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Biedrik
Guest
AcolyteLector, I gotta say that from the personal experience that I’ve had with Eastern Catholics, that is a hideously inaccurate description of their parishes.
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AcolyteLector
Guest
I know, but I was suggesting to OP that Jesus’ celibacy–in his capacity as High Priest-precedes Peter and company’s marriages.
[Although, I can see many ways in which this statement might be mistaken, depending on when you consider to be the ‘founding’ of the priestly office. In any case, I was just hoping to point out the ridiculousness of the ‘precedent game’ in this case, because I think it leads more to anachronism and the misapplication of Rite-specific customs to the Church as a whole.]
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AcolyteLector
Guest
I would probably agree. A Ukranian Catholic Eparchial see is on the other side of my town, and I have to say that I really respect their tradition. Its a great resource to have so close at hand. I wouldn’t say that the condition I described above is universally the case for all of their parishes, but I have found that at least a handful of the ones that I have observed (probably many more than the average Catholic has been to) match up with my description in one way or another.
I really don’t mean to attack the Eastern Churches, only to point out how abrasive some of the high-flying rhetoric here… directed at the Latin Rite (and usually not from Eastern Catholics, anyway!)… might seem if directed at the ‘bastion’ of Catholic married priesthood.
BTW, your entry on celibacy (the notes you took) in the vocations blog is great… especially the quote about celibacy being ‘an incremental martyrdom’.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
No I understand what you were trying to say. I was sort of trying to agree with you.
The ideal is celibacy (as Br Jay put it, asceticism) and this is portrayed in the West in the office of the priest. In the East this is found in the monk.
Hence the highest in the view of the West is the priest and in the East it is the monk (this is why all male monks are call father and all female monks (nuns) are called mother).
This is how the two traditions view things and they are both valid and I believe that neither should be changed out right. The West does ordain married men to the priesthood but it is done so by dispensation from Rome and only for converting clergy. It is Rome’s right to dispense from Canon Law (discipline) but, again, I do not think they should change it.
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Biedrik
Guest
Hmmm, I think I’ll copy them into this thread. It was good stuff. For those of you that haven’t read my blog, this came from a short retreat we seminarians had on the topic of celibacy. The focus was eight great examples of celibacy. This is a summary of some of the notes I had.
Jesus Christ
A rather obvious example of celibacy, and in fact the perfect model of this. One important thing to note is that Jesus greatly treasured his relationships with others. His celibacy was not some point of pride, nor did he elevate himself to be “too good” to spend time with sinners. He saw all people as created beings with immortal souls, worth going out to and having personal relationships with. And so we celibate men should imitate him in our ministry. We should treasure our relationships, and not even avoid those who live in a totally opposite way to celibacy, such as prostitutes.
St. Joseph
The most important thing about St. Joseph is his willingness to listen to and obey God’s plan, despite not fully understanding it. God told him to marry a woman who was pregnant, and not by him, and St. Joseph obeyed. Yet he was also required to live in chaste celibacy in this marriage, a great challenge. Despite all this, and perhaps not always knowing why he needed to do all this, he followed, obeyed, and trusted in God’s plan.
St. Paul
I’m sure many are familiar with St. Paul’s writings involving celibacy and marriage. He is the one who really outlines the “why” for it in the New Testament. An important factor in celibacy is that it is part of a radical conversion towards Christ, much as St. Paul had. To take up the great challenge of celibate life for Jesus is to radically convert oneself to him, and to live for the greater glory of God.
Origen
Well the first point to make is that Origen’s approach of self-castration is not highly recommended (there were some chuckles when this was mentioned). Despite that rather…unusual action, Origen managed to write down some great insights on celibacy. One great point made was that modesty and chastity are models of perfection, and so perfect celibacy is the height of these two models of perfection. Another point that Origen made was that celibacy is a form of daily “martyrdom” of dying to oneself. Suffering for God is one of the highest things we can do for him, and so to accept the challenge of celibacy is a great act of love towards him.
St. Anthony the Great
So, one point that this saint made is that fear and guilt do not foster control. Inner consciousness and awareness of the presence of God do. Indeed, there should be far more motivation to holding to vows of celibacy than fear and guilt. Another important point made by this great Desert Father is that with celibacy, one must not “do” celibacy, but to be it. It is more than simply the action of abstaining from certain activities. It is a vocation. Likewise, in the future I should seek to be a priest, not to simply do priestly things such as hearing confessions and giving spiritual advice.
St. John Cassian
There were two great things that this saint spoke of about celibacy. First, he speaks of five stages of celibacy, and also 3 areas in which one must focus when it comes to celibacy. Here are the five stages (roughly paraphrased):
- Cessation of all sexual activity.
- Interior control of thoughts.
- Control of the mind during arousal.
- Restraint during external physical stimulation.
- Control when awake and when asleep.
- Physical
- Spiritual.
- Psychological
St. Augustine
It’d be hard to talk about celibacy without mentioning St. Augustine. His change from being a great lover of women to a model of celibacy was astounding. He made two good points. The first is that celibacy is a vocation, and can in fact be a means of salvation (perhaps he was reading St. Anthony when he wrote this). He also said that celibacy is “a new way of loving and the ever new unfolding of nature to divine grace.”
Thomas Merton and Henri Nouwen
These two were put together as one example. The important thing that happened to both of these men was that they both fell in love while celibate, and despite this they kept their vows. If I remember correctly Thomas Merton fell in love with a nurse while he was being cared for in a hospital. I don’t recall what happened to Henri Nouwen. The important thing to learn from them is that even if one does fall in love while celibate, it doesn’t mean that one has to leave celibacy. It can be a chance to recommit to your vows. Also, it should not come as a surprise if it does happen. Celibacy doesn’t stop you from falling in love with someone. An unusual thing that may happen is the opposite, which is that someone falls in love with you, which can be a cause of some conflict due to celibacy. This may happen to any priest, and is a situation that should be handled with delicacy.
Hopefully this adds something to this discussion on celibacy.
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AcolyteLector
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Hey, pal, don’t shoot the messenger.
And not really–the ‘Devil’s advocate’ was to argue the case of the opposition in Church courts, where the matter discussed is a saint’s canonization. You could say that we ‘invented’ this position.
I agree that it is insulting, but I pretty much just took a page out of the book of the people who have been arguing the case for optional celibacy.
And not really–the ‘Devil’s advocate’ was to argue the case of the opposition in Church courts, where the matter discussed is a saint’s canonization. You could say that we ‘invented’ this position.
I agree that it is insulting, but I pretty much just took a page out of the book of the people who have been arguing the case for optional celibacy.
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1Yesusmen
Guest
A question for advocates of a celibate-only clergy: How will God judge those who strive to be intimate with God through living and advocating celibacy while the rest of the world goes to pot for lack of enough priests? Early Christians embraced marriage and challenged the infiltration of pagan asceticm into Christianity:
“In the last times, some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences. They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving for those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving” (1Timothy 4: 1).
Jesus commands love of self and others and never celibacy. In Matthew 15:4-9, Jesus harshly reprimands those who renounce family relations even if they do so for God’s sake:
"God said, Honor your father and mother… but you say, “Whoever says to father or mother, any support you might have had from me is dedicated to God, need not honor his father.” You have nullified the word of God for the sake of your tradition. Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy about you when he said: “This people honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.”
Mandatory celibacy is a human precept and we are in trouble for making it more important than having enough priests in the world to do God’s work. Amen.
“In the last times, some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences. They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving for those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving” (1Timothy 4: 1).
Jesus commands love of self and others and never celibacy. In Matthew 15:4-9, Jesus harshly reprimands those who renounce family relations even if they do so for God’s sake:
"God said, Honor your father and mother… but you say, “Whoever says to father or mother, any support you might have had from me is dedicated to God, need not honor his father.” You have nullified the word of God for the sake of your tradition. Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy about you when he said: “This people honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.”
Mandatory celibacy is a human precept and we are in trouble for making it more important than having enough priests in the world to do God’s work. Amen.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
With the way you have worded this question I am unable to answer.
It seems that the premise behind your question is that God does not work through His Church.
God calls enough priests for His Church. I just do not believe that we are utilizing the priests as necessary.
We have many parishes that have multiple Masses on Sunday but if you took all the people from those various Masses they would still barely fill the parish if they all attended one Mass.
The (so-called) vocation crisis seems to be not enough priests for what the laity want and for their conveince, not that there are not really enough priests.
Plus I think it has been suffeciently proven that allowing the ordination of married men to the priesthood would not greatly increase the number of priests.
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joandarc2008
Guest
The problem with those who are advocating for optional celibacy IMO still fail to understand that it is not sex that is the problem it is the lack of celibacy. It is the same with the parallels between fasting and food.
There is a little thing called lack of obedience as well.
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AcolyteLector
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Haha so you’d consider Christian asceticism as existing in the same vein as its pagan antecedent? This is also completely out of context, and I could explain this for you if you haven’t yet studied the Roman-era outcroppings of the Hellenic schools.A question for advocates of a celibate-only clergy: How will God judge those who strive to be intimate with God through living and advocating celibacy while the rest of the world goes to pot for lack of enough priests? Early Christians embraced marriage and challenged the infiltration of pagan asceticm into Christianity:
“In the last times, some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences. They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving for those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving” (1Timothy 4: 1).
Jesus commands love of self and others and never celibacy.
**Are you honestly proposing to reduce Catholic/Christian practice to the ‘Golden Rule’ alone?
Might I respond, to your second premise, that in many other places he advises those who follow him to cut all ties to the World. Everything in its proper context, or you can bend the Word into contradiction with itself.
Remember that there is a Commandment that begins thusly (i.e., ‘Honor thy father and mother’)–that had seminal importance to the Jewish world, and now to the whole world–and that these basic rules should not be in any way eroded to allow for Christian practice.
Just my interpretation.
In Matthew 15:4-9, Jesus harshly reprimands those who renounce family relations even if they do so for God’s sake:
"God said, Honor your father and mother… but you say, “Whoever says to father or mother, any support you might have had from me is dedicated to God, need not honor his father.” You have nullified the word of God for the sake of your tradition. Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy about you when he said: “This people honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.”
Mandatory celibacy is a human precept and we are in trouble for making it more important than having enough priests in the world to do God’s work. Amen.
But your post demonstrates a very… ‘interesting’… view of the position of the Church in the Catholic world. Let’s put this another way: we have all agreed that there are enough (1) lay ministers, (2) married deacons, and (3) bishops.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the most significant gap, then, that would remain uncovered by a ‘personnel shortage’ (since the party in favor of optional celibacy is all very business-like) in the presbyterate is the ability to stand in the role of Christ in the confessional. Ironically, Confession is–by all accounts–the most neglected sacrament that the Church offers. In some studies the percentage of American Catholics who go to Confession on a regular basis has dropped to 2%. So if we added thousands of married priests to the diocesan pay role (still being business-like for you here), this would be just thousands more priests not hearing Confession.
This, on top of offering the sacrifice of the Mass, are the most conspicuous functions of the priest. Except for the difficulties presented by the Mass ‘issue’–the Church can still perform its mission: the salvation of souls, at present. And–with the uptick in vocations–we should be able to resolve the apparent issue you’ve outlined, without making use of the measures you’re suggesting.
Let me end by saying this: in the history of virtually every region, we see good Catholics travelling miles to Mass, when they did not have a Mass conveniently located near them. If today–in the age of the automobile and city transit lines–people are unwilling to do this; well, who am I to judge, but maybe they don’t deserve Mass? The families that choose to do so (i.e., travel further) and ‘make of a day of it’ will undoubtedly raise their children more devoutly.
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m134e5
Guest
Priests aren’t just sacramental vending machines. Also, dioceses where the Faith is taught as it should be taught don’t have a significant priest shortage. Celibacy is not a problem there. We get the priests we deserve. The world had plenty of priests in the 1950’s, and just as the population has increased, so too has the number of people God calls- it has nothing to do with celibacy- the priest shortage has to do with people being selfish. I’ve known plenty of people who probably shouldn’t be married- but they are so deafened by the world that they don’t recognize that. Celibacy isn’t as rare a calling as some think it is.
Celibacy worked just fine in the Latin Rite for centuries. Materialism and narcisism, could be considered “human precepts”- and they are what got us into this problem. If they didn’t, then we wouldn’t see so many more priests coming out of poorer countries, and countries where the Faith is attacked more. It seems it would be dangerous for the Church to cave in to those things.
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VeroNihilVerius
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If I may chime in just a small word:
I think it is important for us to understand primacy of place. We must elevate the Will of God manifested through the working of the Holy Spirit in the teachings of the Church and its Magisterium above any pragmatic concerns we may allege.
We might make the best plans, think we have analyzed all the right data, and come up with a game plan, but the second we stop trusting that God knows how to take care of his beautiful bride (the Church) and start trying to put it in our hands, the second we challenge His authority.
Celibacy is not an option in the Roman Rite, and it is most probable that it never will be. I highly recommend Theology of the Body by the great Pope John Paul II, which clarifies just what celibacy really is, including an absolute necessity in the life of the Church. It is available online at the link above.
May God bless you all!
+VNV+
I think it is important for us to understand primacy of place. We must elevate the Will of God manifested through the working of the Holy Spirit in the teachings of the Church and its Magisterium above any pragmatic concerns we may allege.
We might make the best plans, think we have analyzed all the right data, and come up with a game plan, but the second we stop trusting that God knows how to take care of his beautiful bride (the Church) and start trying to put it in our hands, the second we challenge His authority.
Celibacy is not an option in the Roman Rite, and it is most probable that it never will be. I highly recommend Theology of the Body by the great Pope John Paul II, which clarifies just what celibacy really is, including an absolute necessity in the life of the Church. It is available online at the link above.
May God bless you all!
+VNV+
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Young_Thinker
Guest
As a side-issue, I was curious as to whether a laicized priest who has married can become a permanent deacon. If I enter the priesthood, I think that I would rather die than leave my clerical state(the same goes for religious vows that I may take), but I know some men have, unfortunately, deserted their vocation in order to marry.
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otjm
Guest
He may be laicized, but he is still a priest. And while he was ordained to the diaconate, he was subsequently ordained to the priesthood. I don’t know (although I suspect) that there may be Canon law which addresses the issue, but I seriously doubt any bishop would install a priest as a permanent deacon. Too much confusion, too much temptation to cross a (liturgical) line.
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VeroNihilVerius
Guest
This would seem to me to be an impossibility, although I do not know with 100% certainty. Since receiving the Sacrament of Holy Orders places an indelible mark on the soul, though, one could never “go backward” in the levels of Orders, I would not think. Once a priest, always a priest (in regard to the nature of the soul), regardless of if faculties are intact, as I understand it.
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otjm
Guest
One does nt have to challenge God’s authority to question whether a disciplinary rule might, or perhaps should, be altered. One has to operate tin the present acknowledging and following the disciplinary rule. But questioning it is not exactly the same as questioning a doctrine.
Well, actually it is; the circumstances of it’s option(ality) is limited, and that limitation is to converted (previous) Protestant ministers.
I agree that reading Theology of the Body is extremely worthwhile. JP2 was a genius.
And I agree that celibacy is a vital witness in the Church; whether one cans say absolute would be to raise celibacy fairly close to a doctrinal issue. And while it is vital, the comment you make leans towards the direction of “If we allow married men to be ordained, celibacy will be done away with”, and there is no valid reason to believe such would occur. Nor do I hear anyone saying that celibacy should be done away with (although it would appear that an extremely small minority might have said such), although over the years I have heard many suggest that the Church should re-look at celibacy only as a rule.
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otjm
Guest
I am sorry, I cannot understand what you are trying to say here.
Well, there was certainly an issue of obedience and keeping one’s promise, in regards to some of the priests over the last 40+ years who were ordained, and then left the priesthood over a woman. However, I don’t believe we are discussing them.
Other than that, I am not sure how your comment plays into this conversation; perhaps you could amplify.
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otjm
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In the EF, at what we called Solemn High Mass, there would be a priest, a deacon and a sub deacon. Both of the latter positions could be done by a priest (there were no permanent deacons at the time, and not a whole lot of transitional deacons nor a whole lot of sub deacons - this being the 1950’snd the early 1960’s).
So, it was possible at a Solemn High Mass for a priest to take the role/position of the two lower orders; but this was specific to the liturgical function. Elsewhere and at all other times, they were priests.
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joandarc2008
Guest
What I am saying is that a vow/promise (as secular clergy do not make vows) of celibacy/chastity is not about the sex it is about the celibacy/chastity. As I realize some of you on the thread are going - we know -you will have to scan back to see what comment prompted me to say that.
As far as the obedience factor - I am not speaking of the obedience to the vow/promise - I am speaking of the obedience to the Magisterium that has placed the vow/promise in effect. Remember one of the Graces of our Confirmation was to be better bound to the Church and one of our promises from Confirmation as I understood them was to defend the same Church.
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Young_Thinker
Guest
I see. Thank you for the information.
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