.
Well, that is one interpretation. Another way of looking at it is that the divisions in the Church are rather like dividing perennials, or amoebas. If I take one plant from my garden and split it in two, which one is the “original” plant? Both share a history until the moment of the split, and then they become separate. Neither is really what it was before. The idea that they suddenly appeared from nothing is a bit silly.
 
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