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bear06
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BTW, this website lists some of those charity projects that Opus Dei never engages in.
opusdei.us/art.php?p=5627
opusdei.us/art.php?p=5627
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lukewarm
Guest
Unfortunately I’m afraid I do…[Yep, you don’t get them at all.
There HQ is probably worth 500 mil or more right now, and they are teaching a couple Peruvians how to build autos? There charitable giving doesn’t seem to be in line with their insane wealth. Extremely secretive and wealthy cults make me suspect…
I work in the community and go to Mass at one point daily right up the block from Opus Dei HQ, they have never been involved with our Parish at all.
Sorry I found it to be exactly what I described, a secret society of super Catholics quite content to hand out with other super Catholics.
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IronHammer
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bear06
Guest
Unfortunately I’m afraid I do…
Make you your mind.
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bear06
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bear06;3255430:
where the fellow was in OD for 27 years and his FAQ sheds a lot of positivity on OD.
It is very nice to talk to someone personally. RedMeg said she’s be happy to answer any questions you have in this post:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3253088&postcount=16
She’d probably be better at it since she’s a "card carrying"member, as I like to say. I also found the three websites that Sayanz gave in this post very interesting. I hadn’t seen them before.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3253330&postcount=19
Good luck. I know Opus Dei is in Indiana but I’m not sure if it’s close to rural Indiana.
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Red_Meg
Guest
Hello.
I’m sorry, the “card-carrying member” (actually, no membership cards) has been down sick all day. I guess I don’t live in cyber-time-- what I thought would be a slow-paced conversation grew exponentially overnight.
I have a cranky nursing toddler in my arms right now, a cranky space key on my computer, and need to go start picking kids up from school in about five minutes. I’ll check back in later and will try to think of some concise way to share my experiences with the Work. Meanwhile, concrete questions would go a long way. (Bear, you tried to get that goinglast night but I wasn’t online) and it wouldn’t hurt to search the Forums. I don’t know how much was lostin the Great Crash but therehave been plenty of Opus Dei threads in the past…
Margaret
I’m sorry, the “card-carrying member” (actually, no membership cards) has been down sick all day. I guess I don’t live in cyber-time-- what I thought would be a slow-paced conversation grew exponentially overnight.
I have a cranky nursing toddler in my arms right now, a cranky space key on my computer, and need to go start picking kids up from school in about five minutes. I’ll check back in later and will try to think of some concise way to share my experiences with the Work. Meanwhile, concrete questions would go a long way. (Bear, you tried to get that goinglast night but I wasn’t online) and it wouldn’t hurt to search the Forums. I don’t know how much was lostin the Great Crash but therehave been plenty of Opus Dei threads in the past…
Margaret
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Sure
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Hi Red Meg,
Perhaps you could provide some feedback on the 4 problem areas that I highlighted in my earlier post (#31).
Thanks!
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Scottgun
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bear06
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I can answer a few of these but I’m sure Meg can give you response from an actual member which you might appreciate more.
Now, as a women, sometimes it’s quite nice to receive advice on the spiritual from someone who’s living the same lifestyle. For instance, I’d be far less use in helping a professional learn to sanctify their lives through their everyday work than I would to another mother. What I find remarkable is that while they draw on their experiences, they don’t project. It’s a careful balance and I’m sure not all are able to achieve that. Again, people have different personalities.
When I received lay spiritual direction, it was more like encouragement and examples from someone who was living a quite similar life to mine who quite better understands the Opus Dei philosophy. It was quite different from the spiritual direction I’d receive from a priest.
I haven’t run into this but maybe this is where different people come into play.
Again, nobody, has to sign up to go to the recollections (which btw, are way more than a simple circle), retreats, confessions or even the numerous other activities that are found in the different areas (and there are quite a few things in some areas).
My sister did receive training and the spiritual direction is not exclusive to the lay. It’s always encouraged to receive spiritual direction with a priest.
Now, as a women, sometimes it’s quite nice to receive advice on the spiritual from someone who’s living the same lifestyle. For instance, I’d be far less use in helping a professional learn to sanctify their lives through their everyday work than I would to another mother. What I find remarkable is that while they draw on their experiences, they don’t project. It’s a careful balance and I’m sure not all are able to achieve that. Again, people have different personalities.
When I received lay spiritual direction, it was more like encouragement and examples from someone who was living a quite similar life to mine who quite better understands the Opus Dei philosophy. It was quite different from the spiritual direction I’d receive from a priest.
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I haven’t run into this but maybe this is where different people come into play.
Again, I have never known this to be done at the exclusion of a priest.
You don’t get thrown out for not doing these things. Life happens and they seem to understand this. That said, how many times do we as humans come up with excuses? How many times do we not hit daily Mass because we are lazy not because it’s impossible? For me this is more often than not. I’m working on it.
Remember, they are feel called to be a quiet apostolate. They are training us to evangelizers. They don’t often go where they are not wanted. Also, it’s important not to forget those who are already Catholics in lew of the non-Catholics and poor. It can all be achieved. The better Catholics we become, the more we can attract others. Again, this is a mushroom effect. Why do we expect Opus Dei, the organization, to do everything? Shouldn’t we be doing it in cooperation with them?
I don’t find this to be true. In fact, our Institute priest was brought into the Church by Opus Dei. I’m sure he’d have a different opinion. Of course, you will find different people in different places. The supernumeraries I know have quite an apostolate to the protestants.
Ask a priest and I’m sure you’ll get an answer.
Circles are a gift to cooperators. A thank you. Anyone is welcome at the recollections, retreats, confession, etc. You become a tight little group of friends (albeit welcoming to anyone) and so, no, they don’t like people going in and out of these groups. Now, some people do things differnt ways. I was quite interested in being in a circle but people, as it turned out, were afraid of putting me off by inviting me to become a cooperator. This is my one criticism of Opus Dei. In an effort to not make people feel uncomfortable, they make people feel uncomfortable. I was happy to be a cooperator but I didn’t even know about it. I’ve always told them that in their effort not to make people feel like they’re being hunted down to join something that they’ve made people think it’s a secretive club. I can see their worries but at the same time they’ve got to find a balance. They’ve actually taken my comments to heart and things have changed a lot around here. I’m sure it varies from place to place. I’ve had other friends from other areas say that they’ve always allowed non-cooperators to come to cooperator circles (btw, that is what they’re called).
Sigh! It’s one event. Certainly not all. I, a cooperator who prays for the work daily and gives money when I can (you don’t even have to be Catholic), think it rather nice that they thank me in such a nice way. I’d rather have the comraderie than a pin!
Again, nobody, has to sign up to go to the recollections (which btw, are way more than a simple circle), retreats, confessions or even the numerous other activities that are found in the different areas (and there are quite a few things in some areas).My husband also likes the fact that they’ve all had careers before the priesthood so they’ve got a perspective that helps him a lot.
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bear06
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IronHammer;3255621:
I agree altough a certain amount of personal experiences are bound to come up. Let’s add to your list that the Murray Hill site has a beautiful house and chapel - the latter of which is way prettier than the rest of the house as shown in the video I provided. Let’s also add that many people in the Murray Hill site avail themselves of the many services offered there (again as shown in the video provided). Lastly, Opus Dei has many apostolates to the poor many of which are listed on the site I gave. The number is far more than a few. As far as secrecy goes, I think that can also point to the website to show this isn’t true. They’ve even got a FAQ tab which has just about every question I’ve ever seen on it and a space to ask your own question! I’m not really sure what more people would like.opusdei.us/sec.php?s=494
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Red_Meg
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Phew-- back from my “appointed rounds.”
Gotta get to homework in a minute so I’ll tackle what I can of your #31, although it looks like Bear has already done yeoman’s work there…
Also, keep in mind-- some of the daily Mass types really are searching for a place to fit in. Some of them feel like the “only one” in their school or workplace that actually believe the Church’s teachings on marriage, abortion, honesty, etc. If someone like that came into contact with Opus Dei and found refreshment in spending time with some other people on the same wavelength, I think that could only be a good thing.
Also, keep in mind, there are ways to work around this if someone really, really just wants formation. Several years ago I organized a small group of moms looking for some basic formation but who, for various reasons, were not ready to become cooperators. I just borrowed the talk outlines and worked from those. I jokingly called it the “non-circle.”
Spelling homework awaits…
Margaret
(PS Red Meg is just my handle-- I always sign myself Margaret because that’s what I prefer to be called.)
Gotta get to homework in a minute so I’ll tackle what I can of your #31, although it looks like Bear has already done yeoman’s work there…
I hate to go all anecdotal here, but I don’t think this is the kind of thing anyone collects data on, so— it’s worked for me. Different people at different points in my life have either formally or informally given me spiritual direction. Their knowledge of the faith has always been consistently very solid, and I don’t feel I’ve ever been steered wrong. If I ever felt I really couldn’t work with the person giving me direction, I would have no compunctions about politely speaking up about it and getting things switched around.
No argument there. Never heard an argument about that from anybody in the Work. Bear did make the good point, though, that it’s important to be brutally honest about laziness vs. the genuine demands of life. That being said, unfortunately, the demands of my family life DO keep me from daily Mass more than I would like. There’s also another factor to keep in mind-- I really do NEED to pray, get to Mass, do some spiritual reading, etc-- for my sake and for my family’s. You know the part on the airplanes where they remind parents to put on their oxygen masks first, before helping the kids with theirs? There’s a certain truth to that in the spiritual life. I think it all just comes down to being really honest with oneself-- some days the logistics are just crazy crazy crazy and there’s hardly time to even breath, other days I’m really just in a rut and need to get out of myself a bit, drag myself off to Mass (always gets me out of the rut) and then get on with my day.
The last time I taught a doctrine class, the most faithful attendees were a non-Catholic (but please pray!!!) and a recent “revert” who was trying to make up for all the catechesis she never really received as a child. The other two, more sporadic ones were a recent convert who’d gone through an (Ack!) RCIA program completely devoid of doctrinal content, and a mom I know from my kids’ school, who is practicing but definitely not the daily Mass type.
Also, keep in mind-- some of the daily Mass types really are searching for a place to fit in. Some of them feel like the “only one” in their school or workplace that actually believe the Church’s teachings on marriage, abortion, honesty, etc. If someone like that came into contact with Opus Dei and found refreshment in spending time with some other people on the same wavelength, I think that could only be a good thing.
On the flip side-- circles take a LOT of time to prepare, and it can sometimes take pretty heroic efforts for the attendees to make it to the circle. I view it as a healthy protection of their time and effort to try and ensure that the circle can be as fruitful as possible for the ones who actually have made a commitment. If the person giving the circle has to constantly explain the most basic things from the ground up, or worry that there may be a few looky-lous or nit-pickers just along for the ride, it really would be a bit unfair for the cooperators.
Also, keep in mind, there are ways to work around this if someone really, really just wants formation. Several years ago I organized a small group of moms looking for some basic formation but who, for various reasons, were not ready to become cooperators. I just borrowed the talk outlines and worked from those. I jokingly called it the “non-circle.”
I agree.
Spelling homework awaits…
Margaret
(PS Red Meg is just my handle-- I always sign myself Margaret because that’s what I prefer to be called.)
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Red_Meg
Guest
Oooh forgot–
I found another listing at josemariaescriva.info/index.php?id_cat=276&id_scat=275 of more charitable initiatives. The web design is a bit poor, IMHO, but if you look at the left column there’s a whole list of projects you can poke around in.
Also-- keep in mind that different groups are good at different types of charitable works and have different charisms. Some of the sisters and brothers who run soup kitchens have a truly miraculous ability to turn a chicken, a bag of rice and a carrot into an endless pot of filling soup for many, many people. Some of those groups focus on the most immediate human needs of food, shelter and health care. Outstanding work. Others, like Opus Dei, focus on the longer-term solutions to the problems. Since our whole focus is on sanctifying work, helping to give other people better tools, training, networks, etc. to accomplish their work makes sense, I think.
Now I really need to get to spelling.
M.
I found another listing at josemariaescriva.info/index.php?id_cat=276&id_scat=275 of more charitable initiatives. The web design is a bit poor, IMHO, but if you look at the left column there’s a whole list of projects you can poke around in.
Also-- keep in mind that different groups are good at different types of charitable works and have different charisms. Some of the sisters and brothers who run soup kitchens have a truly miraculous ability to turn a chicken, a bag of rice and a carrot into an endless pot of filling soup for many, many people. Some of those groups focus on the most immediate human needs of food, shelter and health care. Outstanding work. Others, like Opus Dei, focus on the longer-term solutions to the problems. Since our whole focus is on sanctifying work, helping to give other people better tools, training, networks, etc. to accomplish their work makes sense, I think.
Now I really need to get to spelling.
M.
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m134e5
Guest
I am not in Opus Dei. There isn’t an Opus Dei center near me (that I know of). I think my bishop (Bishop Finn) is in Opus Dei- I’m not sure- I remember reading somewhere that he was though, and I have a great deal of respect and admiration for him I have three of St. Josemaria Escriva’s books- they are about the most powerful spiritual books I’ve ever read. Opus Dei may be extreme, but nowadays, it seems more common to be lukewarm in the faith- to go to Mass on Sundays (if at all) and keep it to yourselves every other time. I’ve known way too many Catholics who are afraid of going in too deep (into homilies, discussions, or anything faith-related) because they are afraid of making people uncomfortable. The world needs Catholics who stand for something- and if you don’t hear/read things at least once in awhile that make you uncomfortable, chances are your spiritual life isn’t doing too well.
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Dauphin
Guest
Critics of Opus Dei here seem to be operating on the premise that prayer and contemplation are useless and selfish. From that premise, you’d have to condemn just about all monastic communities as well. To someone who believes that prayer is delusion, monasteries must look like glorified country clubs. All that sacrifice, toil, and prayer is for nothing if it doesn’t serve the “social gospel”
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I’ll add my anecdote, for whatever it’s worth.
While my son was a freshman in law school, he was invited to work for the summer in an Opus Dei school in the South Bronx.
Well, the South Bronx is a far cry from Murray Hill. The purpose of the school was to tutor young black and Latino toughs in some academic subjects, athletics and lessons on character. I have no idea how they recruit the students; with the parents perhaps. I suspect some are told by the juvenile office to go, or else.
The living conditions were spartan, and the neighborhood where the kids came from and where the staff lived, was beyond awful. The kids were tough and street-smart. The “teachers” were expected to set a no-nonsense example of what it is to be a man…but a man of character. They first had some intensive schooling themselves. Some of the kids washed out. Some expressed to my son at the end how it had made a difference in their lives, including one kid who had tried to rough him up during athletics and learned he had made a mistake.
Kids who successfully completed the program were allowed to then attend, for free, a school in New York, run by Opus Dei, the academic excellence of which is beyond question. “Crotona” I think is the name of it.
Every once in awhile, the “teachers” were invited to Murray Hill. They were served an excellent but sparing meal in the dining room there, then repaired to a very nice lounge where various Opus Dei members would expound on various topics; religion, business, the law, physics, government…everything imaginable, and all from first-hand experience. Some of their credentials were incredible. He met the guy who designed the chapel at Murray Hill; a very accomplished architect named Henry Menzies. You can google his website. Those “discussion sessions” are a regular feature of life at Murray Hill, and my son felt privileged to be able to even be at them. The people he met were anything but removed from the “real world”.
My son admired the people in the various levels of participation. Never did he feel anybody was being coerced into anything. Never did he feel he, himself was being coerced or bamboozled into becoming a member. But he knew from the beginning that this was a life that required a lot.
At the end, he could understand how people would do it. He likened it to being a Marine in a way. You could get there, but it would take every bit of effort you had. The Marines want particular sorts, and are unashamed in that. So, I guess, does Opus Dei. You really have to want to do it in order to do it. Some people don’t. Some people think they do, then figure out that they don’t.
At my son’s graduation, one of his close friends’ sisters, a very accomplished and wonderful young lady, mentioned that she was going to join Opus Dei shortly. After talking to her a bit, I could picture her making it. She explained to me how she had an interest in perhaps working in a school Opus Dei operates for young black women, where they’re taught to be professional caterers, hoteliers and accomplished chefs. Not the worst project anyone could think of.
That’s it. Everything I know about it is second hand. But one can’t say anything bad about Opus Dei to my son without challenge.
While my son was a freshman in law school, he was invited to work for the summer in an Opus Dei school in the South Bronx.
Well, the South Bronx is a far cry from Murray Hill. The purpose of the school was to tutor young black and Latino toughs in some academic subjects, athletics and lessons on character. I have no idea how they recruit the students; with the parents perhaps. I suspect some are told by the juvenile office to go, or else.
The living conditions were spartan, and the neighborhood where the kids came from and where the staff lived, was beyond awful. The kids were tough and street-smart. The “teachers” were expected to set a no-nonsense example of what it is to be a man…but a man of character. They first had some intensive schooling themselves. Some of the kids washed out. Some expressed to my son at the end how it had made a difference in their lives, including one kid who had tried to rough him up during athletics and learned he had made a mistake.
Kids who successfully completed the program were allowed to then attend, for free, a school in New York, run by Opus Dei, the academic excellence of which is beyond question. “Crotona” I think is the name of it.
Every once in awhile, the “teachers” were invited to Murray Hill. They were served an excellent but sparing meal in the dining room there, then repaired to a very nice lounge where various Opus Dei members would expound on various topics; religion, business, the law, physics, government…everything imaginable, and all from first-hand experience. Some of their credentials were incredible. He met the guy who designed the chapel at Murray Hill; a very accomplished architect named Henry Menzies. You can google his website. Those “discussion sessions” are a regular feature of life at Murray Hill, and my son felt privileged to be able to even be at them. The people he met were anything but removed from the “real world”.
My son admired the people in the various levels of participation. Never did he feel anybody was being coerced into anything. Never did he feel he, himself was being coerced or bamboozled into becoming a member. But he knew from the beginning that this was a life that required a lot.
At the end, he could understand how people would do it. He likened it to being a Marine in a way. You could get there, but it would take every bit of effort you had. The Marines want particular sorts, and are unashamed in that. So, I guess, does Opus Dei. You really have to want to do it in order to do it. Some people don’t. Some people think they do, then figure out that they don’t.
At my son’s graduation, one of his close friends’ sisters, a very accomplished and wonderful young lady, mentioned that she was going to join Opus Dei shortly. After talking to her a bit, I could picture her making it. She explained to me how she had an interest in perhaps working in a school Opus Dei operates for young black women, where they’re taught to be professional caterers, hoteliers and accomplished chefs. Not the worst project anyone could think of.
That’s it. Everything I know about it is second hand. But one can’t say anything bad about Opus Dei to my son without challenge.
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bear06
Guest
I think you’re talking about Lexington College in Chicago. It is specific to women but not to one race. My daughter and my niece have an interest in going there and my niece attended their summer program.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Perhaps I assumed that from photos I have seen. Looking it up, it appears 44% of the student body is black, and 39% is Hispanic. The remainder, one assumes, is white.
Regardless, it seems to me to be a great school and a worthy Opus Dei project. Opus Dei is big on competence in one’s work, and evidently Marriott, for one, thinks that’s what those young women have.
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IronHammer
Guest
Perhaps this is one of the things that is done with all the donations and funding OD receives from members, numeraries, cooperators, etc… They use the money to provide solid, quality education for disadvantaged youth. It looks like, as in any other organization, they are looking for leaders with character, charisma and courage.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that OD adheres to the same notion of communal wealth that Peter and Paul espoused. Every believing Christian gave what they had or could to the Church, who in turn ensured that Christians didn’t go hungry or homeless. Widows were taken care of along with every other need of the Catholic community. The “horror” stories of numeraries having to hand over all their money and bank accounts seems to indicate this, at least in my mind.
These are very high and noble ideals but this form of self-rule can so easily be subverted to serve the desires of evil men.
Could it be, that the hierarchy of OD is so loose that the various centers around the world have so much freedom and so little oversight that they do, in fact, become controlled by evil forces. Turning the high ideal, in that center anyway, into something far less than ideal for it’s members?
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I can’t speak to its governance, or the adequacy or inadequacy thereof. It is impossible, in this “Vale of Tears” to totally ensure that no individual, in any organization, could possibly do anything ill-advised or wrong. Nor is it possible to ensure that no disappointed or disgruntled or even disturbed member could possibly think of the organization in a negative way, or express that thinking to others.
As I said, my knowledge of OD is very limited, and second hand from my son. From that limited perspective, I can say that not one complaint against OD was verified in the slightest by my son’s experience or observations. On the contrary, OD was far more impressive than he expected.
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Dempsey1919
Guest
While Opus Dei may do some good, there is still no getting away from the fact that a lot of people have had bad experiences with the group. Google ODAN and you will find plenty of stories to confirm this.
I like the fact that they appear to be loyal and faithful Catholics but I still have some severe reservations about them. Sadly, I would not be able to investigate them myself as they have a very small presence here in England. They are not within my diocese, and I can’t see them setting up anytime soon. Even if they did, the catholic community were I come from is very small from what I can tell and I don’t think many would join.
I like the fact that they appear to be loyal and faithful Catholics but I still have some severe reservations about them. Sadly, I would not be able to investigate them myself as they have a very small presence here in England. They are not within my diocese, and I can’t see them setting up anytime soon. Even if they did, the catholic community were I come from is very small from what I can tell and I don’t think many would join.
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