Opus Dei - secret Catholic society per Matt Lauer on Today Show NBC on Nov. 4 morning

[Honoria20]

Writer:

… I did not catch what it was called, or what exactly its purpose is/was. Do some of this group believe in inflicting pain on themselves as some sort of attempt at purity? If so, reminds me of our more fanatical brothers in the Islamic faith, but I’d be interesed in other folks’ understanding of these instruments.

It’s called a cilice is pronounced silis:
I got this info of this site:

**.interbit.com/blogger/OpusDeiFAQ.html#q34 **

**What are the cilice and discipline? What are they for? Who uses them? **

**The cilice is a chain or strap with small spikes in it. Numeraries and associates wear it around their thigh for 2 hours a day. It has also been described as a wire mesh, with the ends of the wires pointing inward. Sometimes the points are filed down. **

**The discipline is a cord with knots in it. Once a week numeraries and associates use it to strike themselves with. **

**Jesus invites all Christians to help him carry the cross. It’s true that for most of us there are plenty of crosses in our daily lives, and we don’t need to invent new ones. Nevertheless, it’s a good and longstanding Christian practice to deny ourselves some simple pleasures in order to fortify our will, remind ourselves of the passing nature of this world’s goods, unite ourselves to the sufferings of the Lord in his passion, and to offer atonement for our sins. This is the purpose of the ancient practice of fasting and abstaining from meat, for example. **

**It’s interesting that many people understand the need to deny themselves sweets and excessive amounts of food and to get up early in the morning, regardless of the weather, to run miles and miles, enduring great physical pain. They will submit to painful operations and medical treatments, even to the point of injecting poisons (chemotherapy, botox) into their bodies. They do all these things to preserve or restore their physical health, or even just their beauty. Yet they recoil at the idea of doing things that cause far less physical discomfort if the motivation is spiritual in nature. These are the people who don’t understand and are horrified at the practice of corporal mortification. **

**It seems to me that the controversy over the use of these means of mortification arises from the fact that they’re intended to fortify the soul rather than the body, and they don’t involve the use of Spandex® or a membership in a health spa. However, these are traditional means used by many saints in the church’s history, and even if they aren’t used quite so much today, that doesn’t diminish their value. **

 

[Jayson]

Again, I wish I were courageous enough to use a clice and the discipline.

In the meantime, I often sleep without pillows, take cold showers, and fast. For me, at least, mortification has been a key part of progressing spiritually. It helps one to concur their bad habits and it also helps us to gain a fuller understanding of the communion of saints which we profess so often in our creeds. Through our self sacrifice and our willingness to bear suffering we are able to make up what is lacking in others and are able to benefit the entire church and the whole world.

It should also be noted that thorugh our faith in Christ, suffering is no longer something that is entirely negative but is instead something that we can use for the betterment of ourselves and others. We are able to take our enemy’s weapon and use it against him!

 

[Writer]

Honoria20:

It’s called a cilice is pronounced silis:
I got this info of this site:

.interbit.com/blogger/OpusDeiFAQ.html#q34

**What are the cilice and discipline? What are they for? Who uses them? **

**The cilice is a chain or strap with small spikes in it. Numeraries and associates wear it around their thigh for 2 hours a day. It has also been described as a wire mesh, with the ends of the wires pointing inward. Sometimes the points are filed down. **

**The discipline is a cord with knots in it. Once a week numeraries and associates use it to strike themselves with. **

**Jesus invites all Christians to help him carry the cross. It’s true that for most of us there are plenty of crosses in our daily lives, and we don’t need to invent new ones. Nevertheless, it’s a good and longstanding Christian practice to deny ourselves some simple pleasures in order to fortify our will, remind ourselves of the passing nature of this world’s goods, unite ourselves to the sufferings of the Lord in his passion, and to offer atonement for our sins. This is the purpose of the ancient practice of fasting and abstaining from meat, for example. **

**It’s interesting that many people understand the need to deny themselves sweets and excessive amounts of food and to get up early in the morning, regardless of the weather, to run miles and miles, enduring great physical pain. They will submit to painful operations and medical treatments, even to the point of injecting poisons (chemotherapy, botox) into their bodies. They do all these things to preserve or restore their physical health, or even just their beauty. Yet they recoil at the idea of doing things that cause far less physical discomfort if the motivation is spiritual in nature. These are the people who don’t understand and are horrified at the practice of corporal mortification. **

**It seems to me that the controversy over the use of these means of mortification arises from the fact that they’re intended to fortify the soul rather than the body, and they don’t involve the use of Spandex® or a membership in a health spa. However, these are traditional means used by many saints in the church’s history, and even if they aren’t used quite so much today, that doesn’t diminish their value. **

Thank you very much for the clarification on this issue. I appreciate it. Having never heard of its presence before, I am a little taken aback and trying to understand its use. I think of the body as the temple of God, and it is my understanding that anything we undertake to directly harm our own body is a sin–no matter what the good intentions underlying the misguided action may be. In recalling the biography of Saint Francis, for example, he shunned worldly goods or ownership, did not wear clothes suitable for the harsh weather, permitted a hot poker to be inserted into his eye as a supposed medical practice, etc., but I am unaware of whether the great saints such as this ever engaged in self-mutilation. Self mutilation is understood as a medical condition, isn’t it? What saints are associated with this practice? I am not declaring it in error on theological grounds, since I am the newbie here, but I have done a lot of reading of the Fathers of the Church and others, and I don’t recall having come across this issue before. It almost seems to be a holdout from a past age, which did not understand what it means to be “made in the image of God”. There is a vast gulf seperating abstaining from certain pleasures or fasting to honor God and the act of plunging a sharpened device into one’s skin to draw blood. It would seem that the latter dishonors God’s temple and emphasizes the self instead of God’s presence.

 

[bear06]

I’d just like to drop a quick line to point out that self-mutilation is different from what Opus Dei does. There is no mutilation involved. There is discomfort. Now, if you want to see mutilation, go down to the local mall and see all of those cute little teens with their belly buttons, tongues, back and other areas that I won’t mentioned pierced. Ouch! That’s pretty much forever even if they grow up! I’m all for earings (on the lobe) that doesn’t hurt. I can’t even imagine the pain involved with having your tongue pierced. How come Matt Lauer doesn’t do an expose’ on them? :bigyikes:

 

[Honoria20]

Writer:

Thank you very much for the clarification on this issue. I appreciate it. Having never heard of its presence before, I am a little taken aback and trying to understand its use. I think of the body as the temple of God, and it is my understanding that anything we undertake to directly harm our own body is a sin–no matter what the good intentions underlying the misguided action may be. In recalling the biography of Saint Francis, for example, he shunned worldly goods or ownership, did not wear clothes suitable for the harsh weather, permitted a hot poker to be inserted into his eye as a supposed medical practice, etc., but I am unaware of whether the great saints such as this ever engaged in self-mutilation. Self mutilation is understood as a medical condition, isn’t it? What saints are associated with this practice? I am not declaring it in error on theological grounds, since I am the newbie here, but I have done a lot of reading of the Fathers of the Church and others, and I don’t recall having come across this issue before. It almost seems to be a holdout from a past age, which did not understand what it means to be “made in the image of God”. There is a vast gulf seperating abstaining from certain pleasures or fasting to honor God and the act of plunging a sharpened device into one’s skin to draw blood. It would seem that the latter dishonors God’s temple and emphasizes the self instead of God’s presence.

It would be good if you read further on this site http://www.interbit.com/blogger/OpusDeiFAQ.html#q34

and reflect again on this :

… It seems to me that the controversy over the use of these means of mortification arises from the fact that they’re intended to fortify the soul rather than the body…

 

[Vitae]

opusdeialert.com

“This website is dedicated in reparation for the offenses, outrages and overall misrepresentation of true Catholic devotion to St. Joseph, the worthy spouse of the Most Chaste Virgin, as is advanced and perpetrated by the anti-Catholic Talmudic sect known as Opus Dei.”

 

[Writer]

Honoria20:

It would be good if you read further on this site http://www.interbit.com/blogger/OpusDeiFAQ.html#q34

and reflect again on this :

This is interesting, but I’m afraid I am still uncomfortable with it. ('ll see what “Ask an Appologist” says perhaps.)To my wife and me, it just seems to encourage pride and be focused on the self, rather than others. I also don’t see the difference between this and self mutilation, if taken far enough to draw blood or leave a scar. It seems that God would prefer us to do good to others rather than do harm to ourselves, His temple, under the guise of devotion. What is the list of saints who practiced this?

 

[Eireann]

Writer:

The only thing I did find a little strange or creepy as a new Catholic was the odd object they showed on the wall that resembled a torture device. I did not catch what it was called, or what exactly its purpose is/was. Do some of this group believe in inflicting pain on themselves as some sort of attempt at purity? If so, reminds me of our more fanatical brothers in the Islamic faith, but I’d be interesed in other folks’ understanding of these instruments.

I didn’t see it obvious, but don’t be surprised about some Catholics doing things for mortification.

Saint Martin wore a garment that caused him much pain, for rhe sins of the world, the souls in purgatory, and for his own sins.
The children of Fatima decided to wear uncomfortable ropes around their waist’s, other Saints have done their own self mortification.
Saint Rose was said to be so beautiful that she could stop the traffic, all-beit probably horse and cart.
So she asked God to take her beauty away, plus she cut her hair, as she said those things can drag mens souls to hell.
Mortification is nothing new, Jesus did by starving Himself for forty days, we are supposed to do it one hour before receiving.
At lent we do it, but not in a way that cause us to shed our blood, but we are all called to do penance in some way or another.
The difference between Islamic mortification and Catholics, they do it in public for all to see, Catholics usually do it so only God can tell, didn’t Jesus point out that the Pharisees did this in public for all men to see ?

 

[Joan_M]

opusdeialert.com

“This website is dedicated in reparation for the offenses, outrages and overall misrepresentation of true Catholic devotion to St. Joseph, the worthy spouse of the Most Chaste Virgin, as is advanced and perpetrated by the anti-Catholic Talmudic sect known as Opus Dei.”

Why on earth would you post a link to this web site? I looked at it, and it is totally heretical! We simply do not need to get our blood pressure raised by rubbish such as this!

 

[Ferdinand_Mary]

General Reminder:

The charity level of this discussion appears to be deteriorating. Please self-edit for tone and content before clicking the “Submit” button. If the charity level does not improve, this thread will have to be locked. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

Ferdinand Mary

 

[AquinasXVI]

No surprises there. I know Fr. Mike Barrett personally. He’s one of the finest priests I’ve ever known. In fact, he’s the first Opus Dei priest I’ve met way back when. You can hear his daily homilies at www.holycrosschapel.org and get a first hand hearing
of what Opus Dei priests have to offer. If you can’t get to daily mass, this is one way of getting a homily everyday.

in XT.

 

[William_Putnam]

Semper Fi:

Does anyone even watch NBC anymore? Their reporting is really bad, and I don’t believe I’ve even tuned into NBC in months (can’t remember the last time I did).

Hah!

I have taken my television and “appoxy glued” it to Fox Cable Network News, with the option of going to the Military channel, the History channel and most expecially, EWTN.

God bless and indeed, Semper Fi.

PAX

Bill+†+

CDR USN (ret.)

Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

 

[bear06]

Writer:

This is interesting, but I’m afraid I am still uncomfortable with it. ('ll see what “Ask an Appologist” says perhaps.)To my wife and me, it just seems to encourage pride and be focused on the self, rather than others. I also don’t see the difference between this and self mutilation, if taken far enough to draw blood or leave a scar. It seems that God would prefer us to do good to others rather than do harm to ourselves, His temple, under the guise of devotion. What is the list of saints who practiced this?

Actually, it actually should make one focus on the wounds of Christ. There’s someone who went through corporal mortification willingly. You may not be comfortable with it but the Church is.
newadvent.org/cathen/10578b.htm

People need to realize that we are not all called to the same things. Throughout our Church’s historly we can see that some had hard rules. Remember, the Pope at first told St. Francis that his rules were too strict. Of course, he changed his mind.

I’ve encouraged people to do this before but I’ll do it again. Seek out an Opus Dei priest and you’ll find them very normal, wonderful priests and very selfless. You’d never even know they practiced corporal mortifications. They certainly don’t walk around telling people "Look at me, I engage in corporal mortifications. It would seem that you might want to reserve judgment of corporal mortifications until you get to know someone that engages in this practice.

 

[Writer]

bear06:

Actually, it actually should make one focus on the wounds of Christ. There’s someone who went through corporal mortification willingly. You may not be comfortable with it but the Church is.
newadvent.org/cathen/10578b.htm

People need to realize that we are not all called to the same things. Throughout our Church’s historly we can see that some had hard rules. Remember, the Pope at first told St. Francis that his rules were too strict. Of course, he changed his mind.

I’ve encouraged people to do this before but I’ll do it again. Seek out an Opus Dei priest and you’ll find them very normal, wonderful priests and very selfless. You’d never even know they practiced corporal mortifications. They certainly don’t walk around telling people "Look at me, I engage in corporal mortifications. It would seem that you might want to reserve judgment of corporal mortifications until you get to know someone that engages in this practice.

I don’t disagree with anything that I see in the article you submitted, but I see it more analogous to abstinence in general than the use of something to draw blood from ourselves. If we examine the terrible needs of the world around us, how does this kind of isolated mutilation of one’s body exceed the benefit of doing good to one’s neighbor? Abstinence is something we all should observe, since it makes the spirit stronger. Using instruments which appear to resemble the torture tools of the Middle Ages, however, points us not in the direction of the Lord and Savior, I would respectfully suggest, but points the way to the man exalting himself. “See what I can do! Don’t you try this, but my word I am a holy man.”

There is a priest I read about, and of whom I have discussed with a seminary student at the University of Stubenville who agrees wholeheartedly with me, who bears the stigmata on a daily basis. The interesting thing, however, is that he has to go into a room by himself to acquire the fresh wound and new blood. I suspect that while he is alone, he is simply re-opening the wound with a pocket knife or his finger nails. Is this what these instruments teach us? When the true stigmata has appeared on saints such as Saint Francis, it was not something he created, it was a sign from God of his devotion to Christ. It seems to this humble observer that these self-inflicted wounds are perhaps an attempt by some to create symbols on themselves which they otherwise would not receive. This says nothing as to what kind of an example this (potentially) sadistic behavior could set for teens and others who have no problem cutting themselves and engaging in self destructive behavior. In conclusion, does this behavior fall into the Culture of Life and of all things good and lovely, which we should dwell upon? In Philippians 4:8, the Christian is reminded to think “on whatever things are true, whatever things are honorable, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there is any virtue, and if there is any praise, think about these things.”

I like the sections below from the CCC, because they seem to let the nature of man, the temple of God and made in the image of Him, shine forth.

*1430 Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, “sackcloth and ashes,” fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.[23] *

*1431 Interior repentance is a radical reorientation of our whole life, a return, a conversion to God with all our heart, an end of sin, a turning away from evil, with repugnance toward the evil actions we have committed. At the same time it entails the desire and resolution to change one’s life, with hope in God’s mercy and trust in the help of his grace. This conversion of heart is accompanied by a salutary pain and sadness which the Fathers called animi cruciatus (affliction of spirit) and compunctio cordis (repentance of heart).[24] **1432 The human heart is heavy and hardened. God must give man a new heart.[25] Conversion is first of all a work of the grace of God who makes our hearts return to him: “Restore us to thyself, O LORD, that we may be restored!”[26] God gives us the strength to begin anew. It is in discovering the greatness of God’s love that our heart is shaken by the horror and weight of sin and begins to fear offending God by sin and being separated from him. The human heart is converted by looking upon him whom our sins have pierced:[27] *

---

 

[John666]

You should be able to view the show by clicking on the web site below. You may have to type in the search box “opus dei”

video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm

Hope it works,

Joe

 

[Honoria20]

John666:

You should be able to view the show by clicking on the web site below. You may have to type in the search box “opus dei”

video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm

Hope it works,

Joe

IT WORKS!!! Thank you so much!

 

[bear06]

I don’t disagree with anything that I see in the article you submitted, but I see it more analogous to abstinence in general than the use of something to draw blood from ourselves.

You may see it this way but it is not as the Church sees it. For example, Opus Dei’s rules are approved by the Pope. These rules are not a secret to the Pope. Also, I think it was you who asked for saints who did these types of corporal mortifications. I’m sure there are more but Thomas More, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Jose Maria Escriva (founder of Opus Dei) and St. Therese, St. Dominic all eengaged in corporal mortifications like the ones of which you disapprove.

If we examine the terrible needs of the world around us, how does this kind of isolated mutilation of one’s body exceed the benefit of doing good to one’s neighbor?

Here’s an article written by an Opus Dei priest explaining this.
crisismagazine.com/julaug2005/giesler.htm

Abstinence is something we all should observe, since it makes the spirit stronger. Using instruments which appear to resemble the torture tools of the Middle Ages, however, points us not in the direction of the Lord and Savior,

I
Once again, on this point, you are saying something that the Church and her saints do not.

When the true stigmata has appeared on saints such as Saint Francis, it was not something he created, it was a sign from God of his devotion to Christ. It seems to this humble observer that these self-inflicted wounds are perhaps an attempt by some to create symbols on themselves which they otherwise would not receive. This says nothing as to what kind of an example this (potentially) sadistic behavior could set for teens and others who have no problem cutting themselves and engaging in self destructive behavior

I would agree with you on part of this. Claiming that something is given to them by God, like the stigmata, which isn’t would be wrong. Corporal mortification such as the cilice, etc. hasn’t been condemned by the Church. You see it as sadistic behavior but the Church does not if used properly. Like I said, there are rules about these things.

In conclusion, does this behavior fall into the Culture of Life and of all things good and lovely, which we should dwell upon?

Once again, we are not all called to the same things. Why should we focus on the suffering of Christ? It was a pretty horrific act. How is it that Saints have practiced these mortifications and be praised by the Church if they were wrong? Shouldn’t we be holding these saints up for our young people to follow?

think “on whatever things are true, whatever things are honorable, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there is any virtue, and if there is any praise, think about these things.”

Opus Dei numeraries who engage in these things are thinking upon these things. What proof would you give that they are not?

i]1430 Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, “sackcloth and ashes,” fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.[23]

*1431 Interior repentance is a radical reorientation of our whole life, a return, a conversion to God with all our heart, an end of sin, a turning away from evil, with repugnance toward the evil actions we have committed. At the same time it entails the desire and resolution to change one’s life, with hope in God’s mercy and trust in the help of his grace. This conversion of heart is accompanied by a salutary pain and sadness which the Fathers called animi cruciatus (affliction of spirit) and compunctio cordis (repentance of heart).[24] **1432 The human heart is heavy and hardened. God must give man a new heart.[25] Conversion is first of all a work of the grace of God who makes our hearts return to him: “Restore us to thyself, O LORD, that we may be restored!”[26] God gives us the strength to begin anew. It is in discovering the greatness of God’s love that our heart is shaken by the horror and weight of sin and begins to fear offending God by sin and being separated from him. The human heart is converted by looking upon him whom our sins have pierced:[27] *

None of these are contrary to Opus Dei’s act of corporal mortification. Once again, these are very private acts, not secretive. They don’t run around saying “Hi, I practice corporal mortifications.” I really encourage you to go to the horse for answers.

 

[Joan_M]

Writer:

I don’t disagree with anything that I see in the article you submitted, but I see it more analogous to abstinence in general than the use of something to draw blood from ourselves. If we examine the terrible needs of the world around us, how does this kind of isolated mutilation of one’s body exceed the benefit of doing good to one’s neighbor?

**There is no mutilation of the body. There is physical penance. **

Abstinence is something we all should observe, since it makes the spirit stronger. Physical penance also makes the spirit stronger.

Using instruments which appear to resemble the torture tools of the Middle Ages, however, points us not in the direction of the Lord and Savior, I would respectfully suggest, but points the way to the man exalting himself. “See what I can do! Don’t you try this, but my word I am a holy man.”

Wrong impression! Physical penance is undertaken from humility - seeing ourselves as sinners and undertaking to chastise the body, to help self-management. Anyway, the Opus Dei members who use the means of physical mortification under discussion do so privately - noone who knows them is aware of what they use. I mean, for example, I have heard of the discipline, I have never seen one, and I could not determine from the people I know who are Numeraries, and therefore do use it, whether or not they use it - I have never seen them do so, and never heard them speaking about having used them. It is all carried out in private - so no “See what I can do!” or anything like that.

There is a priest I read about, and of whom I have discussed with a seminary student at the University of Stubenville who agrees wholeheartedly with me, who bears the stigmata on a daily basis. The interesting thing, however, is that he has to go into a room by himself to acquire the fresh wound and new blood. I suspect that while he is alone, he is simply re-opening the wound with a pocket knife or his finger nails. Is this what these instruments teach us?

Definitely not. Are you suggesting that the priest you read about is a member of Opus Dei? Or are you merely suggesting that using the discipline or the cilice could lead to falsification of stigmata?

**
**

 

[TexanCatholic]

Thats all well and good… But if I ever found my son or daughter doing this kind of "corporal mortification"business in my house, I’d give them a taste of a different kind of corporal punishment!

 

[Writer]

Thank you for your post, Joan. I have no idea whether, or not, the priest I referred to earlier belonged to Opus Dei, and I really wouldn’t venture a guess. My point was that perhaps there is a place that this kind of focus takes us, and it may not be a particularly good place to be–if it perhaps encourages some to “fake” the stigmata on their bodies. I have heard of this taking place a number of times, and I wonder whether the attitude or inclination was perhaps inspired in some way by “corporal mortification” process? I don’t know, but just thought I’d throw it out there.

In regards to your observation that it is always done in private, this appears to be true. What caught my interest, though, was one of the submitted articles which described the founder of the Opus Dei movement, I believe, and his forbidding his family from carrying on these practices themselves. When I think of that, pride comes to mind. Perhaps you will see it differently. While it is obviously true that each believer is called to a different path, there is some peculiar about the founder of the movement forbidding his family to do what he found so possitive.

I also wonder if these actions could be a gateway into the world of sadism in general. In other words, perhaps the believer undertakes it at first for the right reasons, but then he wanders off track. I recall a particular religious writer who had a problem in his early days in the area of sadism, and I think it is important that the Church understand the underlying psychology which could get involved when these actions might overtake the believer and deliever him to the “other side”. I guess, at the very least, I would categorize “corporal mortification” as playing with fire–especially in the event that the participant has psychological inclinations towards sadomasochistic behavior, or has ever dabbled in the occult.

I appreciate all the comments and (name removed by moderator)ut from folks. I guess this is one of those things I would have a problem with, but it certainly isn’t enough to keep me out of the Church. I also suspect it may have had more relevance in the past, and I do gather that the practice is dying-away in the modern world, which in my opinion, is not a bad state of affairs.