Oral contraceptives

  • Thread starter Thread starter samaritana
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Please watch this video everyone. After watching it, could you be intimate with your spouse during your fertile days while on the pill, knowing what could happen?

http:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiCU46_lWeE&feature=player_embedded#!
Even if you and countless others feel like you shouldn’t have sex on the pill that has no bearing on what the Catholic church teaches. You have every right to mutually decide with your husband to abstain, but the CC does not require that. A YouTube video may convince others to abstain as well, but even if it does it still does not mean that the “must” in order to be in line with the CC’s teachings.
 
Even if you and countless others feel like you shouldn’t have sex on the pill that has no bearing on what the Catholic church teaches. You have every right to mutually decide with your husband to abstain, but the CC does not require that. A YouTube video may convince others to abstain as well, but even if it does it still does not mean that the “must” in order to be in line with the CC’s teachings.
Where can you show me the document that proves the Catholic Church ALLOWS a person to use the pill for medical reasons and does not have to abstain from relations?

I have seen from posts here that Humanae Vitae is quoted to show that medical intervention can be permissible even though it may have a sterility affect. However, Blessed Pope John Paul’s Humanae Vitae does not say one can use medical intervention if abortion is an affect of the medical intervention.

Where is the exact CHURCH document that states that an abortifacient result is permissible?
 
Back at ya, Elizabethofport, please show a document that says one cannot use BCP for other medical purpose and continue relations. I do not think there is document with teaching level authority, for lack of a better term, to support either position. One must use one’s prudential judgment (or really the couple’s prudential judgment) and people can come to different conclusions about that.

FWIW, I agree with you, and if my bride and I were in that situation I think I would favor abstention until not using the possible abortifacient. However, I do not think it is accurate to state that the Church teaches that a couple using BCPs for other medicinal purposes must abstain.
 
The pill is also not 100% effective. People have and can conceive and carry to term a baby, it isn’t common but it is not unheard of either.
It happened to me!! And I was supposed to be unable to conceive… God REALLY wanted me to be a mommy. Also, I continued to take the pill 4-5 weeks into my pregnancy, not realizing I was pregnant. It was for medical therapy. although I ultimately found more healing through alternative medicine.
 
It happened to me!! And I was supposed to be unable to conceive… God REALLY wanted me to be a mommy. Also, I continued to take the pill 4-5 weeks into my pregnancy, not realizing I was pregnant. It was for medical therapy. although I ultimately found more healing through alternative medicine.
Wow! Amazing! I also know a co-worker who conceived on the pill with only one fallopian tube! So, break through ovulations are not so uncommon.

The moral question we must ask ourselves is: Does the abortifacient quality of the birth control pill disappear simply because the married Catholic are given permission medically by doctors to use it? So, it’s like “oh well baby, I was given permission”.

Abstaining for 7 to 14 days is not hard. If it means not risking the death of a newborn conceived baby, it is the moral action to take.
 
Back at ya, Elizabethofport, please show a document that says one cannot use BCP for other medical purpose and continue relations. I do not think there is document with teaching level authority, for lack of a better term, to support either position. One must use one’s prudential judgment (or really the couple’s prudential judgment) and people can come to different conclusions about that.

FWIW, I agree with you, and if my bride and I were in that situation I think I would favor abstention until not using the possible abortifacient. However, I do not think it is accurate to state that the Church teaches that a couple using BCPs for other medicinal purposes must abstain.
Here’s your document from Priests for Life:

priestsforlife.org/qa/question.aspx?id=305
 
@elizabethofport

OK, not exactly magisterial teaching there. It is answered by a medical doctor. Do you have something from, oh, I don’t know, an encyclical, the CDF, a pontifical academy, an appropriate congregation, etc., that is directed to all the faithful that addresses this particular point? I do not think such a document exists, or EWTN, ALL, etc., would already have it posted and easily accessible. I submit that the Church has not definitively taught what you propose that it does. All of the examples, both pro and con, in this thread have involved the application of accepted moral principles to the particular situation by various reputable sources, but not one has cited a controlling document.

I suggest that in apologetics it is important not to make claims that one cannot back up, nor to state things as defined or promulgated teaching when it is not really so. Again, I think I agree with your analysis, but by stating your position as fact I think you are overstating the case.
 
@elizabethofport

OK, not exactly magisterial teaching there. It is answered by a medical doctor. Do you have something from, oh, I don’t know, an encyclical.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to stress the church’s teaching.

Pope John Paul’s encyclical Humanae Vitae states:
  1. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever.

This would refer to a hysterectomy for example to cure uterine cancer, or possibly a medicine for a man that’s side effect might leave him sterile. It would not refer to the IUD or birth control pill, because although both do indeed cause an “impediment to procreation”, they also directly are the cause of many early abortions. In the above paragraph, Pope John Paul ONLY mentions “impediment to procreation” as a consequence to the therapeutic measures, he does not include an unintended abortion.

Because scientifically we KNOW that the pill thins the uterus so much so to prevent implantation, and because we KNOW there are breakthrough ovulations; we KNOW pregnancies are definitely terminated through the use of the pill and IUD. This therefore is the very information that excludes the use of the pill and IUD and other abortifacient medications to be used therapeutically unless of course they are accompanied by…
abstinence. Abstinence is the key.
 
This is an article from lifesitenews that talks about the** Pontifical Academy’s decision** to NOT allow the morning after pill. It is completely relevant also with concerns to the regular pill because they BOTH share the abortifacient quality.

lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2008/feb/08022906

LifeSiteNews.com asked Bishop Sgreccia if there was an exception in cases of rape. The President of the Pontifical Academy for Life replied, “No. It is not able to prevent the rape.** But it is able to eliminate the embryo. ** It is thus the second negative intervention on the woman (the first being the rape itself).”

Monsignor Andrew R. Baker, a professor at the Pontifical University of Saint Thomas Aquinas (the Angelicum) in Rome, told LifeSiteNews.com that the unchanged published opinion of the Pontifical Academy on the question is the “highest level” of advice given by the Holy See.

Monsignor Baker explained that **the possibility that the pill could abort a child made its administration absolutely prohibited. ** Speaking of the abortifacient nature of the morning after pill, he said, “If it is in any way that possibility it cannot be used because it does attack life.”
 
OK, now the topic has changed to Plan B and rape. That is not the same as your originally asserted position that “the Church” requires a couple to abstain if a couple is using BCP’s for medicinal purposes. I continue to submit that no such document or teaching exists.

I understand that it logically follows, but it is also possible to come to the opposite conclusion under the double effect. As I understand it, your whole line of argument is based on a series of inferences, but those are a) not the same as proof and b) not what the Church actually teaches and c) I think not the majority position among those who have addressed it.

BTW, to throw a further monkey wrench, I think Fr. Fehlner is wrong, as rape is not consensual relations and is already so disordered that the normal thinking on contraception does not apply.
 
The fact that I have to explain this OVER and OVER is getting pretty sad.
  1. What determines the morality of an act?
In moral theology, an act is the knowing choice of a human person. Each knowing choice is an act, and each act is subject to the eternal moral law. Some acts are moral, and other acts are immoral. An immoral act is a sinful act. Sin is a knowingly chosen immoral act.

The morality of any act is based on three fonts (or sources):

(1) the intention or purpose for which the act is done,
(2) the inherent moral meaning of the act as determined by its moral object,
(3) the circumstances of the act, especially the consequences.

To be moral, each and every act must have three good fonts of morality. The intention must be good, the moral object must be good,** and the good consequences must outweigh any bad consequences.** If any one font is bad, the act is immoral. If an act is immoral due to a bad intention, the same type of act may be moral with a good intention. If an act is immoral due to the circumstances, the same type of act may be moral in different circumstances.

Quoted from catechism.cc/articles/QA.htm

BECAUSE a real and possible consequence of not abstaining during the fertile time of a woman’s cycle can produce a fertilized egg, and that fertilized egg can be lost to a hostile environment created by the artificial hormones of the pill, THE CONSEQUENCES deem the act as immoral. The “good” consequences" of helping a woman through her “problem” is NEVER outweighed by the loss of life that can and does indeed occur.
 
**The fact that I have to explain this OVER and OVER is getting pretty sad. **
I’m not sure how often you read CAF, but I saw you only have a few posts.

There are many posters who go over the same thing over and over, explain it 100 different ways, and the next day there will be another thread saying “But what if…?” 😛

The pull our secular society has on us is pretty strong. I’m a pretty intelligent person, and a few years ago I bought all that stuff about the pill being liberating, etc. It’s an attractive message. Abstinence (periodic or total) is not attractive. We are taught by almost every influence to just seek out the attractive and immediately pleasurable. And the Church is either a well-intentioned but old-fashioned institution that doesn’t get it, or is actively seeking the destruction of the entire world because they’re a bunch of big bullies.

This perspective warps all kind of thinking. You are fighting an uphill battle. It’s a good one, but…if you stick around CAF you’ll find that you are not the only one repeating yourself. A lot. 😉
 
Further explanation : From here Ronald L. Conte, Catholic Theologian
catechism.cc/articles/QA.htm

Is the use of contraception for medical purposes, by a married sexually active woman, justified by the principle of double effect?

No. The use of contraception is intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral. The principle of double effect never justifies an intrinsically evil act. Nothing can justify an intrinsically evil act because such an act is, in and of itself, morally illicit.

"Principle of Double Effect
"An action that is good in itself that has two effects–an intended and otherwise not reasonably attainable good effect, and an unintended yet foreseen evil effect–is licit, provided there is a due proportion between the intended good and the permitted evil….

“The object of the act must not be intrinsically contradictory to one’s fundamental commitment to God and neighbor (including oneself), that is, it must be a good action judged by its moral object (in other words, the action must not be intrinsically evil)….”
Ascension Health, Healthcare Ethics, Key Ethical Principles

The principle of double effect may justify an act only if the act is ‘good in itself,’ in other words, only if the act is not intrinsically evil. Whether an act is ‘good in itself’ or ‘evil in itself’ is determined by its moral object. This ‘object’ is the end in terms of morality toward which the act itself is inherently directed (or intrinsically ordered). When an act is inherently directed toward a morally evil end, then that act is inherently evil. So the moral object determines the essential moral nature (or inherent moral meaning) of the act, in and of itself, apart from intention (or purpose) and circumstances (including consequences).

Pope John Paul II: “These are the acts which, in the Church’s moral tradition, have been termed ‘intrinsically evil’ (intrinsece malum): they are such always and per se, in other words, on account of their very object, and quite apart from the ulterior intentions of the one acting and the circumstances. Consequently, without in the least denying the influence on morality exercised by circumstances and especially by intentions, the Church teaches that ‘there exist acts which per se and in themselves, independently of circumstances, are always seriously wrong by reason of their object’.” (Veritatis Splendor, n. 80; inner quote from Reconciliation and Penance, n. 17.)

Furthermore, the type of contraception which is used for medical purposes (e.g. to control an irregular period with excessive bleeding) is abortifacient contraception. This type of contraception can prevent conception by preventing ovulation. But it can also prevent the implantation of a conceived prenatal, causing the death of that very young human person.

Abortifacient contraception has two evil moral objects, to deprive the sexual act of the procreative meaning, and to deprive the innocent prenatal of life. Both moral objects are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral. The evil of abortion is worse than the evil of contraception. Intrinsically evil acts are never justified by intention or circumstances. Therefore, under the second font of morality, the act is a grave sin.

In addition, the harm done by the abortifacient action of the pill, especially if the woman is on the pill for an extended period of time so that a number of innocent prenatals are killed, far outweighs the good done by the medical effects of that same pill (regulating the woman’s cycle so as to provide some therapeutic benefit). In the third font of circumstances, the harm done by killing innocent prenatals gravely outweighs the medical benefits of the use. Therefore, under the third font of morality, the act is a grave sin.

Under the first font of intention, the intended end of obtaining the medical benefits of the contraceptive pill (as a therapeutic intervention) is good. However, a person’s intention includes not only the intended end, but also the intended means. In this case, the woman intends a good end (health), but by a means that is intrinsically evil. The intention to use an intrinsically evil act as a means to a good end is an evil intention. Therefore, under the first font of morality, the intention to use an abortifacient contraception while remaining sexually active is an evil intention, despite the good intended end. For, even as concerns intention, a good end never justifies an evil means.

In summary, the principle of double effect only justifies an act if the act has a good intention, and the act is not intrinsically evil, and the bad consequences (effects) do not outweigh the good consequences (effects). An act that is justified by the principle of double effect is an act that has three good fonts. But when abortifacient contraception is used for a medical (therapeutic) purpose, all three fonts of morality are bad. Even one bad font is sufficient to cause any act to be a sin. In this case, all three fonts are gravely immoral**. Therefore, it is in no way justifiable for a sexually active woman to use abortifacient contraception for a medical purpose**.
 
I’m not sure how often you read CAF, but I saw you only have a few posts.

There are many posters who go over the same thing over and over, explain it 100 different ways, and the next day there will be another thread saying “But what if…?” 😛

The pull our secular society has on us is pretty strong. I’m a pretty intelligent person, and a few years ago I bought all that stuff about the pill being liberating, etc. It’s an attractive message. Abstinence (periodic or total) is not attractive. We are taught by almost every influence to just seek out the attractive and immediately pleasurable. And the Church is either a well-intentioned but old-fashioned institution that doesn’t get it, or is actively seeking the destruction of the entire world because they’re a bunch of big bullies.

This perspective warps all kind of thinking. You are fighting an uphill battle. It’s a good one, but…if you stick around CAF you’ll find that you are not the only one repeating yourself. A lot. 😉
Yes, I’m new here. But, not really. I’ve only just recently decided to sign up and post. Catholic Answers is not new to me at all. What is NEW to me is the answer of the apologists saying that a woman does not have to abstain from sex while using the pill. Pope John’s Encyclical HV refers to therapeutic means like a hysterectomy. NOT, the pill. The pill when used, without abstinence can result in a fertilization.

Dear Blessed Pope John Paul, please bless the readers of this thread to understand your words. Please let them NOT be misinformed and believe they can use the pill for therapeutic means without any worries to the precious children they may loose while under this “treatment”. Amen
 
I realize you are new here, but I think it’s against forum rules to promote that site! The web owner managed to purchase a web domain that is made to sound like the actual Catechism of the Catholic Church in an attempt to lead others into his deceptive beliefs!!!

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8690486&highlight=ron+conte#post8690486

Please DO NOT allow youself to be sucked into his teachings, which Catholic Culture has deemed to be not in line with the Magisterium:
catholicculture.org/culture/reviews/view.cfm?recnum=3892&repos=2&subrepos=0&searchid=819853

Here is the actual site for the Catechism:old.usccb.org/catechism/text/
 
Wow! Amazing! I also know a co-worker who conceived on the pill with only one fallopian tube! So, break through ovulations are not so uncommon.

The moral question we must ask ourselves is: Does the abortifacient quality of the birth control pill disappear simply because the married Catholic are given permission medically by doctors to use it? So, it’s like “oh well baby, I was given permission”.

Abstaining for 7 to 14 days is not hard. If it means not risking the death of a newborn conceived baby, it is the moral action to take.
How is abstaining for “7-14 days” relevant to this discussion? If a woman is taking the pill for medical purposes, according to you she would have to abstain all the time.
 
How is abstaining for “7-14 days” relevant to this discussion? If a woman is taking the pill for medical purposes, according to you she would have to abstain all the time.
A woman’s egg is viable for 24 hours. If she ovulates from both ovaries in a month, it is possible to fertilize two eggs within a 48 hour time frame. However, the woman’s body, in preparation to conceive, creates mucus about a week before the ovulation that is thinned and thereby easily maneuverable by sperm. That is why a woman is fertile for more than just 48 hours-- the sperm continue to live and move up into the fallopian tubes. This is why NFP (Natural Family Planning) teaches a woman about her “fertile” signs.

If a couple have a grave reason to avoid a pregnancy, they should abstain during the fertile phase (which can vary, but usually is about 7 to 14 days out of a month). If a married woman is taking the pill, she should abstain during the days that she is normally fertile in order to avoid an early abortion.
 
A woman’s egg is viable for 24 hours. If she ovulates from both ovaries in a month, it is possible to fertilize two eggs within a 48 hour time frame. However, the woman’s body, in preparation to conceive, creates mucus about a week before the ovulation that is thinned and thereby easily maneuverable by sperm. That is why a woman is fertile for more than just 48 hours-- the sperm continue to live and move up into the fallopian tubes. This is why NFP (Natural Family Planning) teaches a woman about her “fertile” signs.

If a couple have a grave reason to avoid a pregnancy, they should abstain during the fertile phase (which can vary, but usually is about 7 to 14 days out of a month). If a married woman is taking the pill, she should abstain during the days that she is normally fertile in order to avoid an early abortion.
It wouldn’t work. A woman on the pill has artificial hormones mimiking and masking her body’s symptoms. Break through ovulations often occur due to missed or delayed pills. The body would not give the usual clues.
 
I am not promoting anyone. I am trying to reasonably show that a Catholic married couple MUST abstain from sexual relations while on the pill in order to avoid the possibility of killing newly conceived life.

I have called Couple to Couple League, Priest for Life, Pro-Life doctors and have received all the same information: abstinence must be adhered to. I have look onto EWTN, and various websites, and read Humanae Vitae, which all point to the inherent evil of contraception ESPECIALLY if it has abortifacient qualities.

My question is: if the pill has 2 evils, one being contraceptive in nature and the second being abortifacient in nature, why in the world is the married couple given carte blanche to have sex whenever without concerns for the GRAVER reason of the two, namely-- DEATH of AN INNOCENT BABY?

Respectfully,
elizabethofport
I realize you are new here, but I think it’s against forum rules to promote that site! The web owner managed to purchase a web domain that is made to sound like the actual Catechism of the Catholic Church in an attempt to lead others into his deceptive beliefs!!!

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8690486&highlight=ron+conte#post8690486

Please DO NOT allow youself to be sucked into his teachings, which Catholic Culture has deemed to be not in line with the Magisterium:
catholicculture.org/culture/reviews/view.cfm?recnum=3892&repos=2&subrepos=0&searchid=819853

Here is the actual site for the Catechism:old.usccb.org/catechism/text/
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top