oral sex

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This quote is from Rabbi Joseph Blair:

First, from my limited study of ‘normal’ psychology, and more specifically, of human sexuality, I understand that masturbation is a common, natural, and ‘normal’ activity for most human beings, starting at an early age; it becomes a problem when it is excessive, displaces other normal sexual outlets that may be available, or becomes abusive, compulsive, uncontrollable, or self-destructive. From this perspective, you, as an unmarried healthy male would very likely experience the urge to engage in this form of self-gratification – there is no surprise in that being the case.

Second, Judaism does not see sex as a ‘dirty’ or disgusting subject. Sex is a normal part of life, and when engaged in properly, in the correct setting with the appropriate partner, and with the proper kavanah, it is one of the sublime gifts G-d has provided to humanity, both for procreation and as an expression of deep and meaningful caring, communication, and sharing. So there is nothing about sex, including masturbation as a form of sex, that is forbidden in Judaism.

At the same time, I want to note that the act of masturbation is not approved fully in Judaism; by definition it violates the prohibition on ‘spilling seed’ that exists in historical and traditional Judaism. This is not often a topic of concern within the Reform ambit, so I will leave discussion of it to my colleagues in other movements. Suffice it to say that there are Jews for whom this aspect of the action will be troublesome; the sexual aspect is not the difficulty.

The term ‘sin’ as you have used it is perhaps misleading. In Judaism, we describe behaviors such as this (and most particularly at Yom Kippur – the day of atonement) as ‘missing the mark’, failing to live up to our highest ideals and self-aspirations. There is no assumption in Judaism that we always succeed in reaching our aspirational goals, but it is up to us to do our best to strive for them, and constantly to try to improve on how close we approach them over time.

In this view, masturbation is not a ‘sin’ as that is understood, but rather an action that is not reflective of the highest ideals we may hold. It does not render the person engaging in this action ‘unclean’, ‘tainted’, or ‘unfit’ in any way, and should not lead to any shaming, shunning, or self-abnegation. From a Reform perspective, it is not prohibited, ‘sinful’, or ‘dirty,’ and would be seen as a normal, healthy, and even acceptable behavior in which an unmarried person might engage in private.
So he mentions in Judaism that there is some thinking concerning a “wrongness” in spilling the seed. Perhaps this existed in Jesus’ day. But he does not mention the issue of the law requiring an heir. Perhaps to him (Onan) “spilling the seed” was his “birth control” and getting out of this requirement. I know of no teaching from or of Jesus concerning masturbation in and of itself as a wrong. But I do know there was a wrong in not conceiving an heir. This it seems; the church does not mention. So I am kind of left wondering “What’s going on here?”
 
Some women like it.

You should have taken her up on the invitation. There’s nothing morally wrong with a man’s orally stimulating his wife prior to intercourse. It’s a beautiful thing. Pleasuring each other is fine provided that the main rules that sexual relations between married people be uniative and open to the transmission of life.
Well what she said was “Do you want to know what I taste like” I apologize if this is too graphic. But anyway, no I didn’t particularly. There is tinea cruris not to mention STDs.
 
Regarding the previous post quoting a Jewish Rabbi:

The Jewish Study Bible (Oxford U. Press) states that there is no central authority (“magisterium” if you will) in Judaism and there is (are ) no official interpretation(s) of any verse(s) in scripture.

My recent reading suggests that Reform Judaism rejects the Torah, not because it was or was not inspired, but that it was inspired, if at all, for the time in which it was written. There is no dogma in Reform Judaism and the only rule that the assemblies seem to have agreed to, besides being an association, is that no one can be a Jew and belong to another religion at the same time (probably aimed at some who might want to juggle being Jewish and Christian).

Reconstructionist Judaism seems to be purely secular and more ethnic in orientation, although it seems that they have Rabbis, for which reason I do not know.

Various Reform congregations have rejected any sexist rules from the Hebrew Scriptures, so they have female Rabbis, for example, and women can divorce their husbands with a “get” (which was always available to men to divorce their wives, as stated in the Hebrew Bible).

So, if you want to seek out a Jewish precedent for anything, you’re standing on shrinking ground. You might get opposing viewpoints from different Rabbis.

I’m just saying all this as a caution to quoting Judaism as an authority here.

One aspect of the Catholic position is that marital relations have to be open to conception. I’ve heard people propose using birth control yet simultaneously alleging to be “open” to conception. It’s hard to pin down individual Catholics.

Best to recall the admonition of St. Paul that God is not mocked.
 
Regarding the previous post quoting a Jewish Rabbi:

The Jewish Study Bible (Oxford U. Press) states that there is no central authority (“magisterium” if you will) in Judaism and there is (are ) no official interpretation(s) of any verse(s) in scripture.

My recent reading suggests that Reform Judaism rejects the Torah, not because it was or was not inspired, but that it was inspired, if at all, for the time in which it was written. There is no dogma in Reform Judaism and the only rule that the assemblies seem to have agreed to, besides being an association, is that no one can be a Jew and belong to another religion at the same time (probably aimed at some who might want to juggle being Jewish and Christian).

Reconstructionist Judaism seems to be purely secular and more ethnic in orientation, although it seems that they have Rabbis, for which reason I do not know.

Various Reform congregations have rejected any sexist rules from the Hebrew Scriptures, so they have female Rabbis, for example, and women can divorce their husbands with a “get” (which was always available to men to divorce their wives, as stated in the Hebrew Bible).

So, if you want to seek out a Jewish precedent for anything, you’re standing on shrinking ground. You might get opposing viewpoints from different Rabbis.

I’m just saying all this as a caution to quoting Judaism as an authority here.

One aspect of the Catholic position is that marital relations have to be open to conception. I’ve heard people propose using birth control yet simultaneously alleging to be “open” to conception. It’s hard to pin down individual Catholics.

Best to recall the admonition of St. Paul that God is not mocked.
Maybe not at this time. But there have been various ages in the Hebrew and ancient history also. I’m sure the Judges had some say in doctrines at one time. The Sanhedrin at some point. The Essenes. Perhaps the Royal family the and the Priesthood’s family the Kohen or Cohens have a lot of knowledge. It’s not so much what is believed now that I am concerned with but at the time this was written, what did it mean to them?
 
I personally find oral sex to be grotesque. As a man who is completely straight and attracted to women, oral sex is not something that turns me on. It seems unnatural and rather animalistic to me.
I’ve always felt repulsed also and always cringe when the subject appears in this forum. Apologies to the OP, who is simply asking a question relevant to him and his wife, but…no it’s not natural, and seems unhygienic. Explicit sexual questions in a Catholic forums also seem to make Catholics seem sex-obsessed. I don’t know what non-Catholics think when they visit here! 😊

God bless the OP and his wife. 🙂
 
Offenses against chastity…

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.”

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm
 
First, from my limited study of ‘normal’ psychology, and more specifically, of human sexuality, I understand that masturbation is a common, natural, and ‘normal’ activity for most human beings, starting at an early age; it becomes a problem when it is excessive, displaces other normal sexual outlets that may be available, or becomes abusive, compulsive, uncontrollable, or self-destructive. From this perspective, you, as an unmarried healthy male would very likely experience the urge to engage in this form of self-gratification – there is no surprise in that being the case.
Of course. It’s just as natural as children defying proper authority, lying or trying to steal a toy or candy. There are lots of sins we are attracted to. Masturbation is one of them and I would be very surprised at any man who got through his teenage years without some frequency of masturbation. It doesn’t make any man horrible, but its still a sin, and so disordered. Its something men should learn to control early on. The body will do what it needs to do naturally without “manual control”. This will teach discipline and control and prevent this behavior from becoming “abusive” or “compulsive”.
Second, Judaism does not see sex as a ‘dirty’ or disgusting subject. Sex is a normal part of life, and when engaged in properly, in the correct setting with the appropriate partner, and with the proper kavanah, it is one of the sublime gifts G-d has provided to humanity, both for procreation and as an expression of deep and meaningful caring, communication, and sharing. So there is nothing about sex, including masturbation as a form of sex, that is forbidden in Judaism.
Catholicism does not see sex as “dirty” or disgusting either. Masturbation is not sex. Of course, that word has been mangled and turned to mean all sorts of things, but proper “sex”, the way it was defined, and the way the Church defines it, I believe, requires two people of the opposite gender having vaginal intercourse.
In this view, masturbation is not a ‘sin’ as that is understood, but rather an action that is not reflective of the highest ideals we may hold. It does not render the person engaging in this action ‘unclean’, ‘tainted’, or ‘unfit’ in any way, and should not lead to any shaming, shunning, or self-abnegation. From a Reform perspective, it is not prohibited, ‘sinful’, or ‘dirty,’ and would be seen as a normal, healthy, and even acceptable behavior in which an unmarried person might engage in private.
Maybe Catholicism is just a bit simpler in its definitions. Basically anything that distorts the natural order and interferes in our relationship with God is sinful. The Church calls Catholics to be saints, so yes, it is “strict” in relation to many other religions. But then again, you’re just one confession away from forgiveness. Heavy demands, but easy and accessible forgiveness- even for the bigger sins!
 
Offenses against chastity…

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.”

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm
That’s interesting. If you’re going to take the interpretation that you seem to hold to, then probably touching one’s spouse in any way in the genital region for sexual stimulation would be wrong. Correct? In other words, if you’re going to take it that way, then I guess even a spouse touching another spouse by hand is problematic.

I wonder about the implications for a married couple… I can’t imagine having any sex life with my wife if I was in constant fear of sin throughout the act, afraid of touching her in the wrong place, and vice versa for her. That seems way over the top.
 
That’s interesting. If you’re going to take the interpretation that you seem to hold to, then probably touching one’s spouse in any way in the genital region for sexual stimulation would be wrong. Correct? In other words, if you’re going to take it that way, then I guess even a spouse touching another spouse by hand is problematic.

I wonder about the implications for a married couple… I can’t imagine having any sex life with my wife if I was in constant fear of sin throughout the act, afraid of touching her in the wrong place, and vice versa for her. That seems way over the top.
Your argument is with the Church not me as the quote is from the official Catechism of the Catholic Church, and your interpretation is a narrow one.
You may like to read the catechism and what the encyclicals teach about married love and life which give a fuller understanding of spousal and conjugal love.
God’s blessings to you and your wife.
 
Your argument is with the Church not me as the quote is from the official Catechism of the Catholic Church,
I’m not sure that I have any particular argument at all. If there is any, it’s not with the catechism but with a particular interpretation of the catechism that I believed you were trying to support.
and your interpretation is a narrow one.
The interpretation I speak of is one that I thought belonged to you, but perhaps I am mistaken.
You may like to read the catechism and what the encyclicals teach about married love and life which give a fuller understanding of spousal and conjugal love.
God’s blessings to you and your wife.
Yeah, I have. God bless.
 
I’m not sure that I have any particular argument at all. If there is any, it’s not with the catechism but with a particular interpretation of the catechism that I believed you were trying to support.

The interpretation I speak of is one that I thought belonged to you, but perhaps I am mistaken.

Yeah, I have. God bless.
No, just posting the link and quote is all, in response to Little David’s post as he was quoting a source not consistent with Catholic teaching on the subject.
 
No, just posting the link and quote is all, in response to Little David’s post as he was quoting a source not consistent with Catholic teaching on the subject.
In mentioning §2352 of the catechism you should mention ¶¶2 and so on. Masturbation and the level of sin depends on culpability too. And maturity. I am 43 and I know if I didn’t from time to time do this act. And it’s not that I get any thrill out of it. Well I quite probably would go into those messy wet dreams and you don’t want that. Maybe there’s something wrong I don’t know but what is is what is. I know this is supposed to be a teen thing but I never really “grew” outta it. I don’t believe anyway.
 
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