...or tolerate those who do."

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jimmy_B
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Jimmy_B

Guest
The USMA at West Point’s Cadet Honor Code reads simply that -
"A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do."

I believe that this is also a good Christian code… I’ve been in some discussions here at CAF over the years, with some of my non-Catholic Christian friends regarding, “judging others”.
  • How can one avoid sin or not tolerate sins, like lies, cheating or stealing if he doesn’t judge that behavior in the first place?
  • Are we allowed to judge sin and thereby judge other people?
  • What do you think about West Point’s Honor Code?
Your thoughts?
 
Jimmy_B said:
The USMA at West Point’s Cadet Honor Code reads simply that -
"A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do."

I believe that this is also a good Christian code… I’ve been in some discussions here at CAF over the years, with some of my non-Catholic Christian friends regarding, “judging others”.
  • How can one avoid sin or not tolerate sins, like lies, cheating or stealing if he doesn’t judge that behavior in the first place?
  • Are we allowed to judge sin and thereby judge other people?
  • What do you think about West Point’s Honor Code?
Your thoughts?
Click to expand...
Interesting. Not sure what to think of that. It’d probably be hard to uphold in regular modern society.
 
the trouble nowadays is that people incorrectly take the term “judging” to mean “you’re saying bad stuff about me”, and say “don’t judge me” when they really mean “i want you to validate my sin”.

by the dictionary, to judge is to form an opinion or conclusion, so you’re exactly right. we as christians must consider our potential words and actions, and by the guidance of the holy spirit and the scriptures, judge whether or not they are sinful.

however, the human temptation to exalt oneself as righteous and others as sinful is great, and that’s what the oft-quoted passage in matthew 7 is referring to - it’s a reminder that divine judgement is the exclusive privilege of god, and that we are to help our fellow christians struggle with their own sin, not lord it over them.

(as for your third question, it’s dead on the mark.)
 
Jimmy_B said:
The USMA at West Point’s Cadet Honor Code reads simply that -
"A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do."

I believe that this is also a good Christian code… I’ve been in some discussions here at CAF over the years, with some of my non-Catholic Christian friends regarding, “judging others”.
  • How can one avoid sin or not tolerate sins, like lies, cheating or stealing if he doesn’t judge that behavior in the first place?
Click to expand...
Saint Paul is very clear in this matter:

"(…)** not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber**—not even to eat with such a one. " 1 Cor 5: 11
Jimmy_B said:
  • Are we allowed to judge sin and thereby judge other people?
Click to expand...
"For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.”1 Cor 5: 12-13

"Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment." Jn 7:24

"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? Rom 2:1-2
Jimmy_B said:
  • What do you think about West Point’s Honor Code?Your thoughts?
Click to expand...
It is according to the teachings I just quote.👍

Hope this will help
In the love of God,
Gloria

.
 
lantheria said:
the trouble nowadays is that people incorrectly take the term “judging” to mean “you’re saying bad stuff about me”, and say “don’t judge me” when they really mean “i want you to validate my sin”.

by the dictionary, to judge is to form an opinion or conclusion, so you’re exactly right. we as christians must consider our potential words and actions, and by the guidance of the holy spirit and the scriptures, judge whether or not they are sinful.

however, the human temptation to exalt oneself as righteous and others as sinful is great, and that’s what the oft-quoted passage in matthew 7 is referring to - it’s a reminder that divine judgement is the exclusive privilege of god, and that we are to help our fellow christians struggle with their own sin, not lord it over them.

(as for your third question, it’s dead on the mark.)
Click to expand...
Great answer! And I’m so glad that you included - “…*divine judgment is the exclusive privilege of god.”, *In other words, Final Judgment; an important distinction.
Welcome to my friends list.
 
Gloria_de_G said:
Saint Paul is very clear in this matter:

"(…)** not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber**—not even to eat with such a one. " 1 Cor 5: 11

"For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.”1 Cor 5: 12-13

"Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment." Jn 7:24

"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? Rom 2:1-2

It is according to the teachings I just quote.👍

Hope this will help
In the love of God,
Gloria

.
Click to expand...
Excellent post! I’m really surprised haven’t received any “push back” on this yet.
 
lantheria said:
the trouble nowadays is that people incorrectly take the term “judging” to mean “you’re saying bad stuff about me”, and say “don’t judge me” when they really mean “i want you to validate my sin”.

by the dictionary, to judge is to form an opinion or conclusion, so you’re exactly right. we as christians must consider our potential words and actions, and by the guidance of the holy spirit and the scriptures, judge whether or not they are sinful.

however, the human temptation to exalt oneself as righteous and others as sinful is great, and that’s what the oft-quoted passage in matthew 7 is referring to - it’s a reminder that divine judgement is the exclusive privilege of god, and that we are to help our fellow christians struggle with their own sin, not lord it over them.

(as for your third question, it’s dead on the mark.)
Click to expand...
👍
 
Jimmy_B said:
The USMA at West Point’s Cadet Honor Code reads simply that -
"A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do."

I believe that this is also a good Christian code… I’ve been in some discussions here at CAF over the years, with some of my non-Catholic Christian friends regarding, “judging others”.
  • How can one avoid sin or not tolerate sins, like lies, cheating or stealing if he doesn’t judge that behavior in the first place?
  • Are we allowed to judge sin and thereby judge other people?
  • What do you think about West Point’s Honor Code?
Your thoughts?
Click to expand...
Here’s an interesting biblical comparison:

Romans 1:29-32 (NIV)

29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;(B) 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
(emphasis added)

Thanks for the question!
God bless
 
We use our judgment all the time, and we judge others all the time as well (if we hire a babysitter, aren’t we going to judge them?). We are warned in scripture that in the manner we judge others that is how we will be judged, that doesn’t say not to in the common sense way of judging. Also, Paul is clear that the leader of a congregation has the obligation to judge within that congregation, not for the purpose of who is or is not saved, but rather so that one believer doesn’t present a stumbling-block to the rest of the flock.

As an example, say two people in the congregation are having an affair together and it becomes known in public. The pastor is within his shepherding right to kick the offending people out of the congregation lest others fall pray to the same sin or think it is ok. The kicking out is meant for both the offender and the flock. It should help the offender(s) repent, and it should help the flock avoid stumbling.

The flip side is that it should always be done out of love and concern, and if the behavior changes, it should be forgiven and they should be let back in and loved.
 
I think it’s important for us to make a distinction between judging BELIEVERS and judging NON-BELIEVERS.

That passage in I Corinthians 5 makes the distinction. "I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people. I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called BROTHER if he should be an immoral person…

I also think we have to determine just what “associating with” means.

I think it’s clear that we are to associate with non-believers, even sinners, because that’s how we give witness to them of our faith and of Jesus Christ. WE are Jesus to them.

But it says that we aren’t to associate with believers who practice sin.

To me, a person who claims to be a Christian and comes to church and gets involved with the Church, but still practices immorality or stealing, etc. is someone that I should have nothing to do with. Of course I will nod politely and wave to that person when I see them at church. That’s just being polite. But I will not go out with that person, or invite them to my house, or go to their house.

And then there are those Christians who have fallen away and are estranged from the Church. James 5:19-20 makes it clear that we are to work to rescue those who have strayed from the faith. So I would say, YES, we should associate with these people.

Does this all make sense?
 
Jimmy_B said:
How can one avoid sin or not tolerate sins, like lies, cheating or stealing if he doesn’t judge that behavior in the first place?
Click to expand...
The word ‘tolerate’ suggests a moral judgment. We tolerate things we do not like or agree with. Typically we don’t use the word concerning mere likes. For example I don’t tolerate my wife liking the color pink, however I might tolerate her painting a room pink because I have to look at it. Most often when saying we tolerate something we are talking about bad things like behavior or ideas. We don’t tolerate good things because we don’t merely put up with what we think is good. The word tolerate is linked with the concept of ‘badness’. Bad is a moral world. In order to know what is good or bad we must make moral judgements. The word tolerance would be meaningless unless we can make moral judgements.

To answer your question if you can’t judge behavior then not only can you not tolerate sins but the word tolerance loses all meaning. It is our experience that we do have the capacity to tolerate which means we can morally judge behavior. And I imagine most of us have tolerated behavior at some point in our lives. We have the capacity for judgment and tolerance so it is not an issue of capability. It would seem self refuting to have a moral system that condemns moral judgements because you would have to make a moral judgement to condemn making moral judgements. Despite what non believers say Christianity is very reasonable and thus does not make an unreasonable claim like you can not judge the behavior of others. And if any one really believed you should make no moral judgements then to be consistent and live out their beliefs they would need to advocate for doing away with courts, prison and law enforcement since that is their essence.
 
I do not believe I am qualified to be anyone’s judge. Yes of course we must determine how are to live…and by that dedicated example to live out the Truth before our peers and the world.

What the “judging” passages suggest that “Do not judge.for you will be judged by the same standards you judge others”

I may believe in my own moral superiority above others…I my be able to view this world and the circumstances that living in this world sometimes inflicts sorrow and tries our hearts in only black and white ideas of morality. I do not for one moment believe even though I might look “down” on “the Other” in our midst and “claim” I have a Complete and Sure Knowledge of the circumstances of their lives…the “lostness” that may have motivated their choices…I do not have omniscience nor do I know their thoughts and hearts.

I am always reminded of the two men who went to the Temple to pray when we have these discussions. “God I thank you ok am not like that. Sinner…yet the “sinner” would not even lift his eyes to heaven…who went from the Temple justified?”

I am in such need of His Mercy and Grace…I’m so glad there were those who “Minded the Light” and in my Broken-news was Pointed to the One who “knows my anxious heart” and in the One who loves me most…and knows every circumstance of my life…The One who did not give or treat me in the way I deserved… But gave me what I Needed.

“Judging” others carries a heavy price tag… I’m not so sure I can live up to my own standards let alone believe I can judge others with a Sure and Compete Knowledge
 
There are a lot of outstanding, well worded posts here, thank you!

I think that “tolerating” the behavior of others has a whole new meaning once you have children. I also think that it should apply to certain occupations and positions. For example, felons can’t become police officers and people need to pass security clearances for certain government jobs. These positions also have rules against even associating with known felons, drug addicts, drug dealers and so on.

Is there anyone here who believes that this is somehow un-Christian, or that it in some way violates the bible verse regarding, judging others? After all, these type of rules were created by men and are enforced by men.

Your thoughts.
 
Jimmy_B said:
The USMA at West Point’s Cadet Honor Code reads simply that -
"A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do."

I believe that this is also a good Christian code… I’ve been in some discussions here at CAF over the years, with some of my non-Catholic Christian friends regarding, “judging others”.
  • How can one avoid sin or not tolerate sins, like lies, cheating or stealing if he doesn’t judge that behavior in the first place?
  • Are we allowed to judge sin and thereby judge other people?
  • What do you think about West Point’s Honor Code?
Your thoughts?
Click to expand...
 
lantheria said:
the trouble nowadays is that people incorrectly take the term “judging” to mean “you’re saying bad stuff about me”, and say “don’t judge me” when they really mean “i want you to validate my sin”.
Click to expand...
Yep.

It almost always means: you think I’m doing something wrong. I don’t believe I am. How dare you tell me that it’s wrong to do this!

And the irony of ironies is that whenever someone says, “You’re judging me!” guess what that person is doing…

yep. He’s judging.

:eek:

I don’t believe it’s wrong to judge. In fact, it’s kind of a dum dum person who doesn’t judge. How could one go through life without judging?

We are commanded to judge in the Scriptures–see John 24:7.

What we are forbidden to do is condemn. That’s above our pay grade.

But to judge? To discern between right and wrong?

Of course we must do this!!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top