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vskipper

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I am a Muslim and as such my Muslim name is Abdullah Fathi.

I am here upon recommendation of a gentlemen I discoursed with via the Gawaher Islamic site. We were discussing Islam and the Qur’an in particular.

As I explained to him I am more than open to discussion and will gladly hear out objections and arguments against Islam or the Qur’an although I have found two thirds of the arguments to be out of sheer ignorance than actual logic. (it might be prudent to the discussion to add that I was not born a Muslim or raised one but actually was raised Christian in the Bible belt of the states and was a near militant Christian in believes before coming to Islam)

I do not consider myself a Christian by any means anymore but rather a devout Muslim but as being reasonable I allow for others to try to show me how Islam is wrong by whichever means they like. I have done this several times and those that were not made out of sheer ignorance, few, I found to be lacking after further self research upon the subject.

Naturally while I will try to refrain from interjecting too much as I do not want to discourage any possible arguments (in the classical debate sense of the term) being presented it might be necessary for time to time for me to perhaps state a comment or question relating to what has been said as time allows.

To those that choose to do this regardless of reason I thank you as I realize that it is most likely out of the best of intentions. For those that I do not I understand, hakuna matata
 
Welcome. I don’t know enough about Islam to pose any thoughts or questions. I would have a hard time conceiving of a Christian leaving behind Christ, Lord and Savior and Messiah. One of those things I will never comprehend!
 
I know what you mean, I have difficulty understanding or even wrapping my head around the concept of atheism. I tried it for about a week, didn’t have enough faith to believe that there is nothing to believe in

Thank you for your welcome
 
vskipper said:
I know what you mean, I have difficulty understanding or even wrapping my head around the concept of atheism. I tried it for about a week, didn’t have enough faith to believe that there is nothing to believe in

Thank you for your welcome
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Ah well, I was a right and proper nihilist. No faith required.

I do have the same problem with Islam as I did with Mormonism, both have a man who claimed to be a prophet and both produced their own “scripture”. Your post reminds me of Mormons, who’s belief is in one man and one book. When you see through both, faith in the man and his book, is impossible.
 
Interesting take on the material.

I would respectfully disagree with the analogy but I reckon that is to be expected.

My faith is not in the man but in the message. The message seems to continually stand up to the inquiries, and proves itself time and again in various ways that are obvious rather than obscure. Thus far, in my spiritual journey for truth, I have yet to find anything that discredits Muhammad (s.a.w.) or the Qur’an.
 
That is the same thing that Mormons say!

🙂

I would think the glaring evidence of error is a rejection of Jesus Christ. I couldn’t set Him to the side, for any man or book.
 
a) Joseph Smith said that he would be the Muhammad of America
b) I can list the miracles of the Qur’an right here
c) One of the prophecies of the prophet is coming true right now. It was in the news not a few days ago, the alliance between Iran, Egypt & Syria. Right now it is just Egypt and Iran talking but Syria will join.
d) Islam does not reject Jesus (pbuh) and any Muslim that says we do is not a Muslim. We believe him to be the messiah but not the literal son of God.
 
vskipper said:
a) Joseph Smith said that he would be the Muhammad of America
b) I can list the miracles of the Qur’an right here
c) One of the prophecies of the prophet is coming true right now. It was in the news not a few days ago, the alliance between Iran, Egypt & Syria. Right now it is just Egypt and Iran talking but Syria will join.
d) Islam does not reject Jesus (pbuh) and any Muslim that says we do is not a Muslim. We believe him to be the messiah but not the literal son of God.
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Then you have rejected Jesus.

You know, Mormons have prophecies that they say are being fulfilled RIGHT NOW. It is convincing, for believers. Time bears things out, and shows the wishful thinking.

I don’t hold a belief that miracles only occur for Catholics. 🙂 God is Good.

May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
 
vskipper said:
I am a Muslim and as such my Muslim name is Abdullah Fathi.

I am here upon recommendation of a gentlemen I discoursed with via the Gawaher Islamic site. We were discussing Islam and the Qur’an in particular.

As I explained to him I am more than open to discussion and will gladly hear out objections and arguments against Islam or the Qur’an although I have found two thirds of the arguments to be out of sheer ignorance than actual logic. (it might be prudent to the discussion to add that I was not born a Muslim or raised one but actually was raised Christian in the Bible belt of the states and was a near militant Christian in believes before coming to Islam)

I do not consider myself a Christian by any means anymore but rather a devout Muslim but as being reasonable I allow for others to try to show me how Islam is wrong by whichever means they like. I have done this several times and those that were not made out of sheer ignorance, few, I found to be lacking after further self research upon the subject.

Naturally while I will try to refrain from interjecting too much as I do not want to discourage any possible arguments (in the classical debate sense of the term) being presented it might be necessary for time to time for me to perhaps state a comment or question relating to what has been said as time allows.

To those that choose to do this regardless of reason I thank you as I realize that it is most likely out of the best of intentions. For those that I do not I understand, hakuna matata
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I admire and respect how you allow yourself to be tested. I pray that God shall teach me such patience and humility in the face of adversity.

If there is something which I admire about the Muslim faith, it is the respect of Mary, the mother of Jesus. As I recall, she is the woman of first respect followed by Fatima, daughter of Muhammad? Yes?
I think it is something you hold in common with catholics. We believe that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is a worthy woman to try to emulate in her humility before God. Fatima is also a name not unknown to catholics, although it is because we believe that Mary, the mother of Jesus appeared to children in a little town in Portugal called Fatima. Do you have any good information on Fatima, Mohammad’s daughter and why Muslims respect her other than her parentage?
 
Perhaps the simplest answer to what you inquire is that she was the closest to the prophet in her way of approaching things. She was sincerely devout, incredibly charismatic and deeply sincere in her love and worship of God.

al-islam.org/gracious/42.htm

Also you might want to look into the song Lady Mary by Kareem Salama. I know my wife loves it (and she is Catholic)
 
I think that Ravi Zacharias International Ministries would be a helpful resource, as he–an Indian raised Hindu–engages world religions and philosophies from a Christian perspective.

One thing I would note is that while Christianity revolves around one Person, who is Jesus, it is not a faith that we believe was received by or transmitted by one person. A key aspect of the Christian testimony is the plurality of witnesses to the faith–to the aggregation of the books deemed inspired by God, to Christ’s work and resurrection, to the works of the Apostles, to the establishment of the early Church and so on and so forth. Thus, all the weight of our faith does not bear upon the testimony of one prophet. Rather, we stand on the testimony of dozens of the faithful who sounded with one voice in proclaiming the truth of what they had seen and heard.

Miracles, as it was shown above, occur in a variety of places and by powers that may not be real, or may or may not be of God. When Moses encountered Jannes and Jambres in Pharaoh’s court, they were able to perform miracles as well, but not by the power of God. That is not to say that miracles cannot be a sign, but rather that they cannot be the sign of veracity, as people with mutually exclusive truth claims can produce signs of one sort or another.
 
Hey brother Abdullah I’m glad you’re here! I’m John Paul (of course you already knew that :)) from Gawaher.

You’re most welcome!
 
vskipper said:
islamreligion.com/category/34/
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I’ve always been very attracted to Islam. I can’t become a Muslima. It turns out the things that attract me to Islam are those thing Islam adopted from Christianity: like specific hours of daily prayer and prostrations. As Orthodox Christians, we do that already.

The Islamic Apologist materials can be very compelling, but what I’ve not seen addressed by Apologists for Islam are items of historical contradictions.

For example the different versions of the Quran in Arabic found in parts of the world known for their ancient Islamic roots.

Also while within the Quran, I agree that there is knowledge contained with in it that could not reasonably have come from mere human knowledge at the time of it’s writing, within the Quran itself reveals that whoever inspired it’s writing didn’t know what Christians actually believed, wrote and taught. In other words, parts of the Quran seem to come from human based on it’s lack of knowledge & other parts from non-human source(s) that had knowledge not yet “discovered” by humans.

I also can not find in the writings of the ancient secular historians and Church Fathers any hint that Christianity changed from what Jesus Christ preached. For Islam to be true, we would be able to see that in pre-7th Century history.

In addition, if I were to find answers for the above and be whole-heartedly convinced Islam is true, which of the many sects is the “right” one? What historical proof can I find to help me determine which form of Islam is authentic?
 
vskipper said:
Interesting take on the material.

I would respectfully disagree with the analogy but I reckon that is to be expected.

My faith is not in the man but in the message. The message seems to continually stand up to the inquiries, and proves itself time and again in various ways that are obvious rather than obscure. Thus far, in my spiritual journey for truth, I have yet to find anything that discredits Muhammad (s.a.w.) or the Qur’an.
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Hey Vskipper. 🙂 Just curious: what drew you away from Jesus the Christ, and His message, toward the message of Muhammad? I am assuming that you now believe that Jesus was just another prophet, nothing more?
 
vskipper said:
Perhaps the simplest answer to what you inquire is that she was the closest to the prophet in her way of approaching things. She was sincerely devout, incredibly charismatic and deeply sincere in her love and worship of God.

al-islam.org/gracious/42.htm

Also you might want to look into the song Lady Mary by Kareem Salama. I know my wife loves it (and she is Catholic)
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Muslims believe that Mary was sincerely devout, incredibly charismatic and deeply sincere in her love and worship of Jesus?:confused: That was/is who Mary worshipped/worships - Jesus, the second Person of the Trinity.
 
I would be more intrigued by the information about varying forms of the Qur’an in the Arabic as the primary arguments to any difference in Islamic takes on the Qur’an are about the English translations not the original Arabic.

One of the first things that drew me away from Christianity was the contradictions between Paul’s teachings and the teachings of Jesus, pbuh. Also, I find it rather odd that the one God would have multiple churches. Finally I began looking into Islam in order to bring it down not to join it. I found a lot of answers for puzzling questions through Islam.

A lot of Christianity had more questions than answers in it and that was not the God I read about in the Bible.
 
vskipper said:
Also, I find it rather odd that the one God would have multiple churches.
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Well, the same can be said about Islam. There are multiple Islamic sects out there.
Finally I began looking into Islam in order to bring it down not to join it.
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That will be very interesting. Which Islamic sect will you target first? 🙂
 
vskipper said:
I would be more intrigued by the information about varying forms of the Qur’an in the Arabic as the primary arguments to any difference in Islamic takes on the Qur’an are about the English translations not the original Arabic.
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youtube.com/watch?v=z8RJaJbKog4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This is a link to a short video re: the most ancient Arabic Quran in existence today. It was discovered in the 1970s and has been dated based on the art back to a very small window of time- between 705 & 715 ad. The are varing texts written over texts.
 
vskipper said:
One of the first things that drew me away from Christianity was the contradictions between Paul’s teachings and the teachings of Jesus, pbuh. Also, I find it rather odd that the one God would have multiple churches. Finally I began looking into Islam in order to bring it down not to join it. I found a lot of answers for puzzling questions through Islam.

A lot of Christianity had more questions than answers in it and that was not the God I read about in the Bible.
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Question: Muslims believe that Mary was sincerely devout, incredibly charismatic and deeply sincere in her love and worship of Jesus? That was/is who Mary worshipped/worships - Jesus, the second Person of the Trinity.

Regarding the contradictions between Paul’s teachings and the teachings of Jesus, could you provide the biblical passages? Thanks.

Someone already covered the multiple churches issue…👍
 
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