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deb1
Guest
Wow, Javelin you are too good at this. LEt me guess, you used to belong to a fundamentalist church.
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awfulthings9
Guest
Sorry for the confusion, deb1. My fault for not filling out the profile. Iām as Catholic as they come (see my other posts for verification), so Iām arguing the correctly opposite position. I just updated my profile, so try again and notice the especially Catholic birthday.
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Loboto-Me
Guest
Well I did it all wrong, but truly, I donāt have the heart for doing it right (unless in an effort to be MORE Catholic)
Iāll let you guys get on with playing devilās advocate.
Iāll let you guys get on with playing devilās advocate.
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javelin
Guest
Not at all ā born, baptised as an infant, raised and Confirmed Catholic!Wow, Javelin you are too good at this. LEt me guess, you used to belong to a fundamentalist church.
Iāve just talked about this with several people before, and can at least sympathize with their perspective, even if I totally disagree with it
.Peace,
javelin
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awfulthings9
Guest
My friend, come visit us at the non-instrumental Church of Christ that I attend. There you will truly find yourself immersed in the word of God. I will agree that many groups do take a perverse reading of Scripture and that denominationalism is sinful, but at our church, we speak where Scripture speaks and are silent where Scripture is silent. Unlike tradition, Scripture is immutable. For instance, with traditions, Catholics who ate within three hours of mass used to be guilty of mortal sin. Now, however, the ātraditionā has changed, and Catholics can eat right up until about 15 minutes before they leave for church. So, are these Catholics who lived under the old ātraditionā still guilty of mortal sin when it turns out the Church changed its mind about a man-made rule?
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Lady_Cygnus
Guest
The Bible is the basis for our faith and, since we donāt have any way of going back in time, it is all we have. It specifically warns against following Traditions of Men, so how could anyone, in good faith, believe in something like the Pope when it contradicts what is written in the Word?
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Lady_Cygnus
Guest
I think we need more protestantsā¦
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javelin
Guest
Lady Cygnus:
:yup:
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deb1
Guest
*āAll scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.ā
Traditions are an example of the legalism that Jesus spoke against. The bible is all that is needed.
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Code:
2 Timothy 3:15
Traditions are an example of the legalism that Jesus spoke against. The bible is all that is needed.
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Lady_Cyg
Guest
As a Protestant I will attempt to argue in favor of the Catholic Doctrine of following anything the Pope saysā¦
The traditions Jesus spoke against were those that directly disobeyed Godās commandments. We shouldnāt blindly follow all traditions, only those the Pope has approved.
I will attempt to argue in favor of the Catholic Doctrine of following anything the Pope saysā¦The traditions Jesus spoke against were those that directly disobeyed Godās commandments. We shouldnāt blindly follow all traditions, only those the Pope has approved.
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javelin
Guest
Welcome to the Forums, Lady Cyg! ā javelin
(back to my alter-ego)
But what makes the Pope special that we should listen to him? Besides, af the only ātraditionsā we follow are those that do not break Godās commandments, then I still only need the Bible because all His commandments are in there!
Show me where God commands everyone to abstain from meat during Lent??
Or can the Pope tell us to anything he wants that is not prohibited in the Bible?
-nilevaj
(back to my alter-ego)
But what makes the Pope special that we should listen to him? Besides, af the only ātraditionsā we follow are those that do not break Godās commandments, then I still only need the Bible because all His commandments are in there!
Show me where God commands everyone to abstain from meat during Lent??
Or can the Pope tell us to anything he wants that is not prohibited in the Bible?
-nilevaj
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Lady_Cyg
Guest
hey, nilevaj didnāt say hi! Oh well, Iām not exactly new to the Forumsā¦
The Pope is so special because he there is a direct line from the apostles till now (ignoring the many numerous branches). Since he is the only one with a Popemobile nowadays, he must be the Pope.
Well, I donāt know of a place where God tells people to abstain from meat during lent, but wasnāt there a rule about the Jews not eating pork? So it was part of the old tradition to have weird food restrictions.
I suppose the Pope can order anything that isnāt prohibited in the Bibleā¦wasnāt there a thread about dancing during the service? :dancing:
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sententia
Guest
ROTFLā¦I love that!!!
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Lady_Cygnus
Guest
Lady Cyg:
Do you know of any bible verses to back this up?? Yes, God may have commanded the Jewish people to not eat pork, but as Christians we are no longer bound by dietary laws. Check out Galatians 2:1-3!
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awfulthings9
Guest
I may have really started something strange here.
So there is a Lady Cygnus and a Lady Cyg in these forums. And on this thread one is a Catholic pretending to be a Protestant. And the other is a Protestant pretending to be a Catholic.
Wow.
So there is a Lady Cygnus and a Lady Cyg in these forums. And on this thread one is a Catholic pretending to be a Protestant. And the other is a Protestant pretending to be a Catholic.
Wow.
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Lady_Cyg
Guest
Actually one is a Catholic pretending to be a Protestant pretending to be a Catholicā¦itās not that easy.
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Lady_Cygnus
Guest
Iām sorry, I didnāt expect to kill the thread 
I really like this thread idea. Perhaps protestants would feel more comfortable with another topic, like the Pope or purgatory?
I really like this thread idea. Perhaps protestants would feel more comfortable with another topic, like the Pope or purgatory?
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Church_Militant
Guest
Okayā¦
2nd Timothy 3:16-17 says ā16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, 17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.ā
So doesnāt that mean that itās all we need for those aspects of or Christian life.
Tradition is nothing more than the traditions of men that corrupt the teachings of the Word of God. After allā¦look what Jesus said about them.
I mean look here at this passage from Matthew 15.
ā1 Then came to him from Jerusalem scribes and Pharisees, saying: 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the ancients? For they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answering, said to them: Why do you also transgress the commandment of God for your tradition? For God said: 4 Honour thy father and mother: And: He that shall curse father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But you say: Whosoever shall say to father or mother, The gift whatsoever proceedeth from me, shall profit thee. 6 And he shall not honour his father or his mother: and you have made void the commandment of God for your tradition. 7 Hypocrites, well hath Isaias prophesied of you, saying: 8 This people honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me. 9 And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men. 10 And having called together the multitudes unto him, he said to them: Hear ye and understand.ā
Isnāt that what we get when we add ātraditionsā to the Bible when all we need is the Bible. After all the Catholic traditions have set aside important things that the Bible says, like praying to the saints and confession to priests and the āreal presenceā in the Eucharist, right? And Baptising babies! I mean where is that in the Bible? Isnāt that just some tradition that the Catholic Church set in place?
If itās not in the Bible, then Christians shouldnāt believe it or do it.
Seem pretty simple to meā¦
(GAK! this reminds me of how hard C.S. Lewis said it wa s to write the Screwtape Letters! )
Pax vobiscum,
2nd Timothy 3:16-17 says ā16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, 17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.ā
So doesnāt that mean that itās all we need for those aspects of or Christian life.
Tradition is nothing more than the traditions of men that corrupt the teachings of the Word of God. After allā¦look what Jesus said about them.
I mean look here at this passage from Matthew 15.
ā1 Then came to him from Jerusalem scribes and Pharisees, saying: 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the ancients? For they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answering, said to them: Why do you also transgress the commandment of God for your tradition? For God said: 4 Honour thy father and mother: And: He that shall curse father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But you say: Whosoever shall say to father or mother, The gift whatsoever proceedeth from me, shall profit thee. 6 And he shall not honour his father or his mother: and you have made void the commandment of God for your tradition. 7 Hypocrites, well hath Isaias prophesied of you, saying: 8 This people honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me. 9 And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men. 10 And having called together the multitudes unto him, he said to them: Hear ye and understand.ā
Isnāt that what we get when we add ātraditionsā to the Bible when all we need is the Bible. After all the Catholic traditions have set aside important things that the Bible says, like praying to the saints and confession to priests and the āreal presenceā in the Eucharist, right? And Baptising babies! I mean where is that in the Bible? Isnāt that just some tradition that the Catholic Church set in place?
If itās not in the Bible, then Christians shouldnāt believe it or do it.
Seem pretty simple to meā¦
(GAK! this reminds me of how hard C.S. Lewis said it wa s to write the Screwtape Letters!
)Pax vobiscum,
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RyanL
Guest
Amen, Church Militant! Preach the Word!
One need look only so far as the doctrines of āexcess meritā or āsupererogationā or even āindulgencesā to see how rapidly a community divorced from the Word of God will go astray. Have you ever heard of anything more unbiblical?
You see, the Word of God is that which is theopneustos, or God-breathed. As such, it is unique. It alone is God-breathed, written by the Divine hand through human servants, and contains all that God desired to reveal to His chosen people. Being that it is unique, it is fitting that we would attach the word āaloneā to it. The Bible alone is the sure Word from God, which we must look to in order to āguide our stepsā.
This is not a rejection of tradition. That is silly, and is a mimicking of what Sola Scriptura teaches.
This *is *an assertion that any tradition must be measured against the Word of God, and if it contradicts the plain teachings of Scripture it must be rejected.
Sola Scriptura is the normative condition of the New Testament church, and therefore cannot be expected to be found in the recorded history of the Apostolic Age (i.e., the New Testament itself). However, the plain teaching is that this is the normative condition for Christās church. This is how 1 Tim 3:16 can say what it does. This is how Christ can show us through His example how we are to turn to the Scriptures to rebuke sinners.
God Bless,
RyanL
One need look only so far as the doctrines of āexcess meritā or āsupererogationā or even āindulgencesā to see how rapidly a community divorced from the Word of God will go astray. Have you ever heard of anything more unbiblical?
You see, the Word of God is that which is theopneustos, or God-breathed. As such, it is unique. It alone is God-breathed, written by the Divine hand through human servants, and contains all that God desired to reveal to His chosen people. Being that it is unique, it is fitting that we would attach the word āaloneā to it. The Bible alone is the sure Word from God, which we must look to in order to āguide our stepsā.
This is not a rejection of tradition. That is silly, and is a mimicking of what Sola Scriptura teaches.
This *is *an assertion that any tradition must be measured against the Word of God, and if it contradicts the plain teachings of Scripture it must be rejected.
Sola Scriptura is the normative condition of the New Testament church, and therefore cannot be expected to be found in the recorded history of the Apostolic Age (i.e., the New Testament itself). However, the plain teaching is that this is the normative condition for Christās church. This is how 1 Tim 3:16 can say what it does. This is how Christ can show us through His example how we are to turn to the Scriptures to rebuke sinners.
God Bless,
RyanL
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trumpet152
Guest
Note: I am a Protestant who wishes to be Catholic. I believe in Catholicism, therefore I will argue for the Portestant side.
Good post so far. May also show that Jesus himself relied on scripture as an authority. When tempted by Satan, he quoted scripture every time. (Amazingly enough, he quotes Deuteronomy all three times. I wonder where we would be if our spiritual walk was dependant on our knowledge of Deuteronomy.)
Allow me to also point out a wonderful part Psalm 19. For the first 6 verses, it shows God through nature. The name of God used here is El. From verse 7 on, we see God revealed as YHWH, a personal and holy name. No longer is a vague name used. God shows us exactly who he is. And how does God reveal this name to us? Through a Church? Through Tradition? Through the authority of the seat of Moses? Read verse seven. āThe law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul.ā David uses the scripture available to him at that time, the law.
Some Church Fathers:
Irenaeus of Lyons: (Against Heresies 3,1) āThe apostles at that time first preached the Gospel but later by the will of God, they delivered it to us in the Scriptures, that it might be the foundation and pillar of our faith.ā
Augustine: (On the Good of Widowhood, 2) āHoly Scripture fixes the rule for our doctrine, lest we dare to be wiser than we ought.ā
Athanasius: (Against the Heathen, 1:1) āThe Holy and Inspired Scriptures are sufficient of themselves for the preaching of the Truth.ā
Good post so far. May also show that Jesus himself relied on scripture as an authority. When tempted by Satan, he quoted scripture every time. (Amazingly enough, he quotes Deuteronomy all three times. I wonder where we would be if our spiritual walk was dependant on our knowledge of Deuteronomy.)
Allow me to also point out a wonderful part Psalm 19. For the first 6 verses, it shows God through nature. The name of God used here is El. From verse 7 on, we see God revealed as YHWH, a personal and holy name. No longer is a vague name used. God shows us exactly who he is. And how does God reveal this name to us? Through a Church? Through Tradition? Through the authority of the seat of Moses? Read verse seven. āThe law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul.ā David uses the scripture available to him at that time, the law.
Some Church Fathers:
Irenaeus of Lyons: (Against Heresies 3,1) āThe apostles at that time first preached the Gospel but later by the will of God, they delivered it to us in the Scriptures, that it might be the foundation and pillar of our faith.ā
Augustine: (On the Good of Widowhood, 2) āHoly Scripture fixes the rule for our doctrine, lest we dare to be wiser than we ought.ā
Athanasius: (Against the Heathen, 1:1) āThe Holy and Inspired Scriptures are sufficient of themselves for the preaching of the Truth.ā
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